Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

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Nimwey
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Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Nimwey » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:17 am



Now, let's not talk about Millan, just about those "wolfdogs". :mrgreen:

I got in a little bit of an argument about this on YouTube, with someone who claims to have "worked with wolves for 10 years!" and thought I've "got to be *** kidding!" when I said I see little to no wolf at all in these dogs.

Now we all know the vast, vast majority of alleged wolfdogs out there are pure dogs. Crosses with shepherd, husky, malamute, whatnot. But no wolf. It's often just an "advertising gimmick" for irresponsible breeders to raise the price tag.

...and most uneducated owners wouldn't know the difference. They could have a dog like this:

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...and they would swear that it's almost pure wolf, because "the seller told them so".

And that's what I see in this Dog Whisperer episode. In the beginning they show short clips of Hyde and Vada, from a different episode and I do think they are low- or possibly lower mid-content. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUy6ku-qPg4)
(No way there's any Mexican or Arctic in them, though.)

But in the three dogs in this episode - Sheba, Ramses and Sofie - I see low to NO content. These to me, simply look like dogs, from nosetip to tailtip. (Except perhaps Ramses in some scenes. He also sort of looks like a Lupo Italiano or Kunming Wolfdog, but I wonder how much wolf there is in those breeds as well.)

Also I can't see that any of the problems with the dogs in this episode are anything other than dog-problems, that you could get with any husky or shepherd-mix as well.

http://s18.postimg.org/46w49ufih/Sheba.jpg
Dark eyes, very typical husky-looking face and ears, little husky muzzle, curved tail almost constantly waving over her back...?

http://s18.postimg.org/3rkugttl5/Ramses.jpg
German shepherd-look through and through. Not that he can't be a low-content, I think he's the only one who resembles a wolf the slightest (but then it's very little, and there can of course be low-contents that look literally nothing like a wolf, as there can be rather wolfy dogs that are pure dogs).
But still - curved saber-tail, GSD roach-back even, very typical GSD profile, and lookit those tall ears.

http://s18.postimg.org/iotbhu6tl/Sofie.jpg
Let's see... a very short-haired, dark-eyed, cream-colored dog with super-tall bunny ears that collide with each other.
Oh yeah. I can really see the "60% wolfdog" there.

You guys probably think I'm really overanalyzing here, and I know, I always do that. :oops:
But it's all in the interest of science...:)

(And one only needs to take a look at this awesome site: http://www.texx-wolf-tails.com/wolfdogscomparison.htm ...and their pages speficially on phenotyping, low-content, mid-content, and high-content.)

What do you think?
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by HiTenshi16 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:54 pm

Agree with you 100%! It is very frustrating seeing so many misrepresentations, even more frustrating when you see it on popular shows or on the news. One that had me face-palming was a recent news report of some "wolves" in a rescue.
http://www.ketknbc.com/news/wolves-in-tyler
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by OddFoxx » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:39 pm

Part of the problem, I think, is that most people don't know what pure wolves look like, just the ones they've seen on TV. In movies and TV, pure wolves are very seldom used for filming and advertising, and instead replaced with convincing doubles such as Northern Inuits, NAIDs, German Shepherd outcrosses, various Huskies and Malamutes, and even Belgian Groenendaels and Tervurens. I've even run into someone who allegedly trained wild animals for use in advertising and he complimented my wolf-hybrid's manners. When I was little I lived in a Sioux reservation town up in northern Montana and having wolfdogs was fairly common, some people with pure wolves, some with lesser content mixes. I was even offered a few pure wolf pups over the years across the country. But those dogs rarely get filmed and publicized. The dogs that are trainable and friendly who are used to portray them, however, do, which is why people are so easily convinced that something looks like a wolf. (Which is kinda why I get annoyed with some of the NAID breeders for touting super "wolfy-looking" dogs with blue eyes and charging more for the blue eyes.) So there it is from an advertising perspective :p Those dogs in the photos? I see a lovely husky with great colors, a GSD mix, and a lab or American Dingo mix with ears that could get XM Radio.
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Tana » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:55 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:Agree with you 100%! It is very frustrating seeing so many misrepresentations, even more frustrating when you see it on popular shows or on the news.
I also agree.

A little bit offtopic: problems these "wolfdogs" had (Sheba, Sofie), are nothing special, any dog with this kind of lack of psychophysical stimulation and guidance could have. I like when Jennifer said: "if you have two legs and you are physically capable of getting around, there is nothing like being in the outdoors with your animal". I have nothing against treadmill or something, I just think people are lazy and they are not aware of what it means to have a dog (for start, let alone real wolfdog) and what dog actually need. In this show there were so many people who didn't walk their dogs at all, because they have big house and big garden and a pool...and then they wonder why they have problems (?!) :roll:

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by chelle784 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:12 pm

I haven't watched the link you posted but I seem to recall watching it a while ago and I thought the wolf expert told the owner of the cream dog that the dog was definitely not whatever % wolf so agrees with what you said?

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by chelle784 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:19 pm

so I don't think you are over analyzing. I think it is also what you are used to seeing so as people have mentioned already, a lot of people don't know what wolves/hybrids look like because they haven't seen them. When I first saw pics of tamaskans years back I thought they were wolfy looking. Now when I see tamaskans, I think they just look like dogs because I see tamaskans every day and I can see how different they are compared to the wolves in the wolf sanctuary I volunteered at.

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Tatzel » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:46 pm

Yeah I saw this episode, so much BS.
I agree that Ramses is the only one who seems to have any wolf content at all, even though probably very low.

Anyone else thought the wolfdog expert's way of dealing with a supposed wolfdog (Sheba) was dangerous and misplaced? @ grabbing her at neckfur, holding her there and growling straight into her face
It's a dangerous thing to do with a dog that doesn't know you and which you don't know, but with a wolf(dog)???
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Katlin » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:11 pm

I already commented about this video, but I can't remember where. I was so disgusted by the so called "expert" with the first dog, that I couldn't watch more than 10 minutes. Just because a dog has a double coated tail doesn't make it a wolf dog!!!
Anyone else thought the wolfdog expert's way of dealing with a supposed wolfdog (Sheba) was dangerous and misplaced? @ grabbing her at neckfur, holding her there and growling straight into her face
It's a stupid thing to do, she was damn lucky she wasn't bitten. Sam wouldn't have bitten her, but Wylie would have. You can not growl in my dog's face as a punishment, he will get so scared that he bites.

The fact they use percentages is another big red flag that she isn't an expert. Experts NEVER say percentages, high, mid, or low and then variations of those three.

CM is a bloody joke and I refuse to use his methods with my dogs, they are so brutal and I have a pretty "soft" dog that - if I were to ever kick him as CM does as a light correction (really.....like...really?) - he would probably not trust me for a long time.

Back to the dogs.

Sheba: No content

Ramses: maaaaaaybe a bit of content, I say that because of the eyes and the stop, as well as the very heavy head

Sofie: As much content as my lab.

As I said, he's a joke.
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by chelle784 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:42 pm

I know this thread wasn't meant to turn into a discussion on CM but I also don't like his methods/ his choke, prong collars etc./ most things that he does and uses but the one thing I do agree with in this video (if it's the same one I remember) is the part basically saying don't get a wolf hybrid as a pet.

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Katlin » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:44 pm

chelle784 wrote:the part basically saying don't get a wolf hybrid as a pet.
But he's not using wolf hybrids to demonstrate that point. That's what's annoying.
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Tana » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:33 am

Katlin wrote:But he's not using wolf hybrids to demonstrate that point. That's what's annoying.
I think CM didn't know that at all, like he admit he doesn't have any experience with wolfdogs and wolves. I think show creators/director was the one who found these dogs for the show.

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by ligerwolve » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:42 pm

I can see a smidge in the first two dogs. I think the second dog appears more because his behaviour is what you might expect. I don't really see any in the last dog. I agree that the first and last dog just have normal dog behaviours. The first dog I just wanted to slap the owners to be honest. They seem to me like the kind of people that get dogs totally unsuited to them because they want a certain look.

I think the "expert" was probably reading the dogs behaviour and I know other people that do so with no problem. The problem I think with these shows is they show people how to do what an expert did but not how to read the behaviour. I would never recommend a general member of the public to stick there face into and growl at ANY dog. They cant read the cues.

Which really brings us to the next point that most pet owners are not up to owning an animal that's that amount of work. Wolf content or not.

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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Tatzel » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:46 am

It's pretty evident to me that Sheba is a product of boredom and lack of exercise.
Simply having a big yard is not enough. Then they complain about her digging up the flowers, destroying the sprinklers and pots - well, look at their backyard, it's blank, bland and boring - a pit of dirt. There is nothing there to stimulate the dog, so when they finally put something interessting there, they get mad that she goes straight for it?

Dogs are bored outside by themselves. So she breaks out to go and check out the neigbourhood because no one will with her. I don't blame her.
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Re: Wolfdogs: Out of the Wild

Post by Tiantai » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:31 pm

While there is a possibility for some of the dogs featured to have mild wolf, Jennifer definitely bs too much and I don't recommend that episode to anyone wishing to learn about wolf-contents
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