Dog aggression pup

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Rahne

Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Thu May 10, 2012 6:55 pm

Winter is showing aggression towards other dogs and I was wondering if people have experienced something like this before and how they handled it. He is now 14 weeks old.

At first when we would meet with other dogs he would raise his hackles, growl and bark at them. He seems to get a bit more 'comfortable' lately as the barking and raising the hackles has stopped for the most part but he will still growl. When he comes into direct contact with other dogs and the other dog is calm and friendly then mostly everything goes fine, he isn't enthusiastic and doesn't want to play though. It happened 3 times now that another dog tried to correct/warn Winter and he didn't accepted that but instead attacked.

He is doing better with my own dogs. He respects Konah and will accept her corrections although one time he did snap back at her. My other dog is the 'omega' and I guess he senses that as he doesn't respect her and if she corrects him he will keep 'pestering' her.

I'm used to pups surrendering themselves and acting submissive with older dogs so I'm not sure what to do with this kind of behavior. If anyone has any tips on how to deal with this it would be appreciated.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 10, 2012 7:03 pm

When his fur is standing, what type of hair pattern is it? If it's just the shoulders, then it's confidence he can take on whatever's bothering him. If it's split mohawk style where it's just the shoulder and butt end, then that's unstable fur - he doesn't know whether he wants to take it on or run away from the problem. (He's fighting between his defense flight and defense fight response). If it's full mohawk style where it's from shoulder to butt end, then that's a fear response - he's scared of the situation. In this case, if he's confident enough to take it on, then he'll try to fight it. If not, then he'll want to run away from what's scaring him.

Best way to meet dogs he's never met, in my opinion, is to go on a walk together and then just hang out with the dogs laying down next to their handlers (on leash) while the handlers chat. If they're comfortable with each other, you'll see them relax. Otherwise, no.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by TerriHolt » Thu May 10, 2012 7:16 pm

It's strange that a 14 wk old pup would be have this way if it is not fear :? do young pups even try to challenge other dogs normally? as well as in your other post... fear/dis interest of human contact?

i do however, think that arianwenarie would be handy to have as a neighbour :D

if it is true aggression then i think a pro trainer would be the way to go while he is still young... you could have huge problems when he gets bigger...
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by HiTenshi16 » Thu May 10, 2012 7:22 pm

TerriHolt wrote:i do however, think that arianwenarie would be handy to have as a neighbour :D
agreed!

With him like this, I am curious to know how his littermates temperaments are like so far.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 10, 2012 7:27 pm

Hrm...I forget exactly when the fear periods are, but I do believe they're between the age of 10-16 weeks...? o_O All dogs react to fear differently. Oftentimes, they will run away as they are not confident enough to take on the problem. However, in some cases, you will see a dog that is confident enough to take on what's scaring them -- that's fear aggression and I witnessed an evaluation of a dog with that issue today. Initial assessment noted 5, possibly, 6 forms of aggression out of the 16 types of aggression.

I do agree that this is an issue that needs to be addressed early on. Thanks for the compliment, Terri. :)

@Jo: I'm aaaaaalmost a stone's throw away! We live in the same state after all. ;)

EDIT:
I believe Sally with Tika (Blustag Golden Sunrise) has a similar issue, but with dogs...?

Rahne

Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Thu May 10, 2012 7:38 pm

Thanks so far :) When his fur is standing it is on the top part (shoulders), and sometimes also a bit on the butt end but not on his whole back. I thought at first that it was fear, for me that would explain his behavior anyways.. but I'm not so sure anymore. He seems very comfortable just walking around other dogs (with his tail high) if they ignore him or just be friendly. It's only when they would jump on him or snap at him that he suddenly becomes aggressive :?

I try to let him meet with dogs now that I know are calm and friendly to walk. He doesn't really seem to be interested in playing with other dogs besides my own dogs but maybe that will come?
HiTenshi16 wrote:With him like this, I am curious to know how his littermates temperaments are like so far.
I have spoken with several of them but they might better explain theirselves if they wish.
arianwenarie wrote:EDIT:
I believe Sally with Tika (Blustag Golden Sunrise) has a similar issue, but with dogs...?
You mean Nixi I think. The issues she described on the forum were with people/children.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 10, 2012 7:42 pm

Oh, shoot. I'd want to bite someone if they suddenly jumped on me. lol!

And there's an influx of puppies lately so I can hardly remember the names of them all. :oops:

Rahne

Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Thu May 10, 2012 7:49 pm

arianwenarie wrote:Oh, shoot. I'd want to bite someone if they suddenly jumped on me. lol!
That dog was just being playful but I can imagine it made him scared. All my other pups that I have owned would throw themselves on the ground, shelter between my legs or cry out when something like that happened so he when he just flung at that dog and attacked him it did surprise me.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by KRHert » Thu May 10, 2012 8:34 pm

I own Tika, Winter's sister. As far as temperament she is fine with me and my husband and does just fine with other people at her puppy class (even children). She sometimes plays roughly with my Lab, but I think he'll end up being the Omega of the two dogs so he's not very helpful in correcting her. He's a big boy though so I don't worry about him much. At puppy class she has been getting better with the other puppies. At first she was playing a bit rough with some of them but this past week she was pretty good. She is submissive with the trainer's adult dogs which is good.
A couple of days ago though we passed a Jack Russel on a walk and all her hair was on end (even her tail) and she was growling at him pretty aggressively. I've noticed she "puffs up" more while we're on walks lately, usually it'll be her shoulders, her butt and her tail.
We are going to take them to the park for a dog carnival event this weekend so we'll see how she does. She'll be on a leash the whole time so we'll have control. I'm hoping she'll just relax after she gets used to all the dogs there.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gabriele58 » Thu May 10, 2012 8:46 pm

Loki, who comes from this litter as well has similar issues. We went for a walk down by the lake with him last night and every time we met another dog, no matter what size, his fur would stand right from his shoulders to his tail and he would growl and bark. He lunged at a couple of the dogs. The other dogs were totally calm and not at all aggressive.

He gets along fairly well with my Shih Tzu cross, although he gets way too rough with her sometimes and I have to split them up. Between his shyness around strangers, especially males, and even males who are regular visitors to our house (even my son who comes over every few days) and his aggression with other dogs, he has been quite the challenge. Any advice would be very much appreciated as I have never met a puppy like him before.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Booma » Thu May 10, 2012 8:47 pm

Just remember not to pat them and do the "awww it's ok don't be scared" (hard I know) as this just reinforces the behaviour.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Thu May 10, 2012 8:54 pm

Kylievr wrote:Just remember not to pat them and do the "awww it's ok don't be scared" (hard I know) as this just reinforces the behaviour.
Thanks but I personally think the whole 'reinforcing fear' thing is a bit overrated..

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Nino » Thu May 10, 2012 9:21 pm

Fear Imprint period is between 8 and 10/11 weeks as far as I know (when it ends in those two weeks depends on the individual and breed I think).

I have had the raised hairs in the neck and on the butt all the way through my time with Sølve, she's become much better as she has gotten older, but in her case I have no doubt that it's a sign of uncertainness on how she should react in a given situation.
When she was small something like a big dark root of a tree that had been cut or a big black garbage can would make her act that way - it seemed that it was specially if something was "out of place" or didn't fit in with the scenery, and relaxing and going towards the thing so she got a chance to see what it was mostly helped her relax, there have never been dominance in her in the context of other dogs, she have always loved them and thrown herself down on the back even when in run, which have given some funny experiences.
If something at places where things normally is a certain way changes she will still raise her hair in uncertainty, but they come down fast.

Sølve had the same problem with strangers, specially with males, it have taken lots of socialization to get her to accept them to be near her - but now she lets most strangers be in "her space" as long as they ignore her - she definitely prefer distance.
She will though often bark at strangers if they come into the house (which I find is a fair reaction) but won't raise her hair because of them, I still need to teach her to stop barking again lol..

Children never was a problem, she loved them from day one, boys girls - no problem.. small children no problem..

She takes a play stance with horses and other animals, and barks.. definitely wants to play with them, and get them to run, this way she is with cats too.. but if you hold the cat she will just sniff it.

As Sølve has gotten older she have gotten more confident and relaxes - she is specially relaxed when around other dogs that are relaxed as she feels safe - and I'm pretty sure that she is a dog that doesn't want to be "alfa" or wants to be the one keeping her "pack" safe but she will do so because there is no other dog to do it, and as soon as another dog takes over she starts relaxing.

I haven't really had any experience with a dominant or "aggressive" pup so all I can do is to share my own experiences.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by susann » Thu May 10, 2012 11:31 pm

Nova's fur stands right from her shoulders to her tail too :) and she growl toward other dogs.. (I have never heard her bark.. I don't think she knows how) :) .. standing on two feet ... waving in the air with her front legs.. she has always done this at a distance.. if the dog comes near she is always playful and happy. No problem letting her in the dogyard with other dogs.. but she plays bit rough with small dogs. She is a "talking dog" so I can't always tell the different between growl and talk... :shock: and she always wave her tail... and she is also submissive when it comes to older dogs or dogs who growl.

Maccon don't say much at all.. he has always been a calm and relaxt boy.. and very submissive to older dogs or dogs who growl.

I hope you'll get to terms with Winter and his aggression or fear!

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 10, 2012 11:32 pm

Some dogs will not tolerate other dogs jumping on them. When a dog jumps on another dog during play, it's dominance play. Winter might just be one of those dogs who are naturally confident and will not tolerate any moves he sees as a challenge and/or a form of dominance.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Blustag » Fri May 11, 2012 12:59 am

Rahne wrote:Do any people here have experience with hand-shy pups/dogs?

Winter is 14 weeks old now and I have him for 3 weeks. When I first got him he would back/run away from me whenever I would try to touch or grab him. Finally he is showing improvement with me touching him but he still behaves in the same way with any other people (including my boyfriend). He doesn't seem to be afraid of people, as long as they ignore him he seems comfortable and not really interested in them. Sometimes he will go up and sniff people and he also takes treats, he just doesn't want to be touched.

Right now I will ask people not to pet him but instead offer him a treat. I'm afraid that if I push him into contact he might start snapping at them. But some people say I do have to force him into contact and let many people touch him so he will start to like it.

Any one can give me some tips/advice/experiences??
I did mail you and give you advice.

Also Winter was very social here with me and loved his cuddles. He was also very playful which you can see from pics I posted on
the forum. I find this so very sad and wished I had kept him here now. ALL puppies are very well socialised having been born in the lounge where I sleep with the expectant mother and then they are transferred into the kitchen (which is the main room for everyone to congregate) when they are 3 weeks old. Once they are running around they are allowed freedom and are also taken outside and meet all the adults. I cant explain why puppies are shy when they get to their new homes except that perhaps it is something to do with the flights as they spend a long time pre flight and after landing, in a box. They then have an onward journey in a car to their final destination. Having said that many puppies I have flown have bounced right out of the boxes and into the arms of their new owners One in particular I was very worried about was a pup I sent out to New Zealand and that was a long flight but pup was so happy when it arrived and just bounced right out of its box into new owner's arms thankfully.

As for the aggression he never once showed any signs whilst here with all of us. I would definately get professional help before
it escalates and becomes a real problem as he grows. I did mention this to you in my email to you.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by blufawn » Fri May 11, 2012 11:54 am

Its difficult to say where fear aggression comes from. When he lived here he was the favourite as we thought we would keep him, so he got all the cuddles and he did socialise with Kyte as all puppies do.
I do agree that people should be asked always to stroke the dog, but if you are nervous of him biting someone then this will pass down to the dog and he may very well do what you feared he would whereas in the hands of another he wouldnt.
Do you walk him with your other dogs or alone?
Try asking a friend or relative to walk him (without telling them about his behaviour) and see if this makes a difference.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gabriele58 » Fri May 11, 2012 2:51 pm

I've a become a daily watcher of The Dog Whisperer and yesterday's show just happened to be on aggressive dogs. We went for our usual walk last evening and Loki got his hackles up when another dog was still quite in the distance, first his shoulders and then his entire back and tail. When the dog got close, we explained that he can get aggressive and to give us a little time to work with him. We then made him sit, as Cesar Milan instructed on that show. As soon as he was sitting, the fur went down and at one point he even let himself lie down while we talked with the other dog's owner. Although we had to do this a few times, eventually we were able to let the two dogs sniff each other without any aggression from Loki. This was HUGE for us. Hopefully this tactic will continue to work.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by PawPrint » Fri May 11, 2012 3:02 pm

Thats great news!

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Fri May 11, 2012 3:07 pm

Gabriele58 wrote:I've a become a daily watcher of The Dog Whisperer and yesterday's show just happened to be on aggressive dogs. We went for our usual walk last evening and Loki got his hackles up when another dog was still quite in the distance, first his shoulders and then his entire back and tail. When the dog got close, we explained that he can get aggressive and to give us a little time to work with him. We then made him sit, as Cesar Milan instructed on that show. As soon as he was sitting, the fur went down and at one point he even let himself lie down while we talked with the other dog's owner. Although we had to do this a few times, eventually we were able to let the two dogs sniff each other without any aggression from Loki. This was HUGE for us. Hopefully this tactic will continue to work.
Be careful if he lays down, but is still fixated at the other person/dog. When that happens and a dog lays down, we usually give them more slack. When they get more slack, they have more leash to launch at what they're fixated on. ;)

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Tue May 15, 2012 4:38 am

arianwenarie wrote:When his fur is standing, what type of hair pattern is it? If it's just the shoulders, then it's confidence he can take on whatever's bothering him. If it's split mohawk style where it's just the shoulder and butt end, then that's unstable fur - he doesn't know whether he wants to take it on or run away from the problem. (He's fighting between his defense flight and defense fight response). If it's full mohawk style where it's from shoulder to butt end, then that's a fear response - he's scared of the situation. In this case, if he's confident enough to take it on, then he'll try to fight it. If not, then he'll want to run away from what's scaring him.

Best way to meet dogs he's never met, in my opinion, is to go on a walk together and then just hang out with the dogs laying down next to their handlers (on leash) while the handlers chat. If they're comfortable with each other, you'll see them relax. Otherwise, no.

As you all know, one of Winter's sisters is in rescue. She has shown, I don't want to call it aggression, but rather a fear based response to dogs that she has not been formally introduced to.... arianwenarie, I completely agree with your doggie intro scinerio! She was intro'd in basically that way to all three dogs here and is doing fine, but unknown dogs? Not so much...
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Tue May 15, 2012 5:15 am

Rahne wrote:Thanks so far :) When his fur is standing it is on the top part (shoulders), and sometimes also a bit on the butt end but not on his whole back. I thought at first that it was fear, for me that would explain his behavior anyways.. but I'm not so sure anymore. He seems very comfortable just walking around other dogs (with his tail high) if they ignore him or just be friendly. It's only when they would jump on him or snap at him that he suddenly becomes aggressive :?

I try to let him meet with dogs now that I know are calm and friendly to walk. He doesn't really seem to be interested in playing with other dogs besides my own dogs but maybe that will come?
HiTenshi16 wrote:With him like this, I am curious to know how his littermates temperaments are like so far.
I have spoken with several of them but they might better explain theirselves if they wish.
arianwenarie wrote:EDIT:
I believe Sally with Tika (Blustag Golden Sunrise) has a similar issue, but with dogs...?
You mean Nixi I think. The issues she described on the forum were with people/children.
With little Nixi, what was described to me appeared that the puppy was playing/treating the children like litter mates, not like human kids. Very rough play and beginning to correct the children if they happened to do something she didn't like/want.... as litter mates will do to eachother... but not appropriate with kiddos :( I don't think Nixi is ruined on children, but she has had confusing experiences with them in her critical growth period.

OH, I also keep reading this "man" aversion here within the litter. Nixi is like that, except with very soft spoken men (my hubbie, the vet) then she is fine. She is coming around with my older adult son, who is armed with lots of treats, and still has a ways to go with the 16 y/o boy. I think she will bond firmly with the man of the household (IF that man is patient, able to work with her and not take it personally for a few days) but will not be able to generalize that all men are OK... one man at a time with lots of positive reenforcement...
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 15, 2012 9:08 am

michifloo wrote:With little Nixi, what was described to me appeared that the puppy was playing/treating the children like litter mates, not like human kids. Very rough play and beginning to correct the children if they happened to do something she didn't like/want....
Sam went thru this for a period of time... i had to take professional advice into account before anyone got hurt but he came out ok... Granted i wasn't battling with fear as well which made it considerably easier... I'm sure you and her future owners will make a model dog out of her with time...

Silly question incoming :oops: but is it the pairing of the mating with this litter, wrong combo of parents? Or are they ALL fearful just thru chance? I mean, would the pups be ok for breeding or could they produce pups that are the same fearful temperament? Just seem's weird that they are all having the same issue...
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Tue May 15, 2012 12:49 pm

If it were just one pup out of the litter, I'd say it was just chance, but for most of the pups to have similar temperaments (esp having grown up in some vastly different homes) I would say that, at the very least that mating should be avoided in the future. Yeah, one does have to take into account temperament in the dam and sire. If any of these pup went to breeding homes, very careful consideration needs to be made to pair with a dog with a more desireable temperament, but even then, it can be kind of a crap shoot.... Personally, I would say that none of these little ones ought to be bred :(
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 15, 2012 1:03 pm

It's a shame the parents were mis-matched... They are beautiful pups. They look clean, tidy... idk, pretty... People chose the tamaskan for overall health and temperament, it would be a shame for that to change by using this litter if it could go wrong. They seem to have the temperament of that of a Saarloos at this stage (altho, could be wrong).
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 pm

I agree with Denise.

It's most likely the crossing back on the lines of Jodie/Whitefang... I think they also not have had enough socialization with strange people and dogs (outside of Lynn her pack/family) since she says all the pups were fine with her but now all of them have problems being in their new environments. At least one of them that was picked up by the owner hadn't been outside of the house before and I doubt any of them were taken outside of Lynn her property (park, streets etc.).

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Tue May 15, 2012 1:33 pm

Thats an interesting point, Rahne. I come from the school of thought that pups should be handled and "socialized" appropriately from day one, with introducing to different and unique stimuli even while their eyes are still closed. Hawthorne Tamaskan took painstaking efforts to do this prior to the pups going to their forever homes ;) I'll ask them to chime in here and elaborate. As far as I know, all of the pups are well rounded...I think the only problem pup seems to just want to eat everything in sight ;)

yeah, the Sarloos is suppose to kinda stand offish and aloof....this is the thing, though, I have found that Nixi is very, very treat motivated, will do anything for treats and get distracted from fear objects with them ;)
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Hawthorne » Tue May 15, 2012 2:35 pm

Kylievr wrote:Just remember not to pat them and do the "awww it's ok don't be scared" (hard I know) as this just reinforces the behaviour.
Where is the "like" button for this? Thank you! I agree. Don't reassure your dog when they are scared. Fenris (our lab mix) was a fearful puppy. A different situation, but still fearful: he wouldn't even walk down the street on a leash. Just sat there and cried. It was a long and painstaking road, but we just worked very hard with him and he's come around (mostly).

On another note: yes, thanks Michif. We did the "Super Dog" program with our pups (or "Early Neurological Stimulation). This may sound a bit wacky--but it's well known in the seeing-eye dog training world / assistance dog training world. This was originally a military program for raising dogs and has loads of trials that prove that this system works. The methods are described on the following website:

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/ ... ion_en.pdf

This MUST be done between day 3 and day 16 of age. It is supposed to help with the handleability of the dogs as they mature into adults. We did this for the entire litter (and we have photos :lol: ) I know that Tarheel did this program on the OBX litter as well. It's fun! I'm sure to use it again and hope to find more things like this to do with future litters.

I am sad for the issues that are being described here. None of our Tams have had issues like this as pups. Freyja has grown to be leash reactive with other dogs but that's because we were attacked several times while on walks. We're now walking all dogs separately to help counter-condiditon them for leash reactivity as well as pulling. :roll: They seem to pull a lot less if walking alone as opposed to walking with another dog or several dogs.

Anyhow--Raven seems to be a little less confident as a pup than Freyja was as a pup. Freyja was a very confident puppy. But Raven is being properly socialized and is going to doggie school. She has not had a negative experience yet, and I hope it stays that way. I think this will be the key: providing as many positive experiences for these pups as possible.

Our dogs do play rough. They all mouth each others throats and bite at each others hind legs and get on each other's backs. It's all play, though. Darwin may get a little too excited sometimes and as a result gets a little too rough with Raven, so we call him off. But honestly, all I see is healthy play.

I'll just throw this out there: how much of this is inexperienced dog owners? Or inexperience with this type of breed? Or homes that don't have other dogs? Just points of discussion, not criticisms.

And just one other neat thing:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-decoded.html
This program called "Dogs Decoded" explains the differences between domestic dogs and wolf pups--how they react differently to people. Dogs consistently look to human faces to "read" them. Wolf pups don't do this. Well, the program is much more elaborate than that... it's a beautiful show.
Oh, look! The whole show is on YouTube:

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http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
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run like the road never ends

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Tue May 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Thanks Tracy and Denise for your comments :)
Hawthorne wrote:I'll just throw this out there: how much of this is inexperienced dog owners? Or inexperience with this type of breed? Or homes that don't have other dogs? Just points of discussion, not criticisms.
Can't comment for the others but I own Konah, an almost 3 year old Tamaskan bitch. She was a handful as a pup but now she is amazing! Everyone who has met her is very impressed by her temperament and behavior. I also currently own a Staffordshire Bullterrier bitch of 6 years old, lovely dog but CAN be dog aggressive so I always have to be careful with her and other dogs.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gaby » Tue May 15, 2012 3:24 pm

Lynn, how do you describe Bodie's character?
ALL puppies are very well socialised having been born in the lounge where I sleep with the expectant mother and then they are transferred into the kitchen (which is the main room for everyone to congregate) when they are 3 weeks old. Once they are running around they are allowed freedom and are also taken outside and meet all the adults.
But you had many litters in the same period,did you all have them in the kitchen at the same time? I think Rahne has a point, I come from the school of thougt like Michifloo describes, that pups should be handled and "socialized" appropriately from day one, with introducing to different and unique stimuli even while their eyes are still closed. And this is even more important for breeds like this.

My Tamaskan is loveable and trainable, doesn't pull on the leash, can stay home alone, listens when called, but doesn't go well with children and other animals because of her hunting instinct. It's is sad that more people are having problems with their Tamaskan and I still think that breeders have to improve characters first instead of looks, by outcrossing with other breeds than Tamaskan lookalikes.

I don't think it has to do a lot with owners who don't have much experience. And if you read the information on the internet, a Tamaskan should be good for someone who hasn't have experience with dogs, because they should be the perfect familiy pet. I do not agree on that. I consider myself as somebody who has experience, but I still have problems with my Tamaskan. And I'm very pleased to see Rahne with Konah, she listens very well. I don't think she can't do anything about the problems she now describes. I think it is in Winters nature to react like this. So I think it has to do with nature, and not only with nurture. I even think the power of the nature of a dog is highly underestimated. I also did that with my other dog and I can see it a lot around me at the dog school. People who think they can have a hunting dog that won't hunt, or a fighting dog that won't fight and will be very dissapointed if the dogs still does that and they can't teach him not to.

I don't have tips regarding to the dog aggression. I think you need to contact a behaviour specialist as soon as possible. To give advice you need to see everything that is happening, it is very difficult to say something usefull from a screen. Dog behaviour is a very difficult thing and things can be missed out easily. But Mila is a very strong character and when she did something like that, I would break up the fight, hold her for a few seconds so she and the other dog can cool down. Than focus the attention of the dog to something else and let them play together again. They can learn a few things, like making up after a fight and focus on something else. They learn that fighting is not something the boss wants but she wants me to play with this stick and ignore the other dog, for example. Try to act if it's totally normal and that nothing has happenend. Walk with people who know how to react in this situation. Leave a situation before things get tensed or you don't trust the other owner or other dog. For example a owner who only wants to chat but never pays attention to their dog. Or a dog that is in Winters face all the time, so Winter has a feeling that he should react.

About passing other dogs on the leash, if they lunge they are usually scared. Try to tell a dog wat you want in stead of what you don't want. If you don't want them to lunge, teach them something they can't combine with lunging. Walking next to the owner and sniffing at the delicious treat the owner has, for example. First you do it very easy, with the treat next to his nose. A lunging pup thinks that other dogs are scary. But the pup has to think this: "Hey I see an other dog, that means that I'm getting a treat from the boss!! :D " And if you practice that for a while, he will soon start with looking at you if he sees an other dog. When he is older and feeling more comfortable around other dogs, than the treats are not longer required and you can start giving him a treat sometimes. If your dog doesn't react to treats, but does react to playing with a ball for example, then use a ball as a treat. You have to use something the dog likes to work for.

This works the same for dogs that are shy of people. Get them to focus on the owner with treats, and once he feels comfortable around other people you can try to take less control. Ask people not to look in the eyes of the dog and give them treats. Tell them to make themselves small and not to pet your dog, because he is in training. Take them to a lot of different situations with people and dogs. Go to a dogschool with the dog. And if your are scared that you do things wrong, pleas ask for professional advice from a good trainer. Anybody can call him- or herself a trainer, but not everyone is good. With artic breeds like the Tamaskan, it is much better to train in a positive way and motivate your dog to work with you out of trust and because the dog is having fun in training with you, than training them the hard way. Much better results are booked with a positive training style, so please if you search someone to help you, search carefully. ;)

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gaby » Tue May 15, 2012 3:27 pm

Rahne wrote:Thanks Tracy and Denise for your comments :)
Hawthorne wrote:I'll just throw this out there: how much of this is inexperienced dog owners? Or inexperience with this type of breed? Or homes that don't have other dogs? Just points of discussion, not criticisms.
Can't comment for the others but I own Konah, an almost 3 year old Tamaskan bitch. She was a handful as a pup but now she is amazing! Everyone who has met her is very impressed by her temperament and behavior. I also currently own a Staffordshire Bullterrier bitch of 6 years old, lovely dog but CAN be dog aggressive so I always have to be careful with her and other dogs.
I agree with Rahne on this, I'm impressed about Konahs behaviour. She trained her dogs well. And it is not strange with a breed that has been bred for dogfighting until recently could become dog aggressive. I see it all the time with well trained dogs from good and responsable owners, unfortunately.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gaby » Tue May 15, 2012 3:29 pm

Sorry for the super long text, by the way. But it could be helpful for owners with problems. :oops:

Thanks Hawthorne for the docu, will watch it (again :mrgreen: )!

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Tue May 15, 2012 4:44 pm

Gaby! Absolutely excellent advice! Nixi does, at this point, look towards me or Mike for guidance in a new or novel situation. Nixi knows I carry treats in my pocket and has started to nose at it when I sense she is hesitant, this behavior just kinda started today at our visit to the feed store... every time we go, she seems more comfortable and confident. Funny, she remembers the people we met there on prior trips, and can differentiate them from strangers, but her shynes to new people is subsiding... I have no doubt that she will become a well adjusted dog someday ;) I was talking to one of the workers there with Nixi sitting and waiting for treats from her, describing the challenges this girl will have, and the woman just laughed at me, she couldn't see it (as Nixi was gently taking treats...oh, she has a nice soft mouth!)
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Tue May 15, 2012 5:12 pm

Gaby wrote:Sorry for the super long text, by the way. But it could be helpful for owners with problems. :oops:
Thanks Gaby! :D

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 15, 2012 7:03 pm

Gaby wrote:Sorry for the super long text, by the way. But it could be helpful for owners with problems. :oops:
Thanks Gaby, you're a star!
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Hawthorne » Tue May 15, 2012 7:28 pm

Don't think that I meant that all of the Golden litter owners were inexperienced. That's not what I meant. I was asking a general question if folks think if an inexperienced handler could take on a Tam pup.

I do disagree about experience, though. I don't really think the Tamaskan is for a person who has never raised or owned a dog before.
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bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
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stay with the ones who love you
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Rahne » Tue May 15, 2012 7:39 pm

Hawthorne wrote: I do disagree about experience, though. I don't really think the Tamaskan is for a person who has never raised or owned a dog before.
I don't think anyone said that, most people would agree that the Tamaskan isn't a breed for everyone. I do think though that it depends a lot on the bloodlines/combination, individual pup AND of course the person wanting a Tamaskan. What was said is that the breed is being advertised in a way that would make it seem like this breed is suitable for everyone, also first time dog owners. Maybe the breed is being portrayed in a too 'positive' way, which could lead to people underestimating what they are getting..

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by nivenj » Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 pm

Rahne wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: I do disagree about experience, though. I don't really think the Tamaskan is for a person who has never raised or owned a dog before.
I don't think anyone said that, most people would agree that the Tamaskan isn't a breed for everyone. I do think though that it depends a lot on the bloodlines/combination, individual pup AND of course the person wanting a Tamaskan. What was said is that the breed is being advertised in a way that would make it seem like this breed is suitable for everyone, also first time dog owners. Maybe the breed is being portrayed in a too 'positive' way, which could lead to people underestimating what they are getting..
I think the Vetting process probably goes someway towards ensuring owners are right for the Breed irrespective of how its portrayed elsewhere. It wouldnt be right to vet people though based on extreme behaviour so not sure vetting is the answer/issue here. That aside though, I'm sure even seasoned, experienced owners would rather not have to deal with a difficult dog :-S

Its really strange that it seems to have affected so many, surely that excludes environmental/owner issues?
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by KRHert » Tue May 15, 2012 9:31 pm

I own Tika and while she has her moments I have not had as many issues as Rahne and Sally with their pups. I grew up with Samoyeds so I'm familiar with the northern breeds. We do enjoy having Tika, but I'm not sure that someone who's never owned a dog before would be as comfortable with the breed. A lot depends on the individual person and their personality too.
I do think that the way the breed is advertised may need to be adjusted though. I feel like the way the breed is described is the breed ideal but it may not reflect the current reality of the breed as a whole. It is difficult though to stereotype the Tamaskans at this point because it seems like the personalities are still quite varied.
We love our pup and we have been trying to get her more and more exposure to people and dogs and she has been doing quite well lately, although sometimes still a bit shy. I just wish we had been a little bit more prepared. We did meet the Tarheel dogs last summer though and they were all wonderful dogs, so like I said it's hard at this point since the breed still has some variations.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Blustag » Wed May 16, 2012 1:30 am

Rahne wrote:I agree with Denise.

I think they also not have had enough socialization with strange people and dogs (outside of Lynn her pack/family) since she says all the pups were fine with her but now all of them have problems being in their new environments. At least one of them that was picked up by the owner hadn't been outside of the house before and I doubt any of them were taken outside of Lynn her property (park, streets etc.).

Just come in on this and to put this right... ALL puppies have access to outside puppy play areas there is NO way that they
are kept indoors for 8 weeks. :roll: Your comment about at least one of them picked up by the owner etc is rubbish. All puppies
are well socialised here at home with the family. They also meet friends who come to visit. Obviously they dont go for walks/parks
as you mentioned as they
are not fully vaccinated at 8 weeks and you cant say that ALL the puppies from this litter are the same as that is just NOT true.

Also parents are Heidi and BOdie. Heidi has a FANTASTIC temperament and is used with Yogi for all promotion, tv, film etc
work because of her outgoing nature. Anyone who has met her will tell you that. She greets everyone like a long lost friend.
Bodie is also a lovely boy with a very gentle nature.

You say it is probably crossing back on Jodie/Whitefang??? Do you know Whitefang? Have you met him? do you know what his
temperament is like? Jodie is a very sweet girl and won Best In Show at the Tam Show a couple of years back. So how can you
make such a comment as It's most likely the crossing back on the lines of Jodie/Whitefang... is beyond me.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Vroni » Wed May 16, 2012 7:41 am

Gaby you are very right and the way to train a Tamaskan with fun is what I learned with the training at dog school. I tried a lot of things, also to be as hard as the German Shephard people... Now we have our own funny way to train and this is good!

There are a lot of breeders which go outside with their puppies before they are 8 weeks old and I think this is very important for them! This is all I want and can say to this theme because I have my dog from Kirsten and Karsten and not from Lynn.

And I think that the Tamaskan really is not a dog for everyone... As a first dog or not is a thing of the human. Are you willing to learn from your dog? Are you able to watch your dog and take conclusions of his/her behaviour to react in another way next time? Is it OK for you if the dog is not perfect and are you able to change your life in a way that the dogs life is a happy life (for example that they do not have to be alone without a second dog for hours every day)? The dog had to be your one and only and you had to be flexible and willing to learn new things, new ways. You had to try to understand the needs of this special dogs!
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Jen » Wed May 16, 2012 10:40 am

Rahne wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: I do disagree about experience, though. I don't really think the Tamaskan is for a person who has never raised or owned a dog before.
I don't think anyone said that, most people would agree that the Tamaskan isn't a breed for everyone. I do think though that it depends a lot on the bloodlines/combination, individual pup AND of course the person wanting a Tamaskan. What was said is that the breed is being advertised in a way that would make it seem like this breed is suitable for everyone, also first time dog owners. Maybe the breed is being portrayed in a too 'positive' way, which could lead to people underestimating what they are getting..
I very much agree with this comment. When I has Sasha I had owned and shown golden retrievers and springer spaniels for 11 years and been in regular contact with many dogs for most of my life so considered myself an experienced dog owner however nothing but nothing could have prepared me for the creature that was Sasha pup :lol:

When i did my research on the breed they were always described as easy going, trainable etc however i dont believe this is always true. Like everything in life ,everything is relative. Yes compared to some of the arctic breeds or wolfdogs Tamaskans are generally much easier to live with , train etc but compared to the ordinary dog that most people would be familiar with they are very different and need a lot more work and special training and people need to know that before they commit to one.

My Sashy is now a wonderful girl and i have learned to live with her strange ways and i love her lots for it , but it has been rather a rollercoaster to get here!! :roll:

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gabriele58 » Wed May 16, 2012 2:56 pm

Thank you for all the info, Tracy. If I'm ever able to breed, I will definitely do the early socializing. I think that will be my favourite part!

I own Loki from the litter in question. I've made some headway with him over the past week, but we still have a long ways to go. His fear on meeting other dogs has toned down somewhat and he listens a little better when I tell him to stop tormenting the cats and his much-smaller pack member.

I don't have any previous experience with large breeds myself, but I did have a border collie x who required a fair bit of training due to her hyperactivity. My partner has had large dogs before, two of which were rescues. I have had several dogs before, just not a large breed.

Loki is getting a little more cuddly now. At first he resisted ANY efforts to pet him and it was more than 3 weeks before he let my partner get near him. He still backs away from my two tall sons, but he actually let some strange men approach him on our walk yesterday, not letting them pet him, but at least not backing away either.

I think that in time he will come around. I'm willing to give him all the time and patience he needs.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Gabriele58 » Wed May 16, 2012 3:10 pm

Thank you Gaby, as well. You gave a lot of great advice and I think I'll try taking treats on our walk today. Loki pulls some on the leash, but if he can walk beside my other dog he walks very nicely. I haven't been able to take him out on walks alone because my other dog would never forgive me :lol: . She loves any dogs, small or large and will eagerly greet one and all. Loki seems to do everything else she does, so I'm not sure why he doesn't follow with the happy greetings.

My daughter and I have taken Loki, my little dog and my ex's dog for walks together for the past 3 days. On the first day, I had to hold Loki back initially, but he started to calm a little later. By yesterday he greeted the other dog happily, so I'm ALMOST ready to take him to the dog park....a little more one on one socialization first though.
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Wed May 16, 2012 9:36 pm

If you take him to a dog park, see if there is an area for shyer dogs... I have become not so much of a big advocate of open off-leash parks myself, not that I am concerned so much for the dogs, but some really, really know-it-all people go there... I remember when my Loo-Loo (the sparkly party-frat girl) was being "vocal" with a dog she really, really liked at the local park, the owner said "Oh! Thats an aggressive dog" WHAT A FREAKING DORK! So many people think they are "experts" on doggie language and think just because they watch Ceasar Milan (not a big fan of him either) that they can ID behavior and think they can correct it....
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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by arianwenarie » Wed May 16, 2012 11:02 pm

michifloo wrote:If you take him to a dog park, see if there is an area for shyer dogs... I have become not so much of a big advocate of open off-leash parks myself, not that I am concerned so much for the dogs, but some really, really know-it-all people go there... I remember when my Loo-Loo (the sparkly party-frat girl) was being "vocal" with a dog she really, really liked at the local park, the owner said "Oh! Thats an aggressive dog" WHAT A FREAKING DORK! So many people think they are "experts" on doggie language and think just because they watch Ceasar Milan (not a big fan of him either) that they can ID behavior and think they can correct it....
Agreed. The one time I took my dog (a lab) into a dog park just to test her recall abilities turned out not so good. Another dog corrected her and then after I put her back on leash, someone else with their dog came over and let their dog loose - was harassing my dog (mounting her and mouthing her face). The owner urged me to let my dog off leash so that she can "play". When I had refused and told him to get his dog off of mine, he had the nerve to grab my dog by her collar to unclip the leash. I gave him an earful and stormed out of there.

Now, I still visit dog parks, but I stay outside the gates where all the dogs are required by law to remain on leash. I use the dogs and people in the dog park as distractions for training - works quite well with a dog who is over the top rude with other dogs. ;) Works well with dogs who are dog reactive as well...

My advice is that if you still want to take your dog to the dog park, then go during off-peak hours if possible so that there are a minimal number of dogs there...if he does well, then slowly work him up to the point where you find he's the most comfortable. If he's not comfortable once you go into the park itself, give him a few minutes to situate himself (while on leash) and see how he does. If he doesn't settle in after about 5-10 minutes, take him outside the gates of the park and take a walk to let him walk out the nerves. Always try to end an experience that's supposed to be positive, on a positive note. :)

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Blustag » Wed May 16, 2012 11:21 pm

I take my pups to the local supermarket for socialising and stand outside. They are a magnet for people to come over and say hello to them. Another place I go is to the local school and wait for the kids to come out. It is a cert that the kids will come rushing over to
say hello. I also take them to the local dog training school so they can get used to dogs other than mine. All this helps especially when like us we live in the middle of nowhere. ;)

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by JulieSmith » Thu May 17, 2012 1:12 pm

On the trainability of Tamaskans, I think they are similar to stubborn terriers, more trainable than some other Northern breeds, but not as trainable as GSD and collies. I think they are also very quick on picking up body language and adapt their behaviour to suit, If the owner is confident meeting people the dog will be, but if they are shy or unsure then the dog will be the same. Saga is more protective of my eldest daughter who is not confident when around strangers than if in similar situations with me, my small terrier is the same. I think my small terrier was good training for a Tamaskan, although a small dog in her head she is the same size as Saga :roll: They are an intelligent independent dog, but it does mean that if they think they can take an inch will try for the mile :lol:

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by Blustag » Thu May 17, 2012 1:29 pm

There are fors and againsts here :D I have sold several pups over the years to people who have never had a dog before and they
have fitted in very well and the owners very happy...some came back for a second :lol: I do understand what people are saying about it depends on the breeding/bloodline but just for an example there was a couple of middle aged people that had never had a dog
before and they took a brother to Summer who is a complete babe. I kept in touch very regularly during the first months to make
sure everything was ok and it was super fine. I do think that this breed can go to a first time dog owner but like with people, other breeds etc there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. A lot of the problems come from the owners when they first get
their puppy. IF puppy is not handled right then problems will arise and that can be said for any breed. I dont have a problem
selling to first time dog owners so long as I can help them along and advise them where necessary.

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Re: Dog aggression pup

Post by michifloo » Sun May 20, 2012 4:13 pm

This is what I have found with the 2 older Tams I have and with little Nixi. Inherantly, they need positive based re-enforcement training... being of northern breed heritage, they need to know WHY we ask them to do something and WHATS in it for them...esp in the first 2 (or so) years. Think about it this way, you tell a dog to "sit" but many of our Tams may look at you with an expression like "why?" If an irrisitable treat is offered, then yes, they will sit and prob sit until the treat is given.... but asking these guys to sit w/o reward, esp early in training, will more than likely produce a hesitating response.... Its part of the territory!

These Tams of ours are so freaking smart! They can read you like a book! Prob better than you can read them (HA!) The thing I really, really appreciate in our Tams is that they DO have their own mind ;)

I am not familiar with terriers, but I have a feeling this would be the case with them?

Eventually, treating for desired behavior needs to be phased out, but, should be done at a much slower rate than, say, a Labrador ;)
"I like my dogs more than most people"

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