WOLF CONTENT

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:06 pm

The reason for announcing the following information regarding wolf content is so that you (the general public) can make up your own minds about the rumors, speculation and gossip and draw your own conclusions as to the reality of the overall situation. Then we can have a healthy discussion about what it all means, the possible implications and how we use this information in a positive and constructive way to further progress the Tamaskan breed.

Although rumors of wolf content in the Tamaskan breed have been rife for years, until now there was no substantial evidence of such. One DNA parentage test was conducted several years ago (on dogs that were not microchipped and only identified by name) to 'prove' that Valko (a Finnish dog) was 'Whitefang' - the sire of Summer and Skye. However, there was no DNA evidence linking Valko to his own sire (alleged to be Boogie, a high content wolfdog). Without a direct clear-cut chain of confirmed parentage, with properly identified dogs (microchip etc) such 'evidence' was reduced to weak speculation at best.

Recently, several Tamaskan Dogs around the world were DNA tested for wolf content by the laboratory at UC Davis, which has developed a new DNA test for particular genetic markers that are found in American wolves. Of the Tamaskans that were DNA sampled, several tested positive for wolf content (the results thus determined that those Tamaskans are 'wolf hybrids') while others tested negative (thus, those Tamaskans are simply regular dogs without any wolf genes). Obviously this only affects particular bloodlines...

- Bobbi (Saarloos with Czech blood further back in the pedigree) X Summer (Whitefang x Paloose) = at least one offspring from this combination tested positive as a 'wolf hybrid'

- Skye (Whitefang x Paloose) X Nevada (Banjo x Tumanra) = at least one offspring from this combination tested positive as a 'wolf hybrid'

- Jackal (Oskari x Pauliine) X Jodie (Ivan x Dixy) = at least one offspring from this combination tested positive as a 'wolf hybrid'

The UC Davis DNA test costs $150 per dog - for financial reasons, we are simply not able to test all of the Foundation Dogs / bloodlines. IF I had such money to spare personally, I would gladly test ALL of my own dogs to see if any of them test positive (or not) for wolf content. However, I am of the opinion that only certain dogs from particular bloodlines will test positive for wolf genes. Whether these dogs actually are 'wolf hybrids' or simply have 'traces' of wolf genes in their DNA (yet are many generations removed and those few wolf genes are very well diluted) remains to be seen. It IS possible that the wolf genes come from Summer / Skye (out of Whitefang - IF the Valko rumors are true) however, it is also possible that the detected wolf content comes from Saarloos / Czech content several generations ago - the problem is that the laboratory is unable to distinguish whether the genes are inherited from the maternal or paternal side and, moreover, that their DNA test primarily focused on US wolves (which potentially rules out DNA markers for Czech / Saarloos as those breeds were developed from European wolves). IF Bobbi and Nevada and Jackal are all tested, and come back clear, then we could determine that the wolf content comes from Summer / Skye / Jodie. However, if all (or any) of those dogs test positive then it means that they are also 'carriers' of wolf genes.

That being said, the accuracy of this DNA test also needs to be further examined. For instance, several dog breeds (which look nothing like wolves) are known to share very close ancestry with wolves (Shar Pei, Lhasa Apso, etc) so until several individuals of these particular breeds are tested (and the results compared with those obtained from Tamaskan Dogs) we will be unable to confirm the accuracy of such a DNA test to truly determine 'wolf content'. It is, however, pertinent to expect that SOME Tamaskan bloodlines WILL test positive for wolf content with this particular DNA test (from the laboratory of UC Davis). I do know that several dogs in Finland were recently sampled for DNA testing, whether that is for parentage analysis or for the wolf content DNA test remains to be seen. Either way, if we are all aware of this information (and the possible implications) then we can use it to our advantage: knowledge is power. By making informed choices and putting this information 'on the table' it is clear that nothing is being kept hidden. Keeping it secret only makes it look like there is something to hide.

Anyway, for those who own Tamaskan Dogs in areas where wolfdogs are illegal, it would be an idea (if you can spare the cash) to have your own dogs tested just to be on the safe side (so that you can provide proof of no wolf content, if necessary). Furthermore, it would be a good idea if breeders could test their breeding dogs (if it is economically feasible) to find out if their breeding stock carries the wolf genes as that SHOULD influence which puppies will go to which owners (from particular bloodlines) depending on where the owner lives. The way I see it, some bloodlines will test positive for traces of wolf genes but that doesn't necessarily mean they are true 'wolf hybrids' - probably low content wolfdogs at the most. However, as far as authorities are concerned (since the test is unable to differentiate between F1-F5) it could cause some problems for owners - as long as all this information is known before a potential puppy purchaser puts down a deposit, it will allow them to make an informed decision about which bloodline they should select. Certain Tamaskan bloodlines are known to be 'wolf free' according to this DNA test (though, in reality, they could be from the same bloodlines just further generations removed, which means that the wolf genes were diluted out). The main thing is responsibly placing puppies in the right homes - even though nurture and upbringing can make a world of difference on a dog's behavior and doesn't truly indicate any potential wolf content (one Tamaskan bloodline could act much like any other, regardless of a few genetic markers here or there) the fact remains that SOME bloodlines COULD test positive with this particular DNA test.

INFO PROVIDED BY THE UC DAVIS LAB:
Our Wolf Hybridization report has 4 separate portions and result analysis. Below is a brief summary of the tests and analysis.

Mitochondrial DNA that will indicate if the mitochondrial DNA contribution is from dog or wolf. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited through the maternal line. Therefore we can detect female wolves in the linage of the subject animal.

Y chromosome, is used for male subject animals and looks for wolf vs. dog marker combinations on the Y chromosome. We will only detect a wolf contribution from father to son, to grandson and so on. Female offspring from the original male wolf do not inherit a Y, therefore a daughter of the wolf and her offspring will not have the Y chromosome wolf contribution.

Presence of wolf-specific alleles (variants). The DNA markers tested have some variants that are seen only in wolves, not dogs. However absence of these variants does not indicate that the subject animal is a dog; due to the close genetic relationship between dogs and wolves many variants are in common between wolves and dogs.

The population analysis uses 38 DNA markers for the subject which are compared against populations of known wolves and dogs. The dogs in our database are Alaskan Husky, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, Inuit dogs and German Shepherd dogs. We have wolf samples collected from across North America (Alaska, Canada and assorted populations in the contiguous USA). The population analysis program determines the statistical likelihood of inclusion within the dog or wolf populations. It also calculates the probability that a parent, grandparent or great grandparent is from another population. In the case of XXXXX (name hidden to protect the individual dog) there is wolf contribution detected, but not likely within 3 generations.

We use the 4 sections (or 3 in the case of females) listed above to determine our final analysis of dog, wolf or hybrid.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Lynwae » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:13 pm

Thank you so much Debby for having eventually put it public !

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:20 pm

Good post! I think the last part is very important, we better be 'safe then sorry'. I will have my doggies tested as soon as I have the money for it and will make sure all the puppy buyers are aware of the results ;)

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:23 pm

Thank you Debby for your post. It is clear and honest in my opinion. I'm not surprised. I think that most Tamaskan have nice behaviours and are lovable and sociable dogs that are suited to live in this society, so I don't mind the wolfcontent. The thing I didn't like, was that there was no honesty. So I'm very glad with this post.
But the thing that worries me, are there a lot of people who will be having trouble because their Tamaskan could be illegal wolfdogs in the state where they live? :?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:25 pm

i have a question? what will happen to dogs that test positive in countries they are illegal? i mean, would the owner have to apply for the correct licence (UK needs a DWA permit) and build the correct enclosure? or could they carry on living out their live?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Karen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:31 pm

I would say they can just carry on living their life. When the dogs are showing normall behavior, you are safe.
I think the whole idea of being safe if nothing was revealed is a hoax anyway! If some authority asks you what that dog is, and you say a "genuine" tamaskan, not a wolfdog. What do you think will happen if you show them papers who are not acknowleged by any authority than the tamaskan? That will never stick anyway!
Nothing really changed...

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:32 pm

Thanks Debby. No great surprise there and makes sound sense.

What I read from this is that there is "potential" for wolf content in some of the lines. Even if the tests are not 100% accurate it does confirm what we suspected that there is reason for reasonable doubt.

Going back to what I have posted previously. I would like to see us start to define a list of Breeding Dogs and their "potential" to have wolf content. I would base this potential on wether we can, through documentation, prove that there is no pure CSV/SAARLOOS/WOLF within 4 Generations of that dogs pedigree. Those that cannot are tagged with the potential to produce or have produced offspring with wolf content and fall below the F5 limit imposed in most countries.

Those Breeders that then have the means and or desire to could then have those that are potentially affected to undertake the DNA test. A clear result would allow that dog to moved to the Clear list. Those that cant/dont would therefore need to disclaim the potential to any future buyers and would be a condition on their ability to be a recognised TDR Breeder. We would need to somehow ensure that the DNA swab was taken by an independent person not associated with the Breeder to ensure the DNA result was attributable to that dog (Vet maybe?)

Within Time, all Breeding dogs would fall within the 5 Gen requirement as current potential carriers are retired over time.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Dallas » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:37 pm

TerriHolt wrote:i have a question? what will happen to dogs that test positive in countries they are illegal? i mean, would the owner have to apply for the correct licence (UK needs a DWA permit) and build the correct enclosure? or could they carry on living out their live?
I was wondering about that too. :?
And thank you Debby for posting this.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:38 pm

TerriHolt wrote:i have a question? what will happen to dogs that test positive in countries they are illegal? i mean, would the owner have to apply for the correct licence (UK needs a DWA permit) and build the correct enclosure? or could they carry on living out their live?
I think the legality issue would need to come down to a discussion between the Owner and Breeder. Forewarned is indeed forearmed though , and that is what is important. My main concern is/was people potentially owning a wolfdog and not adapting their training and behaviour to the situation based on blind faith that there isnt any in the Breed.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TeresaC » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 pm

Thank you for this post.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vroni » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:05 pm

I think you had to be careful with the word "Hybrid" because they are no Hybrids!
If a false person read this it will be very difficult!

We better can say Wolfdogs instead of Hybrids can't we?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:09 pm

As it has also been speculated that Boogie was Ivan and Ivan is documented as the Sire of Whitefang (Valko), all three of the tests that proved positive have that line in common by the looks of things.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:14 pm

Vroni wrote:I think you had to be careful with the word "Hybrid" because they are no Hybrids!
If a false person read this it will be very difficult!

We better can say Wolfdogs instead of Hybrids can't we?
This is the exact wording used by the UC Davis laboratory, which is also interesting to note.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vroni » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:20 pm

Sylvaen wrote: This is the exact wording used by the UC Davis laboratory, which is also interesting to note.
Thank you for the answer Debbie.
Can you please tell me if they have another word for tested dogs? That they say "Hybrid" to the nearer dogs to the wolf and "Wolfdog" to the farer away dogs?
I am very interested what this means for me and my dog in Germany... If he is illegal or not... His parents are Summer and Jackal.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:29 pm

Vroni wrote:
Sylvaen wrote: This is the exact wording used by the UC Davis laboratory, which is also interesting to note.
Thank you for the answer Debbie.
Can you please tell me if they have another word for tested dogs? That they say "Hybrid" to the nearer dogs to the wolf and "Wolfdog" to the farer away dogs?
No problem. :)

The UC Davis lab only provides 2 options:
"Based on our findings, the above animal is a dog-wolf hybrid."
"Based on our findings, the above animal is a dog."

As far as I've seen, they don't use the word 'wolfdog' at all, which is rather odd considering it is now a much more widely accepted term (and more logical) than 'wolf hybrid' - since dogs are descended from wolves (the same species, not a 'hybrid' of two separate species). According to this particular DNA test, there is no distinction between a high content wolfdog, a mid-content, and a low content. The DNA test only reveals genetic markers - how many genetic markers are needed to make the determination remains to be seen. Is there a cut-off point? If a dog has 1 wolf marker does that make it a 'wolf hybrid' or does it require a certain number of genetic markers? Can the test distinguish between a wolfdog that is 90% wolf and a wolfdog that is 90% dog, or do they count both dogs as the same ('wolf hybrids')? Will all offspring from the same litter have the same results, or does it all depend what genes they inherit from each parent? How many generations until the wolf genes no longer appear... and can they 'pop up' again in subsequent generations, depending on the bloodline combinations? Clearly these are all questions that need to be considered.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:32 pm

Vroni wrote:I think you had to be careful with the word "Hybrid" because they are no Hybrids!
If a false person read this it will be very difficult!

We better can say Wolfdogs instead of Hybrids can't we?
Its actually a good point. Hybrids are sterile by definition, so wolfdog is the more correct terminology (even though most people use the terms interchangeably). I edited my post to be consistent.

From the DWAA (UK)
Hybridisation infers a mating between two different species resulting in sterile hybrid
offspring. The offspring from a wolf x dog cross are fertile and able to reproduce.
Since the dog and the wolf are able to interbreed successfully, the misleading term wolf
hybrid has been replaced with wolfdog for the purpose of this report.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Blustag » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:40 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Vroni wrote:
Sylvaen wrote: This is the exact wording used by the UC Davis laboratory, which is also interesting to note.
Thank you for the answer Debbie.
Can you please tell me if they have another word for tested dogs? That they say "Hybrid" to the nearer dogs to the wolf and "Wolfdog" to the farer away dogs?
No problem. :)

The UC Davis lab only provides 2 options:
"Based on our findings, the above animal is a dog-wolf hybrid."
"Based on our findings, the above animal is a dog."

As far as I've seen, they don't use the word 'wolfdog' at all, which is rather odd considering it is now a much more widely accepted term (and more logical) than 'wolf hybrid' - since dogs are descended from wolves (the same species, not a 'hybrid' of two separate species). According to this particular DNA test, there is no distinction between a high content wolfdog, a mid-content, and a low content. The DNA test only reveals genetic markers - how many genetic markers are needed to make the determination remains to be seen. Is there a cut-off point? If a dog has 1 wolf marker does that make it a 'wolf hybrid' or does it require a certain number of genetic markers? Can the test distinguish between a wolfdog that is 90% wolf and a wolfdog that is 90% dog, or do they count both dogs as the same ('wolf hybrids')? Will all offspring from the same litter have the same results, or does it all depend what genes they inherit from each parent? How many generations until the wolf genes no longer appear... and can they 'pop up' again in subsequent generations, depending on the bloodline combinations? Clearly these are all questions that need to be considered.

This is all very interesting BUT the wolf content may be several generations away lets not forget that. I had been intouch with this
company at length and have even got swab kits here but after their admission that they cannot be 100% accurate I decided not
to bother sending them in. The testing is still new and wolf markers do appear in other breeds of dog. However out of curiosity I may well send half a dozen random dogs in now and see what it reveals. I also have direct descendent sled dogs here from Alaska/Canada and Scandinavia which I may well test too.

Rahne

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:44 pm

I'm not sure about all the laws but in most cases wolfdogs are illegal to be kept and after F5 generation they are considered pure dogs. This test cannot prove how far away the 'wolf' content is, what generation or percentage. I think as long as our dogs don't cause major problems (attacking people/dogs) then the chance that the authorities can act in any way is very slim.

It think it's important that puppy purchasers are told that there is a possibility of wolf content (in some bloodlines) so that when behavioral problems do occur they can get the appropriate help.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by KRHert » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Lynn I think that sounds like a good way to test it. I do wish this test was more accurate too, however even human paternity test are only 99% accurate, so hoping for 100% accuracy may be too much.
Sylvaen wrote:As far as I've seen, they don't use the word 'wolfdog' at all, which is rather odd considering it is now a much more widely accepted term (and more logical) than 'wolf hybrid' - since dogs are descended from wolves (the same species, not a 'hybrid' of two separate species). According to this particular DNA test, there is no distinction between a high content wolfdog, a mid-content, and a low content. The DNA test only reveals genetic markers - how many genetic markers are needed to make the determination remains to be seen. Is there a cut-off point? If a dog has 1 wolf marker does that make it a 'wolf hybrid' or does it require a certain number of genetic markers? Can the test distinguish between a wolfdog that is 90% wolf and a wolfdog that is 90% dog, or do they count both dogs as the same ('wolf hybrids')? Will all offspring from the same litter have the same results, or does it all depend what genes they inherit from each parent? How many generations until the wolf genes no longer appear... and can they 'pop up' again in subsequent generations, depending on the bloodline combinations? Clearly these are all questions that need to be considered.
Has anyone asked the lab these questions yet?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vroni » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:50 pm

Of course we had to be carefully with our dogs and that nobody "hate" them because of their behaviour but what is about the people which wish bad to the people who owns them? What happened when they confiscate my Jack to try to proof what he is? I will die without him and when I do not know where he is and how he is doing and if I will ever get him back! At the moment there is no test to say what percentage he has and what generation but what when they will have such a test soon?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Blustag » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:57 pm

Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by wen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:00 pm

Gaby wrote:Thank you Debby for your post. It is clear and honest in my opinion. I'm not surprised. I think that most Tamaskan have nice behaviours and are lovable and sociable dogs that are suited to live in this society, so I don't mind the wolfcontent. The thing I didn't like, was that there was no honesty. So I'm very glad with this post.
I agree with that :D
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:01 pm

Vroni wrote:Of course we had to be carefully with our dogs and that nobody "hate" them because of their behaviour but what is about the people which wish bad to the people who owns them? What happened when they confiscate my Jack to try to proof what he is? I will die without him and when I do not know where he is and how he is doing and if I will ever get him back! At the moment there is no test to say what percentage he has and what generation but what when they will have such a test soon?
This is why I believe documentation was and is so critical, and why I have been banging on about it. With proven, verifiable, documentation, to prove that a dog can be traced back 5+ generations, all the fear on "what if" is negated. I still think we need to take stock of exactly where we are and what we can prove and what we cant in terms of clear F5+ lineage so we can at least look at the size of the challenge ahead.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 pm

Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
This is true. BUT on the other hand fully assuming your dog is just a dog while it might be showing wolfdog behaviour could also lead to problems so I don't think it will hurt for people to talk to someone who has experience with wolfdog behaviour when their Tamaskan has 'issues' which could be due to wolf content.

It's nice to hear you will be testing some of your dogs! :)

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vroni » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 pm

My Tamaskan acts a lot like other wolfdogs I know (and I know a lot wolfdogs from different breeds).
But his instincts are not as strong as the high content wolfdogs I know.
I do not have any problems with his behaviour but it helped to be in contact with wolfdog owners to know what I had to do with Jack and how to train him best.
I know that Jack is a wolfdog but I do not exactly know with what percentage and what generation. I am only afraid to loose him.

Sorry Lynn but I do not trust you anymore. I only believe in facts! And it is fact that my dog acts a lot like a wolfdog (what is not negative!).
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:05 pm

Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
Lynn, might be an idea to get someone independent to do this for you. As someone who is targeted as being behind the secrecy and denials, I am sure there will be many who will question the validity of the results from DNA swabs taken by yourself :|
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:05 pm

nivenj wrote:
Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
Lynn, might be an idea to get someone independent to do this for you. As someone who is targeted as being behind the secrecy and denials, I am sure there will be many who will question the validity of the results from DNA swabs taken by yourself :|
Yup... good point!

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Blustag » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:07 pm

Rahne wrote:
Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
This is true. BUT on the other hand fully assuming your dog is just a dog while it might be showing wolfdog behaviour could also lead to problems so I don't think it will hurt for people to talk to someone who has experience with wolfdog behaviour when their Tamaskan has 'issues' which could be due to wolf content.

It's nice to hear you will be testing some of your dogs! :)
Yes this is quite true Rahne it wont hurt at all and is to be recommended

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Blustag » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:09 pm

Rahne wrote:
nivenj wrote:
Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
Lynn, might be an idea to get someone independent to do this for you. As someone who is targeted as being behind the secrecy and denials, I am sure there will be many who will question the validity of the results from DNA swabs taken by yourself :|
Yup... good point!
I have absolutely no problem with this.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:13 pm

Blustag wrote:
Rahne wrote:
nivenj wrote:Lynn, might be an idea to get someone independent to do this for you. As someone who is targeted as being behind the secrecy and denials, I am sure there will be many who will question the validity of the results from DNA swabs taken by yourself :|
Yup... good point!
I have absolutely no problem with this.
Sorry for the huge quote block. lol. I am looking forward to seeing this. Should be very interesting. :D

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:38 pm

Blustag wrote:Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back.
Do you have any idea which dogs where carrying the wolf genes in the pedigrees of the foundation dogs? Or in which lines there is a higher possibility of wolf genes today?

It would be nice if the foundation dogs could be tested.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gabriele58 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Thank you so much for posting this Debby and thank you Lynn for agreeing to have some of your dogs tested. I hope Jodie is one of them :) .

I think that this is all most of us wanted, to be informed so we can proceed properly. I personally breathed a huge sigh of relief when I read Debby's post.

This is exactly what our beloved breed needs to survive...no secrets, responsible ownership.

The test may not be all that accurate, but it's a start and shows that we are not trying to hide anything.

Bravo for a step in the right direction! :D
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by KRHert » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:42 pm

It would be really great if the foundation dogs could be tested. It could get expensive though so maybe we could set up some sort of online fund so we could all chip in a few dollars then there'd be no reason why the tests couldn't be done.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:43 pm

In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:46 pm

Gaby wrote:Do you have any idea which dogs where carrying the wolf genes in the pedigrees of the foundation dogs? Or in which lines there is a higher possibility of wolf genes today?
There isn't much point in guessing until more dogs have been tested as only then will we be able to make relatively accurate estimates. At the very least, we'd need to know if Bobbi, Nevada and Jackal test positive or not because then we'd be in a better position to pinpoint where the wolf content is coming from... for now we can only speculate.
Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:55 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
The problem is that "The Wolfdog without the Wolf" can be misunderstood, it would be better to either remove it or revise it for a clearer meaning..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Nino wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
The problem is that "The Wolfdog without the Wolf" can be misunderstood, it would be better to either remove it or revise it for a clearer meaning..
Or possibly even a disclaimer on the motto?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:58 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
I know they don't behave like most true wolfdogs, as I stated before, I think the Tamaskan is suited to be in nowadays society. But for someone who wants a wolfdog, but can't, because they are illegal, it is a misleading slogan in my opinion. But a vote would be nice!
Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:Do you have any idea which dogs where carrying the wolf genes in the pedigrees of the foundation dogs? Or in which lines there is a higher possibility of wolf genes today?
There isn't much point in guessing until more dogs have been tested as only then will we be able to make relatively accurate estimates. At the very least, we'd need to know if Bobbi, Nevada and Jackal test positive or not because then we'd be in a better position to pinpoint where the wolf content is coming from... for now we can only speculate.
I know there isn't much point in guessing, but I thought that Lynn maybe knew which dogs carry the highest amount of wolf genes, especially if she has seen the parents and other family of those dogs.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:02 pm

I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by skyedream » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:03 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
I like the 'lamb in wolf's clothing' motto that a couple of people have thought up independently of each other.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Dallas » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:05 pm

completely agree with Nino and Gaby
Arguably, most Tamaskan Dogs don't compare to true wolfdogs in terms of behavior and temperament. In fact, many Tams are easier to own than other arctic breeds (husky / malamute). The motto, to me, only refers to a dog that looks like a wolf without the typical wolf-like behavior. While some bloodlines may exhibit 'signs' of wolfdog characteristics, there is still a world of difference. However, perhaps a poll could be started to see if the majority of the public thinks that the official motto should be changed (or not) and, pending the results, we could open up a topic with suggestions for a new motto and then vote on the best one. :)
Great idea! :)
Would be interesting to see how many people agree to a change.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:08 pm

I plan on, by the way, doing the test on my own dog, when I get the money..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:10 pm

Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:13 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
AZDehlin - I am curious, if you can afford it at one point, will you be doing the test on Zephyr?
Since he has only 25% "unknown heritage" and the rest 75% is husky (Jackal being the father) it would be interesting to see if he checks out with markers or not.. :roll:
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:16 pm

Dallas wrote:Great idea! :)
Would be interesting to see how many people agree to a change.
As requested:

Should the TDR Motto be changed?
AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
Quite a few dogs have been tested and several have come back negative. It is up to those owners to reveal the results in this thread (if they want to) so that the public can have a better idea about which bloodlines are 'clear' (or which particular combinations resulted in 'clear' offspring). Keep in mind, until we get more results the statistics won't be very accurate to paint a good overall picture. After all, a dog that tested 'clear' MIGHT have a sibling from the same litter that tests positive - at this point, until more dogs are tested, we just don't know!
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gabriele58 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:21 pm

Would it be possible to have the address of the testing lab, or website for those of us who will choose to get our dogs tested?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Nino wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
AZDehlin - I am curious, if you can afford it at one point, will you be doing the test on Zephyr?
Since he has only 25% "unknown heritage" and the rest 75% is husky (Jackal being the father) it would be interesting to see if he checks out with markers or not.. :roll:
It will be a while until I can... I plan too when I have the money as he has been by far the most difficult dog I have owned, and now all this. I wonder if the test only picks up north American wolf though if it would come back positive even IF Zephyr was 25% Czech since doesn't Czech come from european wolves?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:26 pm

So does the test come up positive for Czech and sarloos? And if they are more than f5 will it still be positive?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by KRHert » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Gabriele the Link to the website is on the first page of this topic
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:28 pm

Gabriele58 wrote:Would it be possible to have the address of the testing lab, or website for those of us who will choose to get our dogs tested?
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/Wolf-DogHybrid.php
Kylievr wrote:So does the test come up positive for Czech and sarloos? And if they are more than f5 will it still be positive?
At this point, we have no idea. More dogs need to be tested for us to be able to draw these conclusions.
This is what I was trying to explain in my original post - until we get some more answers, we can only take these current results at face-value, which might not reveal much at all as the test itself is rather ambiguous.
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