Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

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Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Taz » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:47 pm

I found this interesting, thoughts?
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/120827
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:49 pm

I had a long response that I lost :|....

I completely agree. I own an AKC Sibe.

When I first purchased Ianto, the breeder was reputable (1-2 litters a year). But when her focus drifted to child beauty pageants, which is the only thing on her FB page now (she has 4 kids), her litters went to 2-3 a year. She had 5 bitches at one point, then dropped to 3. Her quality, likewise dropped. Ianto's dad, however lean, is her main stud and his body is slightly longer than tall; not as much as Ianto.

AKC's are bred different than Working lines (WL--which are different from Seppala's). AKC's are bred to Standard; something that is constantly in flux so what is the "standard"? The standard used to be, according to breeders pages I searched through before settling on the one I purchased Ianto from, dogs were 50-55lbs and bitches were 45-50. About 3-4 years ago they (the breeders) changed it to dogs being 45-60 and bitches to 35-50. You shouldn't change the standard to fit the dog, the dog is supposed to fit the standard. Bitches are supposed to stand between 20-22 inches and Dogs 21-23. AKC says they're supposed to be slightly longer than tall, but how much is too much? Ianto, an AKC out of Zorro http://www.siberianhuskybreeder.net/zorrospage.htm and a bitch that the breeder never got papers on. Zorro is much more refined than the picture on the AKC website for Sibe Standard, while Ianto looks just like it. Ianto, however, is 25 inches tall and 28 inches long; much too large for the breed standard without the fact that he's 70lbs. He's closer to the GSD standard than Sibe!

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:51 pm

WL Sibes, on the other hand, are compact, lithe, working machines, IMO, how the breed should have ALWAYS stayed. They are bred on intelligence, drive, health, and leadership capabilities. Some of the biggest boys in WL that I know of push 50, maybe 55. That's it; and it's leg, fur and lung. Ianto is stocky, compared to WL Sibes. I get offended when someone says my dog is fat. He's not. He's stocky; the direction the breed is going for some reason.

Before I got interested in Tams, I was looking into breeding Sibes. I've loved Sibes and they're wolfy appearance and personality since I was 10 and I threw mysellf into researching the breed. When I was looking into getting a breeding animal--Ianto is sterilized--I found all sorts; breeders breeding only blue eyes, only brown, fluffy/wooly coats, black and whites only, breeding small, breeding large, breeding bitches less than 2 years old (sometimes on both heats). I was appalled. When you're a breeder, have been involed with the breed for as long as you claim, how can you even think to breed a bitch less than 2?

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:52 pm

From reading through so many breeder websites trying to find the right breeding animal, and going through a myriad of racing kennels, imo, there seems to be some animosity between the two. I feel that some AKC problems stem from a perfect pedigree of AKC dogs for 15+ generations. A lot of kennels boast that they have Monadnock, Innisfree, Seppalta, and they use those to jack up their prices. But those lines were in their dogs 15-20 years ago; there's no recent WL in a lot of AKC kennels, and I think the WL know that AKC is slowly ruining the breed.

I went bikejoring with Ianto 3 days ago. He pulled me 5miles like a bat outta hell. I almost had to drag him the five miles back to the car after an hour and a half of rest. From my WL Sibe friends, they run their yearlings MUCH further.

There really is no comparison.

The AKC line is a controversy to begin with. Most people don't know that it was started from a 3x inbred litter :? Hence why health problems are so prevalent in AKC's vs. WL and Seppala's.

I think that was everything I lost...

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Balto » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:04 am

i have a siberian husky, he is not a pedigree dog so i dont know much about his ancestors..
but he can easily bikejoring with me for 30km

i often see a huskys that dont want to run or pull, but much often i see people who are not fit for their husky.. people who are overweight and cant follow their dog, they cant run him or spend much time outdoors as he needs..
more than 90% of siberian huskys are in wrong hands

and the breeders are not helping, they want to have a dog that will be suitable for every home, not working/sporting dog that is already hard to maintaine..
i really dont like that and if i ever get a siberian husky again, that will be from some of the working line kennels

as for the Tamaskans, i would also like to see them as working/sporting dogs.. in sleding as in sar or some other line of work

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:28 pm

I love this article! Thank you so much for sharing. This is absolutely applicable to the Tamaskan, and is all about not "caving in to what is awarded in the ring." Breeders need to stick to the original intended purpose of a breed :D

I said this before, but I'll repeat: I know not everyone wants a Tamaskan that pulls, or tracks, etc. BUT we can have both worlds. A structurally sound dog is a healthy dog and if we keep that and temperament and health as our focus we will retain the working ability if we wish. Poor rear angulation is bad on a working dog but also bad for a companion dog, too because it can lead to injury and a life of pain.

Anyhow…thanks again for posting. This is nicely written and clear :D
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Ryphen » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:10 am

I think that's what's confusing to people. Just because a dog is structurally and functionally able to do work, doesn't mean it's going to want to do it. Not every healthy Labrador becomes a seeing eye dog. Not every healthy German Shepherd becomes a police dog. Not because they physically can't do the work, but because they don't have the personality/temperment for it. You can have a perfectly healthy, functional dog that just wants to be a couch potato. No need to make it so they can't do simple things like breathe or walk correctly.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Tana » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:06 pm

Ryphen wrote:Just because a dog is structurally and functionally able to do work, doesn't mean it's going to want to do it. Not every healthy Labrador becomes a seeing eye dog. Not every healthy German Shepherd becomes a police dog. Not because they physically can't do the work, but because they don't have the personality/temperment for it. You can have a perfectly healthy, functional dog that just wants to be a couch potato. No need to make it so they can't do simple things like breathe or walk correctly.
Well said. I agree.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:20 pm

I am no expert on huskies but I have spent time with both the SL and WL groups. I have to say my number one opinion on discussion like this is NEITHER group is perfect. In fact in my opinion saying one group is ruining it is so counter productive.

There are problems and irresponsible breeders in SL. There are problems that are just as grave and breeders just as bad in WL.

I know in GSDs people carry on like there is some major divide and the number of couch experts that say "oh show breeders have ruined the breed" is crazy. It doesn't help the breed progress. I can tell you working with WL GSDs there are a number of major health issues that exist that end in PTS at an early age and the "breeders" that supply them don't care. There are also breeders with clear breeding direction that have dogs that adhere to the standard and win at shows but also compete and work.

I know WL huskies that look nothing like a husky at all and certainly some that have been bred to the extreme in temperament too. They make great racers but are way more full on than normal. Not to mention some of the best racers I have seen have actually been crosses. Racers have paved their own way due to need. There is a similar trend in GSDs where the sporting dogs are WAY too full on and WL that are so solid, heavy and dipped in the back.

There is also nothing wrong with having a stable pet.

I think the thing the Tamaskan community should be looking out for (and all dog breeds) is extremes. An extreme in WL is no better than an extreme in SL. Those dogs aren't bred for the right reasons. A SL dog shouldn't be bred to win ribbons and a WL dog shouldn't be bred at the expense of the standard. Surely the ideal lays some where in the middle?

I have personally always loved the idea (and maybe its because my background is in GSDs) of breeding animals needing to go through both a physical exam by a judge and a temperament test. The extent of that would need to be decided by the group but that is where Id like to see the breed go. No extremes.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:33 pm

Has anyone posted up the youtube speech on here about Labs? Different breed but the way she explains the lack of functionality in modern dogs due to a lack of understanding is really good.

If you have a little time this is a really interesting listen. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFlng4i8_R4

Sorry if its been posted before.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Tana » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:50 pm

I respect the breeds who still have dual purpose...I would like to see Tamaskans have that too. I like Arrow (outcross stud) and I think he is a perfect example of a good working, sledding type dog and also of a stable, loving pet.

As for other breeds, which have SL and WL I would never ever pick a SL, no matter which breed I would choose. Because even in WL litters you can find enough dogs, who are suitable for pet homes (only), just like Ryphen said. You don't need to make a special couche potato/ show version/caricature of the breed. If you want a couch potato/pet then you look at the FCI 9, it's a plenty of choice there. And here are also rescue dogs from the shelters who need loving pet homes. My opinion.
ligerwolve wrote:I can tell you working with WL GSDs there are a number of major health issues that exist that end in PTS
Can you tell more about that? (May I ask you which WL GSD breeders would you recommend? I am also a GSD fan. P.S. You can PM me. Thanks)

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:06 am

There are some lovely dual purpose GSD breeders out there. As I said their dogs go to working homes (although in Australia the majority of armed forces/police dogs are bred by their own breeders) bit also perform well in the ring.

I tend not to buy just straight WL as at least here you look at low life expectancy, skin issues and skeletal issues.

A GSD should be an all rounder. Good for work and good for home. What ever job you give him. He should never be built like a table. Or look like a greyhound. He shouldn't be roached either. I will see if I can find some pics later.

There are breeders around like this every where although I can only recommend breeders from Australia that have met and know of their dogs. I know where my next pup will come from :)

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:11 am

If you listen to that speech. That's a good example of a balanced view. Fit for purpose but structurely correct. Able to show but if the judge puts up a dog that is unsound, it's unsound. Judges are people and while worth listening to an unbiased opinion they can still make mistakes.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Balto » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:39 am

of course that the extremes are not good, but i think that there must be some good breeders who can participate in races and also go to show if they want, to keep the standard but also to keep the working abilities of the breed

i dont see many GSD here working, people are going more and more with malinios and dutch sheperds

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Katlin » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:21 pm

Balto wrote:of course that the extremes are not good, but i think that there must be some good breeders who can participate in races and also go to show if they want, to keep the standard but also to keep the working abilities of the breed
Totally agree :)

Here we have lots of shepherds but almost no Belgian Malinois. The problem with the shepherds we get here is that most of them are american imports that are brutally banana backed and then inexperienced breeders have tried to breed it out, resulting in a total disaster of a breed with poor workability. There are a few Czech lines that are stunning (one breeder in particular produces drool-worthy dogs that you can always tell come from her. Her kennel name is Janzhaus) and a few police dogs that look pretty nice...but the shepherd is pretty ruined here.

As for the huskies in Alberta. We have short little tanks, I think that's the best way to describe them. Most of the purebred huskies here are on tiny little legs, but are super muscled in the chest and back to create a lighter dog that could pull you over with ease. It's awesome how many people here actually work their huskies, and the climate is good enough that they do really well and have nice coats. I see lots of people that bikejor or rollerblade with their huskies.

With all this being said, my city is very "rescue oriented" so it's drilled into our heads that adopting is much better and people don't tend to like hearing you've purchased from a breeder, so I don't see nearly as many breeder dogs as you would in other cities.
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Tana » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:39 pm

Balto wrote:of course that the extremes are not good, but i think that there must be some good breeders who can participate in races and also go to show if they want, to keep the standard but also to keep the working abilities of the breed
That's what I mean with dual purpose, good for work, well behaved family member and good for shows. (Hunting dogs, vizslas, are good example).
ligerwolve wrote:I tend not to buy just straight WL as at least here you look at low life expectancy, skin issues and skeletal issues.


Interesting, European lines from Germany, Czech republic are very healthy.
ligerwolve wrote:A GSD should be an all rounder. Good for work and good for home. What ever job you give him. He should never be built like a table. Or look like a greyhound. He shouldn't be roached either. I will see if I can find some pics later.
Of course, excellent nerves, clearness in head and stability are for me already in the package, if I talk about good working dog. Built like a table? What do you mean with that? I like the structure of Hektor von Schwaben, son of Horand von Grafrath. Horand looks like Max Stephanitz wanted and that's how GSDs should looks like.
ligerwolve wrote:There are breeders around like this every where although I can only recommend breeders from Australia that have met and know of their dogs. I know where my next pup will come from :)
Please do. I would like to see your taste ;)

My favorite GSDs are: males: Kato Aritar Bastet http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/ ... tar-Bastet
(from Aritar Bastet, my favourite kennel) and Dinoso vom Eisernen Kreuz (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/ ... rnen-Kreuz). Female: Paris von der Mohnwiese (http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/ ... -Mohnwiese). I like smaller, lighter dogs around 32-36kg. Other kennels I like: von der Hagenmuhle, v. Romantos Hoeve, ze Stříbrného kamene, z Lomeckeho polesi (Martin Pejša) and von der Drachenkehle).
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:52 pm

I would just back up and say that I have a general concern that many Tam breeders aren't looking at structure in their puppies. I hope that some of this discussion at least sparks an interest or curiosity so that others may educate themselves enough to be able to "see" what is correct and what is not in a dog's structure. Either way, structure should be important in a SL or WL.

It can be and is a rather dry subject and books on the topic often read like stereo instructions. But when you start to see the bigger picture and why our dogs move like they do it is directly attributed to how that dog is put together. That flowing movement that is so graceful, that forward reach that goes out to the dogs nose, that rear drive that propels the dog forward is all because the dog is balanced and has proper angles in the front and rear. I love watching the Tamaskan move--it reminds me of watching coyotes and wolves in Yellowstone move. And show judges comment on it too--which is really neat for a new breed to receive such kudos!

We have pretty good structure now in the Tam and it would be great to keep it ;) Bottom line for companion animals is the dogs joints will hold up longer in life--I'm sure no one would disagree with that as a bonus of proper structure :D
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:59 pm

As I said Id like to see a breeding test done that tested both working ability and structure. We are unable to do Shzutzhund is not allowed in all states of Australia so our breeding animals go through breed survey. Which is jus general stuff like the sound of a gun, a crowd of people milling around, bikes etc that the dog must be around and not panic. Then a judge goes over the dog. Check height and s on. The breed actually had a crack down on height a while back and so larger dogs did less well in show. Goes to show that a show has some uses. Breed officials made it known and it trickled down to the judges and then on to breeders who made a massive effort and now most dogs are average in height. Shows aren't all about glitz and glamour.

I really enjoyed reading a book on the genetic history of the GSD. While I had been learning from those who had been in the breed 30-50 years the book really broke it down. Why lines and styles came and went. Id recommend the book highly to anyone interested. It even goes into individual countries. I was able to see my bitches ancestors and where traits had come from. Where diseases were first seen and so on. Its an incredible record.

Table top GSDs are the ones that are super wide across the back, big chested so their legs are like table legs and the back is straight and flat. They are VERY big boned. You could literally sit a coffee cup and the backs on some. These dogs have skeletal problems given the breed was never designed to carry suck weight and strain. HD is common.

Actually I have seen GSDs from Czech lines and so on that had skin allergies.

That's the thing about breeders who breed only for work dogs. Working dogs retire at a certain age 6-7 is acceptable for a dog to start having issues to some. They don't track those later in life illnesses as closely. Its all about the money and how hard and tough the dog is when a good age.

Just like the sports people here that breed dogs that are not capable of down time or being a pet. Theyusually have great structure but the temperament is more Mal.

Then of course there are idiot that breed purely for looks.

My bitch was from Falkewind which has now retired but she was not extreme, did well in show and I had pups go to the police. It was a small kennel but the bitches easily made 14 if not longer. Last I heard they still had two 16 year old bitches running around as pets. In Australia its not uncommon to see GSDs at specialty shows running in 35-40 degrees Celsius. The Open dog/bitch is still happily trotting round the ring while the poor handler is stumbling behind :lol: Those dogs go! Let me see if I can add a picture or two of my bitch (she had passed on now and I no longer breed).
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:03 pm

stacked differently.
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ligerwolve » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:22 pm

My taste well... :lol: I cant pass by a beautiful expressive head. Im not a fan of the foxy looking GSDs that seem to be the in thing at the moment. I don't mind dogs like my bitch and her sire Unox Von Aduct or working dogs like cendraise or kovacs kennels have. I don't want to give away where Im getting my next puppy but its using dogs along those lines carefully bred over time. There were also some nice dogs being produced over in SA and they had some stunning black sables.

Obviously I don't think you can pass up some of the German dogs that obviously are working/show. Gorgeous.

Anyhoo :lol: I think I have taken the thread OT enough :D

My point being that Id like to see the Tamaskan stay away from the extremes that other breeds suffer with SL/WL and sport.

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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by Tana » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:49 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I would just back up and say that I have a general concern that many Tam breeders aren't looking at structure in their puppies. I hope that some of this discussion at least sparks an interest or curiosity so that others may educate themselves enough to be able to "see" what is correct and what is not in a dog's structure. Either way, structure should be important in a SL or WL.

It can be and is a rather dry subject and books on the topic often read like stereo instructions. But when you start to see the bigger picture and why our dogs move like they do it is directly attributed to how that dog is put together. That flowing movement that is so graceful, that forward reach that goes out to the dogs nose, that rear drive that propels the dog forward is all because the dog is balanced and has proper angles in the front and rear. I love watching the Tamaskan move--it reminds me of watching coyotes and wolves in Yellowstone move. And show judges comment on it too--which is really neat for a new breed to receive such kudos!

We have pretty good structure now in the Tam and it would be great to keep it ;) Bottom line for companion animals is the dogs joints will hold up longer in life--I'm sure no one would disagree with that as a bonus of proper structure :D
Definitely! I agree.

ligerwolve wrote:I really enjoyed reading a book on the genetic history of the GSD. While I had been learning from those who had been in the breed 30-50 years the book really broke it down. Why lines and styles came and went. Id recommend the book highly to anyone interested. It even goes into individual countries. I was able to see my bitches ancestors and where traits had come from. Where diseases were first seen and so on. Its an incredible record.
I would love to read that book. Who is the author, title?
ligerwolve wrote:Table top GSDs are the ones that are super wide across the back, big chested so their legs are like table legs and the back is straight and flat. They are VERY big boned. You could literally sit a coffee cup and the backs on some. These dogs have skeletal problems given the breed was never designed to carry suck weight and strain. HD is common.
I think I know (knew, he passed away) a dog, who could be consider as table top. Very big boned, excellent character but poor health :( I attached pics.
ligerwolve wrote:Actually I have seen GSDs from Czech lines and so on that had skin allergies.
There are quite a lot of puppy milles/dog farms with 50+ dogs. Breeding only for work. Probably they came from there.

ligerwolve wrote:Last I heard they still had two 16 year old bitches running around as pets.
I agree, it's important to see senior dogs, when you choosing a breeder. Their health, condition.
ligerwolve wrote:Im not a fan of the foxy looking GSDs
Ohh I like foxy or better saying wolfy looking GSDs :P As much wolfy as they can be, even with light eyes, which I know is not up to the standard lol
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Re: Siberian Husky, Fit For Function or Not?

Post by ASaroka » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:01 am

I have often turned to books--I love a good read. I have the speech loaded to listen to on my way home from work :D

Looking at the beautiful b/w pic of that GSD reminded me of Ianto's body type:

3 months after he turned 3 years:
379316_10200747191466433_1560701794_n.jpg
At a little over 3 years and 8 months when I realized he had had a growth spurt. (I used to see the table he standing in front of)
10363111_10204127946303191_7364462019984386415_n.jpg
He's so stocky :|
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