Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

All off-topic discussions; a place to discuss anything and everything!
Fenris
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:37 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Fenris » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:49 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Fenris wrote:We should all also keep in mind that Karlie Ellis' AKC husky's Davis test results came back as positive for wolf content as well.
Can you provide some evidence for this? I've never heard of a purebred husky testing positive for wolf content, though I do know of some "AKC German Shepherds" that are anything but purebred...
I'd have to ask her for a copy. Ken Collings at wolfdog rescue resources has claimed that a border collie came back positive as well.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:37 am

Fenris wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Fenris wrote:We should all also keep in mind that Karlie Ellis' AKC husky's Davis test results came back as positive for wolf content as well.
Can you provide some evidence for this? I've never heard of a purebred husky testing positive for wolf content, though I do know of some "AKC German Shepherds" that are anything but purebred...
I'd have to ask her for a copy. Ken Collings at wolfdog rescue resources has claimed that a border collie came back positive as well.
I would love to see proof of this!
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Tiantai » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:49 am

Same here, otherwise all it is would just be he-says-she-says and so on.

A Border-collie? Seriously? That doesn't sound right to me if it came back having wolf-content in it. Can you get Ken to send a copy of the wolf-content results of both the husky and collie and a PHOTO of both dogs? This has REALLY triggered my curiousity!
Image

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:44 am

Tiantai wrote:Same here, otherwise all it is would just be he-says-she-says and so on.

A Border-collie? Seriously? That doesn't sound right to me if it came back having wolf-content in it. Can you get Ken to send a copy of the wolf-content results of both the husky and collie and a PHOTO of both dogs? This has REALLY triggered my curiousity!
That is why it is best to take these tests "with a grain of salt." I still plan on doing the same UC Davis test on our Shepherd mix (and will post results).
Like everyone else has said, we would like to see proof of these statements of the dogs in question testing positive for wolf content.
Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:49 am

HiTenshi16 wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Same here, otherwise all it is would just be he-says-she-says and so on.

A Border-collie? Seriously? That doesn't sound right to me if it came back having wolf-content in it. Can you get Ken to send a copy of the wolf-content results of both the husky and collie and a PHOTO of both dogs? This has REALLY triggered my curiousity!
That is why it is best to take these tests "with a grain of salt."
Or they could just be BS claims to undermine the validity of the UC Davis test. Until I see some evidence, I will side with science over rumor.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

Fenris
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:37 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Fenris » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:49 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Same here, otherwise all it is would just be he-says-she-says and so on.

A Border-collie? Seriously? That doesn't sound right to me if it came back having wolf-content in it. Can you get Ken to send a copy of the wolf-content results of both the husky and collie and a PHOTO of both dogs? This has REALLY triggered my curiousity!
That is why it is best to take these tests "with a grain of salt." I still plan on doing the same UC Davis test on our Shepherd mix (and will post results).
Like everyone else has said, we would like to see proof of these statements of the dogs in question testing positive for wolf content.
I'll ask Ken for them today. Karlie is currently in the process of moving to Alaska from the NW, so I will not bother her until she's settled in there.

Fenris
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:37 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Fenris » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:16 pm

UC Davis currently has possession of both the AKC papers of the husky and the test results. Both were sent back by the owner to the University, so they could look further into the test results. One would have to contact the Davis program directly to confirm whether or not this is the case.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:24 pm

Fenris wrote:One would have to contact the Davis program directly to confirm whether or not this is the case.
Will do. :)
Strange the owner didn't make any digital scans of the documents (particularly the results) before sending them back to UC Davis... :?
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

Fenris
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:37 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Fenris » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:41 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Fenris wrote:One would have to contact the Davis program directly to confirm whether or not this is the case.
Will do. :)
Strange the owner didn't make any digital scans of the documents (particularly the results) before sending them back to UC Davis... :?
Wonderful - I really didn't want to have to go through the hassle. :) Let us know once you get a response!
I can't speak to exact reasons, but she usually keeps a low profile online with her dogs because of the drama that tends to be associated with the WD and northern breed community. She stopped posting pics of her dogs months ago. I don't think she's publicly stated her results ever, but had told enough people in the wolfdog community privately about her dissatisfaction with the results on her dogs that it has become common knowledge.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Wolfdog Community Suspicious of ANCD

Post by Tiantai » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:45 pm

So I was on the tumblr page and found this link. While I do not paint Ann as a puppy miller, I do find that the wolfdog folks DO have a very good point despite the fact that I do not fully agree with their accusations about Ann being a liar. Come to think of it, many ANCD dog look MORE wolfish than those Tamaskan with known wolf-contents in their lines.

http://non-wolfdogs.tumblr.com/tagged/a ... panion-dog
Anonymous asked: "Also on that post about the blue bay shepherd, Vicki has only bred mids and lows - never claimed highs."

If you openly admit they bred wolfdogs, and you can see that they’re being marketed off as domestic dogs - can’t you see that they’re deceiving people?

I’m sure they have great animals (they’re really nice-looking, for one), but it’s incredibly poor practice to lie to people so that they can sell puppies.



Anonymous asked: "Have you ever talked to Vicki spencer or Ann dresselhaul before assuming the last 20 years of their lives dedicated to molding a bred down wolfdog line with specific behavioral and physical characteristics or do you just skim and mark them bad breeder"

I hope you understand that my “bad breeder” tag is a very generic way of saying, “this breeder is not telling the entire truth/may not be legitimate in their ways”.

Of course I’ve never spoken with either of them? I don’t think they’re “bad breeders” in the sense that their animals are unhealthy or bred in poor conditions, but if you misrepresent your animals, you’re not exactly being a “good” breeder.

Their animals are clearly wolfdogs, but they are being marketed off as non-wolfdogs. Even if they’ve been selectively bred for the past 20 years, you cannot breed stuff like roaming tendencies and high prey drives out of them.

To say that a wolfdog is a domestic dog is incredibly problematic. I addressed this in a post about Blue Bay Shepherds.



Anonymous asked: "Would it even be possible for someone to create a dog that closely resembled a wolf without adding wolf? According to Buckhorn Tamaskan, breeds like Labrador, great pyrenese, border collies and others were used to create the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog(ANCD) and no wolf was involved. Unfortunately, the original ANCD breeder's website doesn't have any info on breed creation yet. Is it possible that ANCDs are wolfdogs, but just aren't labeled as such for legal or retail reasons?"

Short answer: Yes, it’s possible to some extent, but it would take a lot of selective breeding and many, many years, if not decades. Even then, your finished product wouldn’t necessarily look “just like” a wolf.

Long answer: No, not in the given circumstances. Firstly, you would have to know what you were doing. You can’t just pair up any Malamute and any German Shepherd and expect them to make wolfy-looking pups. You would have to spend a LOT of time hunting down the perfect animals with the traits you want to use, and then spend years and years isolating those traits.

According to the Buckhorn Tamaskan website, the ANCD consists of: German Shepherd, Border Collie, Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky, Black Lab, Great Pyrenees and Greyhound.

That is a LOT of dogs, first of all. The cost to purchase and to maintain those animals would be incredible, and then you would have to raise and breed them… and then breed their puppies…

I won’t go into detail for every single dog, otherwise this post would never end, but I do want to point out some things…

Let’s say I want to mix Greyhound into my theoretical ANCD breed. Let’s break the Greyhound’s traits down:

Pros: Long, thin legs, elongated, slim muzzle, relatively large size

Cons: floppy ears, thin, curved tail, looks nothing like a wolf, non-wolfy coat colorations like piebald and brindle, small head, unbalanced large chest/small stomach area, VERY short coat, slight slant in some dogs

The chances of me getting all the “pro” traits without getting any of the “con” traits in the first litter are basically non-existent. In order to get all the traits I want and “breed out” all the traits I don’t want, I would have to selectively breed for years and years. While the Greyhound has some great traits to add to the breed, it also has a TON of not-so-good traits that would take away from it. Now, consider that every single dog breed listed has the same problems.

It wouldn’t be impossible to breed your own wolfy-looking dog, but it would take a LOT of time and a LOT of money (and this isn’t even taking temperament or health into account).

And yes, the ANCD is a wolfdog labelled as a domestic dog. It’s not a domestic dog.

Anonymous asked: "What's your opinion about the Alaskan Noble Companion Dog?"

I think they’re absolutely beautiful!

However, despite what their breeder says, they ARE wolfdogs. (Kind of reminds you of Blue Bay Shepherds, huh?)
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Wolfdog Community Suspicious of ANCD having wolf

Post by Tiantai » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:49 pm

Just to Add, they also have a blog about Blue Bay Shepherds:

http://non-wolfdogs.tumblr.com/tagged/b ... -shepherds
Image

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:07 pm

So, someone can breed wolfdog's, and then spend 20 years or more selecting dogs with the most desirable temperament traits, and they wouldn't consider them domestic animals? That I'm afraid, is total crap.
There are csv that aren't at F20 and they're an FCI recognized breed.
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:40 am

Taz wrote:So, someone can breed wolfdog's, and then spend 20 years or more selecting dogs with the most desirable temperament traits, and they wouldn't consider them domestic animals? That I'm afraid, is total crap.
There are csv that aren't at F20 and they're an FCI recognized breed.
This! ^^ :)
Image

User avatar
Valravn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Valravn » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:54 am

I unfollowed this person almost immediately after I followed them. While I appreciate their attempts to educate the general public about wolfdogs, I don't much like how they act like they know beyond a shadow of a doubt what an animal is. Just because it's not a wolfdog doesn't automatically make it a husky/gsd. Most of these dogs are too mixed to be a couple of breeds. IMO they are misrepresenting dog breeds instead of misrepresenting wolfdogs.
Image
"Hufflepuff’s symbol is a badger, which is fluffy, adorable, unassuming, and will rip your face off if you threaten something it cares about, which sums the House up quite neatly."

Korinne
コリン

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Katlin » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:31 am

Valravn wrote:IMO they are misrepresenting dog breeds instead of misrepresenting wolfdogs.
I totally agree.
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by balto13 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Valravn wrote:I unfollowed this person almost immediately after I followed them. While I appreciate their attempts to educate the general public about wolfdogs, I don't much like how they act like they know beyond a shadow of a doubt what an animal is. Just because it's not a wolfdog doesn't automatically make it a husky/gsd. Most of these dogs are too mixed to be a couple of breeds. IMO they are misrepresenting dog breeds instead of misrepresenting wolfdogs.

I completely agree and feel this is the worst part about a lot of people who have misrepresentation websites, facebooks, ect. The know it all attitude, it turns people off from wanting to hear what they say ... so it's also misrepresentation of people against misrepresentation. hahaha.

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Tatzel » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:40 pm

They certainly come off a little holier-than-you, although it could be just the cold, hard text that gives off the vibe.

Just that they say "verdict: not a wolf" instead of "conclusion: most likely not a wolf".
I mean 'verdict', really? Like they're some higher trial that knows it all with absolute certainty.

For what's it worth though, I appreciate unveiling dogs that are obviously not high contents or even mid contents despite owners claiming them to be. There is also an educational factor which the general public can benefit from, just the tone...

Edit: I'm tempted to send them pictures of puwos and ask them if they believe them to be part wolf. But thy most likely know about the experiment.
I mean do these animals look anything like they're F1 or F2 wolfdogs?
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Tiantai » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:55 pm

Ironically, MANY non-traditional wolfdogs slip past our radars all the time because they do not look like what most people perceive to be how wolfdogs should look especially to those who have focused too heavily on husky-type x wolf crosses OR have not seen a true wolfdog before.

I most definitely do not agree with where they claim that these crosses between wolves and non-Nordic spitz types are rare when they are not! People have crossed various wolves with all kinds of dog breeds from labradors, dobermans, great Pyrenees, rottweilers, and of course, the poodle wolfdogs bred by Dr. Ziemen ARE F1 wolf x poodles! While the site does have some good points about misrepresentations, I often argue that many websites such as the texx-wolf-tails.webs.com focusses TOO MUCH on wolves x Arctic breed mixed that they tend to forget that certain wolfdogs like this labrador x wolf exists too!

On the bright side, due to looking LESS wolfish, these wolf x crossbreeds that exist in Ontario and other places where wolfdogs are banned are kind of safe under the hands of responsible unlicenced owners.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by cindy23323 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:30 pm

This is Ice Warrior the arctic wolf you were asking for photos of, that is in the ANCD's back ground. She is related to my Loki. Whom no I did not get from Jeff but from Deborah Warrick of St. Augustine wild reserve.

Image
Image
Tiantai wrote:A few things bother me about this post
Cindy23323 wrote: Info found out on the ancd line

"Xena is a wolfdog bred by Karen Evans of Wichita Falls, TX. Her parents were Ladyhawke and Nighthawke 2, bred by Lynn Williams of Howling Hills Kennel in NH. Xena's % is around 65% .

Xena was not the only wolfdog in the ANCD foundation stock. Apollo was an F3, aprox 30% wolfdog, son of Luna. Luna was an F2, 44% wolfdog from a Siberian Husky bred with an 87.5% arctic wolf/Great Pyrenees litter.

I do not remember who Luna's breeder was but her wolfdog parent was bred by Linda Wenger in CA. It was out of a 3/4 wolf 1/4 Great Pyrenees female bred with Ice Warrior, a pure arctic wolf from Rick Halvorson. Ice Warrior was a well known wolf in the 1980's who appeared in several movies and publications.

Luna was going to be bred to her son Apollo in 1998, but it never happened, probably because she was too old."
First of all, where the world did the 87.5% number come from? When estimating wolf-content people don't normally put decimals, it's usually full numbers. Not to sound rude, though this number looks a bit random to me. Just my opinion of course, I am trying to start a fight with Cindy whom I look up to as a true wolfdog expert. But unless someone can post a photo of that said Arctic wolf, I'm not sure if the wolf was actually of the Arctic subspecies. How do they know that the wolf in the background is an Arctic wolf? Although Arctic wolfdog crosses do exist, most of the time many cream-coloured wolfdogs are the result of breeding with a White German Shepherd.

But that leads to my next question, why would someone want to breed an Arctic wolf to a Great Pyrenese? Plus if Luna was an F2 from such a line assuming if that story is true and that there was some backcrossing with another pure Arctic wolf then shouldn't Apollo look much more wolfish like the wolfdog Valko? Cuz when I look at his photo, he seem more doggy-ish while Valko looked more like a legitimate lower-mid content wolfdog.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and questions over those posts. But until I see an actual UC Davis paper confirming the existence of wolf-content in one of the current ANCD, I will keep these info in my "maybe there is, maybe not" memory box.

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by cindy23323 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:38 pm

This animal is Sheena and Mountain Dew a offspring of Ice Warrior and Mountain Dew

Image

Downlines of this pairing

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Katlin » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:13 pm

Where do these guys come in around the ANCD lineage?
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by cindy23323 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:19 pm

I believe ice warrior would be llike a great great grandparent to Apollo. So it depends how many more downlines Anns added from then. However its a lie saying wolf was not used to create the ANCD no matter what. Shes spreading false info saying no wolf and that only those other dogs were used to make the line.

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by cindy23323 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:26 pm

This is Wicca who was owned by Sklar Breton, a none wolfdog breeder in Canada.
A ancd she can tell a lot of info on the line as Ann told her the truth about them.
Here's her site http://wolfechovalley.tripod.com/index.html

Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:36 pm

Thanks for all the additional info Cindy. I have no problem with low wolf-content (so long as the new owners are prepared and know what to expect) but I do have a big problem with breeders who purposefully lie and misrepresent their dogs / bloodlines, and sell puppies to unsuspecting owners who live in places where wolfdogs are illegal....
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by cindy23323 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:18 pm

I just found out yesterday that a Tamaskan owner had they're ANCD tested at UCDavis and that the test came back with wolf content in the animal. It was made public and then suddenly they deleted everything down to they're facebook page because of it. Someone else just trying to cover up all the info.
Last edited by HiTenshi16 on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I edited the names to protect the owner and their dogs.

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:59 pm

cindy23323 wrote:I just found out yesterday that a Tamaskan owner had they're ANCD tested at UCDavis and that the test came back with wolf content in the animal. It was made public and then suddenly they deleted everything down to they're facebook page because of it. Someone else just trying to cover up all the info.
Saying that publicly endangers their dogs because of where they live. That is why they took their page down. So far most of this has been a 'he said/she said' battle and no one seemed to be able to give them any evidence or proof of these claims.
I edited the names to protect the owner and their dogs.
Image

User avatar
firleymj
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:38 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by firleymj » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:52 pm

This is truly a shame. As I have observed elsewhere on this forum, our faith in DNA testing is grossly ahead of the basic mathematics of what can be done. We are, after all, trying to distinguish between subspecies of Canis Lupus, at most the differences of a hundred or so markers in a genome of 110,000+ elements.

No test that cannot be repeated over and over (at least 8 times on an individual) ought to be considered dispositive.

The Florida Lupine Association offered some wonderful insight:

"It is important to note, however, that tests focused solely on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) are inherently biased. Because mitochondria are inherited maternally — with none of the crossing over or independent assortment that occurs in nuclear DNA (nDNA) - all animals in a given matriarchal line will have the same mtDNA. Thus, mtDNA tests can only show whether an animal‟s matriarchal line is “wolf” or “dog”; they cannot determine if an animal is a wolfdog with both “wolf” and “dog” genes. The only sure way to accurately determine if an animal is a wolf, wolfdog, or dog through genetic testing is to examine both mtDNA and nDNA markers -and possibly even Y chromosomal markers in males, because the Y chromosome is inherited paternally and is consistent along the patriarchal line just as mtDNA is to the matriarchal line."


REF: http://www.floridalupine.org%2Fpublications%2FPDF%2FFWC_Pheno_Pamphlet_2011.pdf&ei=G-LpVIKdO6fCsAS3pYHACA&usg=AFQjCNHLtXSPuiFQh7oOhJ76TYIjQMFawA&sig2=YygZ9k83MLhmLhXq57OTsA&bvm=bv.86475890,d.cWc

DogDNA.com (another DNA analysis service) notes the following caveats on its website:
What happens if my dog is composed of non-validated breed(s)? 


The Wisdom Panel 2.0® Breed Test can only determine if any of the validated breeds make-up your pet's breed composition. If your pet's composition contains non-validated breed(s), the test may identify a breed earlier in your dog's ancestry. This may cause identification of apparent unlikely breeds for your animal's composition. 



Does the Wisdom Panel 2.0® Breed Test work on dogs from outside the U.S.? 


The Wisdom Panel 2.0® Breed Test was developed using a population of breeds common to North America. Although we have plans on validating the test internationally, the current product has not been tested on populations of dogs in regions outside of North America, which may cause results to vary. 


ANCDs, Tamaskans, Utonogans, Northern Inuits, Greenland dogs, and other "primitive breeds" fail to meet both of the validity criteria above: our populations are often intermixed across continents, and our dogs are not "common" or "validated" in part because of their small populations relative to the 75 million estimated dogs in North America alone.

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't use genetics as a help, but if we're honest with ourselves, we ought not rely on one test from one location with a proprietary mechanism to determine life or death for our companions.

Science without validation and verification is simply belief, and while belief may be beneficial, even necessary in some contexts, it is a disservice to our animals and ourselves to substitute a claim of knowing when all we are really doing is narrowing possibilities, and not dispensing certainty.

Someday, I hope we have enough of these wonderful new/rare breeds to DO good science, but we're not there yet. Please help us educate the community to the real situation.
My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown
The greatest love is a mother's; then a dog's; then a sweetheart's. ~Polish Proverb

The human of Ch.(ARBA) and Ch.(KCUSA) Hawthorne James Watson (call name Kona)

Image
http://www.anthracitetamaskan.com

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:54 pm

Wisdom Panel 2.0 is not a very accurate test to begin with. They only test for the list of breeds in their database, which you will not find wolfdogs, Tamaskans, ANCDs, Utonagans, ect.
We have done the Wisdom Panel 2.0 on our mixed breed to verify the breeds we believe her to be, which is German Shepherd (sire) x Labrador/Australian Cattle Dog (dam). The results were Norwegian Elkhound/ Keeshond mix x Norwegian Elkhound/ Akita mix, which she looks nothing like any of, and if both her parents were Norwegian Elkhound mixes, she should look like a Norwegian Elkhound mix.
http://rv.wisdompanel.com/Reports/MTAwN ... 1424623760
Image

User avatar
kcyin1569
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:53 am
Location: USA

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by kcyin1569 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:46 pm

I will admit, I'm a bit disappointed. However, being a skeptic at heart, I personally would really like to see any official genealogical records that directly link any wolf/wolf-hybrids to the ANCD lines before I have any hard judgement against Ann and her dogs. I'm under the assumption that she keeps records of all of her breeding stock up to the very beginning foundation, since she advertises for 100% health certified stock and does a lot of health testing on her dogs (for hips, eyes, and temperament, for starters). I also think that genotyping isn't very accurate, and I don't think that any ANCD owners have gotten any kind of official/professional phenotyping done. I've chatted on and off with Ann for years now and she doesn't strike me as someone who would lie or mislead about something so important as knowing whether or not her dogs have recent wolf-heritage, especially when it can put her dogs/pups in danger of being confiscated or even euthanized (she cares deeply for her dogs).

I'm not saying to blindly give her the benefit of the doubt. All I'm saying is that there's probably more to this than just jumping to conclusions without every possible piece of information.
When the wolves cry
to the Blue Corn Moon,
When they howl at
the passing of mountains,
When their gold eyes
pierce your mind and soul,
When you become one
with the wolf within,
then I will love you.

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:22 am

How many ANCD owners have you spoken with? More than a few wolfdog community members also say that Ann misrepresents her dogs. There is also the issue of people asking Ann questions and they often have gotten rude remarks.
Unfortunately, doing health testing alone does not always mean that a breeder is reputable/responsible. There is much more to take into account.
Image

User avatar
kcyin1569
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:53 am
Location: USA

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by kcyin1569 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:17 pm

Not as many as I would like. I'm trying to get more information from her, but she's either busy or ignoring me. She seems so nice though, you know? It's sad to think she's being irresponsible and misrepresenting her dogs.
When the wolves cry
to the Blue Corn Moon,
When they howl at
the passing of mountains,
When their gold eyes
pierce your mind and soul,
When you become one
with the wolf within,
then I will love you.

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2737
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by Katlin » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:50 pm

Honestly I wouldn't want to buy from her. She refused to tell me what matings she was doing unless I paid the deposit for a puppy...$700.00. Yeah right! When used to ask her questions I got snippy remarks so now I don't bother. Sure those ANCD's look nice, but I've given up the desire to own one. Not to mention her jacking up her price with every litter and breeding dogs that are well over 11 years old. Sorry, I will not purchase a puppy from her.
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

Jesykasflowers
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:39 pm
Location: Virginia

Alaskan Noble Companion Dog

Post by Jesykasflowers » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:18 am

I read a few things in here about ANCDs, and most people seem to have figured it out. However, I have researched this "breed" and the breeder extensively, and have some information that may help people inking the decision to buy from that breeder or not:

Hi- I read your post about the ANCDs, and there is something that you need to know as well as any readers who may have read your post: I have actual proof that Ann is lying about the wolf content in her dogs. I have contacted two individuals who Ann bought breeding stock from, and they were all HIGB CONTENT wolf dogs. After doing the math, the dogs she is currently selling are actually low- to mid-content wolfdogs, which has lead to many unsuccessful, miserable, and sad endings for the dogs and their owners. Many of the dogs suffer from excessive shyness, aggression, severe anxiety, and one that I know of has been sent to a wolf sanctuary. All because of uneducated owners, who were told they were receiving dogs, not wolfdogs. The animals were not raised properly, according to the specific needs of a wolfdog pup, and there has been much suffering all around. YES, there are a FEW success stories, however the majority of the dogs do not end so well. And any buyer you talk to will tell you that what they received was a wolf hybrid, not simply just a dog. Unfortunately, this irresponsible breeder has lied to many, many people, and she talks as if she is a total narcissist, so there is no way to reason with her. She takes people's money and then becomes rude and nasty. I later learned of her poor breeding ethics and morals (she is forcing her prized 14 year old bitch to breed via intrauterine insemination... Even though the bitch has no interest in breeding anymore, she supposedly has all of her dogs debarked, and she has more dogs than she is willing to admit). The only reason this person is not a puppy mill is because wolfdogs only come into heat one season a year... If she could get more litters, she absolutely would! It's all very sad, and the worst part is that not only are people buying what they think is simply a wolf lookalike, but that the dogs are the ones to suffer. This breeder has even sold dogs to owners who live in apartments... No wolfdog should have to be confined to an apartment. And that wolfdog's story is particularly sad, however the owner has been fantastic and has been doing everything he can to accommodate the dog. I just hope this helps to shed some light, and that more people will hopefully wake up and realize that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. These are wolf lookalikes because they COME from wolves, and very recently. It is easy to be duped, because at first the breeder is very convincing and informative. But when she thinks that she's given enough information, she becomes rude, nasty and short tempered (AFTER you give her a whopping 50% deposit!!!), and refuses to "play nicely." This woman is a pathogenic liar. And, once again, it is the animals that suffer because of it.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog

Post by Tiantai » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:51 pm

Jesykasflowers wrote:I read a few things in here about ANCDs, and most people seem to have figured it out. However, I have researched this "breed" and the breeder extensively, and have some information that may help people inking the decision to buy from that breeder or not:

Hi- I read your post about the ANCDs, and there is something that you need to know as well as any readers who may have read your post: I have actual proof that Ann is lying about the wolf content in her dogs. I have contacted two individuals who Ann bought breeding stock from, and they were all HIGB CONTENT wolf dogs. After doing the math, the dogs she is currently selling are actually low- to mid-content wolfdogs, which has lead to many unsuccessful, miserable, and sad endings for the dogs and their owners. Many of the dogs suffer from excessive shyness, aggression, severe anxiety, and one that I know of has been sent to a wolf sanctuary. All because of uneducated owners, who were told they were receiving dogs, not wolfdogs. The animals were not raised properly, according to the specific needs of a wolfdog pup, and there has been much suffering all around. YES, there are a FEW success stories, however the majority of the dogs do not end so well. And any buyer you talk to will tell you that what they received was a wolf hybrid, not simply just a dog. Unfortunately, this irresponsible breeder has lied to many, many people, and she talks as if she is a total narcissist, so there is no way to reason with her. She takes people's money and then becomes rude and nasty. I later learned of her poor breeding ethics and morals (she is forcing her prized 14 year old bitch to breed via intrauterine insemination... Even though the bitch has no interest in breeding anymore, she supposedly has all of her dogs debarked, and she has more dogs than she is willing to admit). The only reason this person is not a puppy mill is because wolfdogs only come into heat one season a year... If she could get more litters, she absolutely would! It's all very sad, and the worst part is that not only are people buying what they think is simply a wolf lookalike, but that the dogs are the ones to suffer. This breeder has even sold dogs to owners who live in apartments... No wolfdog should have to be confined to an apartment. And that wolfdog's story is particularly sad, however the owner has been fantastic and has been doing everything he can to accommodate the dog. I just hope this helps to shed some light, and that more people will hopefully wake up and realize that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. These are wolf lookalikes because they COME from wolves, and very recently. It is easy to be duped, because at first the breeder is very convincing and informative. But when she thinks that she's given enough information, she becomes rude, nasty and short tempered (AFTER you give her a whopping 50% deposit!!!), and refuses to "play nicely." This woman is a pathogenic liar. And, once again, it is the animals that suffer because of it.
Thank you for sharing this. It's very disheartening to read these terrible stories but by this point I'm sure most of us here on the forum are no longer surprised. I spoke with a friend of mine name Rowan in Maple Ridge, British Columbia, a year ago and she told me that she was sketchy about the "no wolf" claims from the beginning but that she sees little wolf-contents in the current ANCD. Still, from the way Ann had responded to people who asked about the pedigrees is a red flag that I regret ignoring coupled with all the information that have come to light.
Image

seun246
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:04 pm
Location: Petaluma, California

Re: Alaskan Noble Companion Dog (ANCD)

Post by seun246 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:45 am

cindy23323 wrote:This is Wicca who was owned by Sklar Breton, a none wolfdog breeder in Canada.
A ancd she can tell a lot of info on the line as Ann told her the truth about them.
Here's her site http://wolfechovalley.tripod.com/index.html

This is actually Zena mother of Wicca.

Post Reply