Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:01 am

Rahne wrote:The thing that 'worries' me about the North American Indian dog (and similar HC Wolfdog bloodlines) is... how inbred are they?
Yes, a valid concern! I think there is quite a bit of linebreeding done in most of the wolfdog lines. I know there are still outcrosses being added to the NorthAIDs, so there is some fresh blood in there.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by caninesrock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:59 am

I can see why as first hand experience. Our lab x Australian shepherd mix is all blue merle with white tipped paws, a white tipped tail, and a white chest blaze. We just had him in to see the canine ophthalmologist yesterday and he has a fully detached and atrophied retina, and cataracts in both eyes. He's only 4 years old and probably had this problem since birth.
I'm so sorry about your dog. :( Are you sure it's because of the merle though? I thought it was only merle x merle breeding that caused health problems?
I got "wow" at this, because - I have only heard of this breed twice before. Someone on the internet saying he bought a puppy of this breed, and some pictures on Flickr of someone in Utah with one (very good-looking dog: ... 628454533/), but never any info anywhere else.

It is clearly a different breed, not an American Indian Dog (AID, which looks a bit like a Kelpie-cross) or a Native American Indian Dog. But if I google "North American Indian Dog" (with the quotation marks), I find basically nothing. No organization, no breeders, no info pages, nothing.

It must be a wolfdog breed (I mean, with higher wolf content than for example the Tamaskan) and seems so bloody rare so it's not a breed I'm interested in personally, but I have a thirst for knowledge so I'd like to know more if anyone can help me.
At first, I thought you meant a American Indian Dog or a Native American Indian Dog. Those both have sites, though the NAIDs are suspected of being low-content wolfdogs that the breeder started breeding and disguising with a new breed name after wolfdogs were banned for ownership in Michingan as she used to breed wolfdogs that she acutally called wolfdogs back when it was legal to do so there. I've never heard of a North American Indian Dog though. As for that Flickr photo, that just looks like a high content wolfdog.

Yes, the North American Indian dogs are most certainly a wolfdog breed. They are very selectively bred high content wolfdogs. This is the website of the breed founder - http://www.wcatcr.com/ (it's very out of date). He seems to have been quite successful in breeding high content, very wolfy looking dogs that have more of a "domestic" temperament than your average high content. Able to be housetrained and live indoors, travel in cars well, can be socialized to be around cats etc, can be offleash trained, etc. I think there is still quite a high instance of shyness in the NorthAIDs, but that will likely improve with time. I'm watching this breed type closely. As more time and more generations pass, they may be something I'd be interested in for the future.
Thanks for the site and the info. I'd never heard of them before. I thought all high contents had to live outside and have high prey drive,etc. Has it been proven that they can be kept indoors and with cats? They just look like normal high content wolfdogs to me. I tend to be skepitcal of these kinds of things though and automatically think scam when I hear things like HC that can be kept like common dogs as a lot of scammers claim that.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:50 pm

caninesrock wrote: Thanks for the site and the info. I'd never heard of them before. I thought all high contents had to live outside and have high prey drive,etc. Has it been proven that they can be kept indoors and with cats? They just look like normal high content wolfdogs to me. I tend to be skepitcal of these kinds of things though and automatically think scam when I hear things like HC that can be kept like common dogs as a lot of scammers claim that.
Yes, it has been proven. I've talked to a number of owners (there is a facebook group for the breed/owners) and there are plenty of them who live indoors. One even stays alone loose in the house all day with a cat while the owner works! And through all the selective breeding interesting traits have started occurring, like a female that cycles twice a year (!) and a male that is fertile through the whole year - dog traits popping up in what look like high content wolfdogs.

Of course all the kinks aren't worked out yet, so while there is a lot more constancy than in most HC lines, there is still a variety of temperaments produced, so not every one would for instance be able to be left uncrated, indoors with a cat all day...And like I said, I think shyness is still an issue in lots of the pups.

It's definitely not a scam! Some serious work and dedication has been put into this breeding program.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Gaby » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:07 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
torriarno wrote:It is reckond in some breeds that merle breeding may eventually be banned because of the health issues this country is now disallowing merle to merle...
I can see why as first hand experience. Our lab x Australian shepherd mix is all blue merle with white tipped paws, a white tipped tail, and a white chest blaze. We just had him in to see the canine ophthalmologist yesterday and he has a fully detached and atrophied retina, and cataracts in both eyes. He's only 4 years old and probably had this problem since birth. :(
Health problems with merle breeding are occuring when breeding merle x merle. Not in a single merle dog. It is terrible news of course for your dog and for you and your family, but I don't think it is because his merle colouring. He was the only merle one in the litter wasn't he? And labs don't carry merle, so he can't be double merle. Good luck with Fenris though, I hope he can cope with it, I love that dog! :D

I have a merle x merle dog (Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog) and I am very happy that they are now disallowing merle x merle. It can cause a lot of health problems that can be easily prevented by choosing a merle and a non merle dog as a breeding pair. Off topic, but you can even test your dog nowadays for carrying the merle gene. That comes in very handy with the Catahoula, because it can even carry the gene "ghost-merle", that is carrying the merle gene without showing it. But I believe that the Catahoula is the only breed with that gene found untill now, so no worries with other breeds. ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by caninesrock » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:56 am

@Gaby: I love the blue merle Catahoula Leopard Dogs. They're so pretty and unique looking.
Kootenaywolf wrote: Yes, it has been proven. I've talked to a number of owners (there is a facebook group for the breed/owners) and there are plenty of them who live indoors. One even stays alone loose in the house all day with a cat while the owner works! And through all the selective breeding interesting traits have started occurring, like a female that cycles twice a year (!) and a male that is fertile through the whole year - dog traits popping up in what look like high content wolfdogs.

Of course all the kinks aren't worked out yet, so while there is a lot more constancy than in most HC lines, there is still a variety of temperaments produced, so not every one would for instance be able to be left uncrated, indoors with a cat all day...And like I said, I think shyness is still an issue in lots of the pups.

It's definitely not a scam! Some serious work and dedication has been put into this breeding program.
Oh interesting. I didn't even know it was scientifically possible to get a HC wolfdog that behaves like a normal dog. Maybe I'll look into getting this breed in the future.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:40 pm

caninesrock wrote:
Oh interesting. I didn't even know it was scientifically possible to get a HC wolfdog that behaves like a normal dog. Maybe I'll look into getting this breed in the future.
Well, I don't know that they entirely behave like a normal dog...much more domestic than most HCs but there will still show some wolfy behaviors. Still, as the generations go by they should get more and more domestic and hopefully retain their wolfy look!

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:00 pm

caninesrock wrote: Oh interesting. I didn't even know it was scientifically possible to get a HC wolfdog that behaves like a normal dog. Maybe I'll look into getting this breed in the future.
Actually according to what wolfdog owner Christa on facebook told me months ago when I asked her about the possibility of a high-content having a more dog-like temperament, some of what may look like high-contents are actually F4 or F5 wolfdogs that were carefully bred mostly between upper mid-contents. However, after generations without adding any pure wolves into the genepool, the younger wolfdogs are no longer considered true wolfdogs no matter how wolf-like one may look to some people. The most recent pure wolf MUST be within five generations of any alleged wolfdog's pedigree in order for them to be considered a true wolfdog.

Also, I suggest reading the Breeder's Review by Maineiac. We spoke privately once and she had told me how much she strongly discourages getting a NAID from Majestic View: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=2525&p=66369#p66369
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by caninesrock » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:34 pm

Well, I don't know that they entirely behave like a normal dog...much more domestic than most HCs but there will still show some wolfy behaviors. Still, as the generations go by they should get more and more domestic and hopefully retain their wolfy look!
Well,by normal dog, I just meant that you don't have to do things like keep them in special outdoor enclosures all the time like most HCs or feed them a special diet of raw meat to keep them healthy. Or do you still have to do all those things like with a normal HC?
Also, I plan on asking you most of the same quesiton about them that I asked about ANCDs/Yarrow in the other thread,but I'll give you a chance to answer those first. I know you don't own one of these dogs yet,but you seem really knowlegdable about them.
Actually according to what wolfdog owner Christa on facebook told me months ago when I asked her about the possibility of a high-content having a more dog-like temperament, some of what may look like high-contents are actually F4 or F5 wolfdogs that were carefully bred mostly between upper mid-contents. However, after generations without adding any pure wolves into the genepool, the younger wolfdogs are no longer considered true wolfdogs no matter how wolf-like one may look to some people. The most recent pure wolf MUST be within five generations of any alleged wolfdog's pedigree in order for them to be considered a true wolfdog.
So does that mean someone could legally have a dog that was an F6 or higher that was the result of only High Contents being bred together and no more pure wolf being bred in, without any kind of permit and even in places where true wofdogs aren't legal? How would you prove the dog was 6 generations away from having pure wolf in it if it looks like a HC still,so you can keep it and don't get in trouble with the law and/or have your dog taken away? wouldn't it still need to be treated like a high content though and have a special enclosure and diet?

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:47 am

caninesrock wrote:
Actually according to what wolfdog owner Christa on facebook told me months ago when I asked her about the possibility of a high-content having a more dog-like temperament, some of what may look like high-contents are actually F4 or F5 wolfdogs that were carefully bred mostly between upper mid-contents. However, after generations without adding any pure wolves into the genepool, the younger wolfdogs are no longer considered true wolfdogs no matter how wolf-like one may look to some people. The most recent pure wolf MUST be within five generations of any alleged wolfdog's pedigree in order for them to be considered a true wolfdog.
So does that mean someone could legally have a dog that was an F6 or higher that was the result of only High Contents being bred together and no more pure wolf being bred in, without any kind of permit and even in places where true wofdogs aren't legal? How would you prove the dog was 6 generations away from having pure wolf in it if it looks like a HC still,so you can keep it and don't get in trouble with the law and/or have your dog taken away? wouldn't it still need to be treated like a high content though and have a special enclosure and diet?
Yes, it also means that if you breed two F2 high-contents, and then breed their F3 born with another F3 high-content and going down the line without adding a single pure wolf into the younger genepool, the F6 is considered a domestic dog. According to what I was told by another wolfdog owner, the F6s from such breedings however, may or may not look or act as wolf-like as the previous generations especially if you selectively bred tameness down those lines and some might actually start to look more like dogs. Some might even start to just look like Czech dogs. I can't say much about the diet as I wouldn't know but I personally doubt they would behave as wolf-like after generations. Even a line of pure wolves would start to transform into a more docile animal after the fifth generation IF you selectively breed tameness down their lines. I can relate that theory to the Russian domesticated foxes

On a side note, there ARE certain subspecies of Grey wolves in the Far east who behave more like upper-mid content wolfdogs to domestic dogs than like the northern wolves. Particularly the Tibetan wolves (Canis lupus chanco) and the Indian wolves (Canis lupus pallipes)
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:25 pm

The legislation is a bit strange that way.
If it's really like that, in theory, I could own a 95% wolfdog, if the last pure wolf was more than five generations away.
But I could not own a 6.25% wolfdog, that only had one wolf crossed in four generations ago. :roll:

BTW: About the wolfy-looking wolfdogs that behave like dogs...
Actually according to what wolfdog owner Christa on facebook told me months ago when I asked her about the possibility of a high-content having a more dog-like temperament, some of what may look like high-contents are actually F4 or F5 wolfdogs that were carefully bred mostly between upper mid-contents.
That makes me think of this Czech Wolfdog: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_m1cD5Tly1tI/S ... moni12.jpg
As far as I know, there has been no more wolf added in there, they have simply bred for wolfier look, in the already established CsV breed, so it is going to behave like any CsV.
Am I right?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by caninesrock » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:16 pm

Yes, it also means that if you breed two F2 high-contents, and then breed their F3 born with another F3 high-content and going down the line without adding a single pure wolf into the younger genepool, the F6 is considered a domestic dog.
What if you breed their F3 offspring with another F2 high content?

According to what I was told by another wolfdog owner, the F6s from such breedings however, may or may not look or act as wolf-like as the previous generations especially if you selectively bred tameness down those lines and some might actually start to look more like dogs. Some might even start to just look like Czech dogs.
But Czech dogs were bred from Eurasian wolf subpsecies and HC are usually bred from the North American subspecies. Also, Czech Vlack have German Shepherd in them,but HC usually have only a tiny bit of husky or malamute in them,so I would think they'd still look more wolfy than Czech Vlack even if they started to look more doglike.
I can't say much about the diet as I wouldn't know but I personally doubt they would behave as wolf-like after generations. Even a line of pure wolves would start to transform into a more docile animal after the fifth generation IF you selectively breed tameness down their lines. I can relate that theory to the Russian domesticated foxes
The Russian foxes took 50 years to become domestic. After only 5 generations of pure wolves, the wolves will still need special enclosures and diet.
On a side note, there ARE certain subspecies of Grey wolves in the Far east who behave more like upper-mid content wolfdogs to domestic dogs than like the northern wolves. Particularly the Tibetan wolves (Canis lupus chanco) and the Indian wolves (Canis lupus pallipes)
I heard that the Middle Eastern wolf subspecies are actually more dog-like than wolf-like. They bark alot and don't howl like Northern wolves. They're also smaller in size and more dog-like in anatomy.
That makes me think of this Czech Wolfdog: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_m1cD5Tly1tI/S ... moni12.jpg
As far as I know, there has been no more wolf added in there, they have simply bred for wolfier look, in the already established CsV breed, so it is going to behave like any CsV.
Am I right?
In another topic, someone said that that dog is suspected to have Timber Wolf added in. It's registered as a pure Czech Wolfdog/Vlack,but some people think the pedigree is falsified.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:36 pm

Yeah it's highly likely that Demoniak has more wolf added, along with some of the other dogs from that kennel.

Also, as for the F6 being a "dog"...maybe legally, but there are plenty of selectively bred F6 and beyond that still act and look very wolf like. A lot of Mace's animals - http://www.thewolfcrossing.org/ are probably beyond F6, same with Mark Klemperer's North American Indian Dogs, and likely lots of other selectively bred wolfdogs around.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:06 am

If you breed an F3 with an F2 then the offspring is also an F3.
To clarify, I meant to say that if you select for "friendliness" you will more likely lose the wolf-like look in the future generations. As far as I'm aware, although it is usually the northerns spitz who are bred with wolves, I have heard of cases where some mid-contents despite looking very wolf-like yet kept many dog-like personalities were the result of breeding the wolves with labradors, bulldogs, dalmatians, and other non-spitz type breeds. I don't know if that is true however. As far as I'm aware, the most common subspecies that are bred with dogs are the Rocky mountain wolves, Mackenzie valley, Great Plains, Hudson bay, Alaskan, Yukon, Arctic, and the Eurasians. The Labrador Huskies are actually believed by many Atlantic region Canadians to be the result of crossbreeding relic breeds of dogs with the extinct Newfoundland wolves. On a side note, coincidentally four of those subspecies have also been bred with captive coyotes in the past (illegally in some cases).

Yes the Russian foxes did take 5 decades, but I'm just saying that by the 5th generations they started to change and by the 10th they were a lot more dog-like but not quite domestic yet. I am confident that wolves went through a similar process to become the domestic dogs we have today. I also agree that MOST dogs are not exactly descended from the northern Grey wolves but from these Asian and the Middle Eastern subspecies.

As you can see from the photos below these wolves from China (Canis lupus laniger) are very different from the northern Eurasian wolves in which they are a lot more docile and I remember from a Chinese website I read off long ago it said that the southeast-Asian subspecies are also known to accept outside wanderers (this is usually true with lost pups than with adults) into their packs as oppose to the northern grey wolves that we're more familliar with who would rather kill off the intruding wolf/dog and sometimes may cannibal on them.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by caninesrock » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:49 am

If you breed an F3 with an F2 then the offspring is also an F3.
But I thought the F stood for how many generations it was since a last pure wolf was added. If you breed a wolfdog to another wolfdog, you've not added another pure wolf in.
To clarify, I meant to say that if you select for "friendliness" you will more likely lose the wolf-like look in the future generations.
That's true,but I think it would take many generations. Like Kootenaywolf showed, most HC wolfdogs like the ones at Wolf Crossing have been bred to each other for many generations and have not lost their wolf-like appearance. I believe someone would have to be specifically breeding for tameness and culling out the ones that weren't tame enough like they did in the fox experiment for there to be any siginifacant changes in a short span of time.
As far as I'm aware, although it is usually the northerns spitz who are bred with wolves, I have heard of cases where some mid-contents despite looking very wolf-like yet kept many dog-like personalities were the result of breeding the wolves with labradors, bulldogs, dalmatians, and other non-spitz type breeds. I don't know if that is true however.
Interesting. I've never heard that before. But the Spitz breeds are more primitive and have more wolf-like behaviors than non-spitz even when not hybridized with wolves, so it makes sense that non-spitz breed and wolf hybrid crosses would have less wolf behaviors than spitz-wolf crosses.
As far as I'm aware, the most common subspecies that are bred with dogs are the Rocky mountain wolves, Mackenzie valley, Great Plains, Hudson bay, Alaskan, Yukon, Arctic, and the Eurasians.
Interesting. I read that the north american subspecies of wolves were reclassified into only five though:1. Great Plains Wolf, 2. Eastern Timber Wolf, 3. Mackenzie Valley Wolf/Northwestern Wolf,4. Mexican Gray Wolf, and 5. Arctic Wolf.

Both the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf and the Hudson Bay Wolf have been reclassified to be the same subspecies as the Great Plains Wolf. The Alaskan Wolf and Yukon Wolf have both been reclassified as Mckenzie Valley Wolves.

So,really the only subspecies that are bred with wolves then are Mackenzie Valley Wolves,Great Plains Wolves, Arctic Wolves, and Eurasian Wolves.

Source:http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/gray_wolf_tax.html
The Labrador Huskies are actually believed by many Atlantic region Canadians to be the result of crossbreeding relic breeds of dogs with the extinct Newfoundland wolves.
some people say that about siberian Huskies and Malamutes as well due to their somewhat wolf-like behavior,but so far it hasn't been proven. These behaviors are likely due partially to the surival of the fittest life-style they were bred for and partly to the fact that they are one of the more primitive breeds of dog which are more closely related to wolves than other breeds. Interestingly, I've also heard claims of the Shikoku Dog in Japan supposedly having some extinct Hokkaido Wolf (or maybe it was Honshu Wolf. I can never remember which) in its DNA,but as far as I know, these too are just rumors that nobody's been able to prove.
On a side note, coincidentally four of those subspecies have also been bred with captive coyotes in the past (illegally in some cases).
Which subspecies were they?


Yes the Russian foxes did take 5 decades, but I'm just saying that by the 5th generations they started to change and by the 10th they were a lot more dog-like but not quite domestic yet. I am confident that wolves went through a similar process to become the domestic dogs we have today.
The foxes only started changing so fast because they were part of a highly regulated and controlled experiment. Someone just breeding animals and not culling the ones who aren't tame(like was done to some of the non-tame foxes in the experiment) and having the animals not as part of a highly controlled experiment, wouldn't get results as fast. Yes, wolves did develop the same way as these foxes,but because it happened naturally rather than in an experimental setting.It took thousands of years for wolves to become dogs versus only 50 years to the foxes.However, even in the domestic fox, curly tails and floppy ears only pop up rarely. Most domestic foxes look the same as wild foxes except for displaying some un-natural colors.

I also agree that MOST dogs are not exactly descended from the northern Grey wolves but from these Asian and the Middle Eastern subspecies.
What breeds do you think are not descended from them? The Northern breeds such as huskies and malamutes?
As you can see from the photos below these wolves from China (Canis lupus laniger) are very different from the northern Eurasian wolves in which they are a lot more docile and I remember from a Chinese website I read off long ago it said that the southeast-Asian subspecies are also known to accept outside wanderers (this is usually true with lost pups than with adults) into their packs as oppose to the northern grey wolves that we're more familliar with who would rather kill off the intruding wolf/dog and sometimes may cannibal on them.
Are the wolves in that picture wild or captive bred?

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:09 am

Actually there are around 40 subspecies if you count the dingoes and the domestic dogs. Although only 39 have been recognized as of 2011 since the domestic dog is not considered by some to be part of the list. I'll have to break down the responses of your questions to answer in separate posts.
caninesrock wrote:
On a side note, coincidentally four of those subspecies have also been bred with captive coyotes in the past (illegally in some cases).
Which subspecies were they?
I believe I've already PMed you on those before. Excluding the Red and Eastern wolves since they are already coywolves themselves, the four North American subspecies that have hybridized with coyotes in captivity are the northern Rocky Mountain wolves (Canis lupus irremotus), Mackenzie Valley wolves (Canis lupus occidentalis), the Great Plains wolves (Canis lupus nubilus), and the Mexican wolves (Canis lupus baileyi). The latter two have also hybridized with coyotes naturally in the wild while the former including that particular one that I mentioned to you in private (because the owner wants to keep a low profile) have only hybridized in captivity since the larger subspecies in the western regions are very less likely to breed with coyotes or with dogs (except in captivity of course since they are limited to whatever opposite gender is available for them in these cases). A fifth one, the Eurasian wolves (Canis lupus lupus) were crossed with coyotes in Germany back when they were experimenting to determine where in the dog family did the dingoes, golden jackals, and coyotes belonged.
caninesrock wrote:
I also agree that MOST dogs are not exactly descended from the northern Grey wolves but from these Asian and the Middle Eastern subspecies.
What breeds do you think are not descended from them? The Northern breeds such as huskies and malamutes?
While it's hard to tell exactly for sure which dog breed is descended from which grey wolf subspecies (except for the Czech, Saarloos, GSD, Lupo Italian, Kunming, Marxdorfer since we all know about the European wolves that were used in those breeds), a lot of theories points to the middle eastern subspecies such as the Indian wolf based on the fact that these subspecies are slightly more docile than the northern ones. The Malamute is rumoured by some to have a small touch of Alaskan tundra wolves in them (Canis lupus tundrarum) but since this is just rumour I don't know if it's true but I don't rule out the possibility either. But the reason why I personally believe that most of the early domestic dogs came from those Asian subspecies is because I remember reading some articles that suggested that there might have been a group of wolves that were more docile and followed people though from a good distant and that such wolves would later on domesticate themselves as they continue to follow the humans and rely on the leftovers from their hunts, eventually integrating with human society after generations and then the selective breedings followed from there on. To me, the Far Eastern subspecies fit the definitions of these wolves. I've actually seen a pair of these Asian subspecies in Vietnam back in 2005 and they did seem more dog-like to me compared to the 9 captive coywolves that I'm familliar with here in Ontario including that one. Too bad I could not go near the enclosure of that pair though due to safety reasons.

Here's an article discussing the theory of the origin of the domestic dogs.

http://www.k9dna.org/learn-about-dog-ge ... ray-wolves

On a side note I find it ironic that we humans domesticated the wolves thousands of years ago and now suddenly we're trying to figure out HOW it happened becasue no one back then recorded the procedures of how they did it. Or maybe they did but no such document survived. Well, whatever the truth is, it's still quite a mystery even though DNA analysis has given the clues and that we all know that all the domestic dogs are the same species as the Grey wolves (except for those more recent breeds like the AID and the Sulimov dogs who are coydogs and jackal-dog hybrids).
caninesrock wrote:
As you can see from the photos below these wolves from China (Canis lupus laniger) are very different from the northern Eurasian wolves in which they are a lot more docile and I remember from a Chinese website I read off long ago it said that the southeast-Asian subspecies are also known to accept outside wanderers (this is usually true with lost pups than with adults) into their packs as oppose to the northern grey wolves that we're more familliar with who would rather kill off the intruding wolf/dog and sometimes may cannibal on them.
Are the wolves in that picture wild or captive bred?
They are captive, but I was just using that picture to show you what subspecies of grey wolf I was referring to. Also trying to give you a good idea of what they look like :D
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:19 am

caninesrock wrote:
As far as I'm aware, the most common subspecies that are bred with dogs are the Rocky mountain wolves, Mackenzie valley, Great Plains, Hudson bay, Alaskan, Yukon, Arctic, and the Eurasians.
Interesting. I read that the north american subspecies of wolves were reclassified into only five though:1. Great Plains Wolf, 2. Eastern Timber Wolf, 3. Mackenzie Valley Wolf/Northwestern Wolf,4. Mexican Gray Wolf, and 5. Arctic Wolf.

Both the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf and the Hudson Bay Wolf have been reclassified to be the same subspecies as the Great Plains Wolf. The Alaskan Wolf and Yukon Wolf have both been reclassified as Mackenzie Valley Wolves.

So,really the only subspecies that are bred with wolves then are Mackenzie Valley Wolves,Great Plains Wolves, Arctic Wolves, and Eurasian Wolves.

Source:http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/gray_wolf_tax.html
I know, but I personally lean against merging certain subspecies together because they lead to complications when trying to describe a particular group from a certain region. Especially when some wolves share similar coat colours and yet come from different locations. Also, many different subspecies have slightly different behaviours as well as different diets. I have already explains the temperament of the Far-Eastern subspecies as being more dog-like. Might have been due to the similar reasons as how the coyotes and golden jackals have adjusted into thriving near human habitats and we all know how big of a human population China has in particular.

The Arctic wolves (Canis lupus arctos) for example are often confused with the Greenland wolves (Canis lupus orion) and the Vancouver Island wolves (Canis lupus crassodon) due to them sharing similar (if not the same) winter-coloured coats. However, the Vancouver subspecies are actually medium-sized (some are as small as the GSD) and smaller than the former two. There is still an ongoing debate as to whether or not the Greenland subspecies should be kept distinct from the Arctic wolves.

I do think that the Yukon wolves (Canis lupus pambasileus) might actually be the same subspecies as the Alaskan Tundra wolves (Canis lupus tundrarum) however, the Yukon subspecies have been found to weight on average between 150 to 170 pounds (68 to 77 kg) while the Alaskan ones are larger and mostly sitting around 80 kg. So I still sit on the line for these two.

Labrador wolves (Canis lupus labradorius), the extinct Newfoundland wolves (Canis lupus beothucus)and the Hudson Bay wolves (Canis lupus hudsonicus) have also been merged with the Great Plains wolves (Canis lupus nubilus) which I don't agree with this for three main reasons. 1) Since the Newfoundland wolves are no longer alive, we cannot just merge them with an existing subspecies when we don't know exactly what their temperaments were like or how they survived vs the subspecies that we do know about. 2) The Great Plains wolves are known to get along with and/or breed with coyotes in the wild without human interference (captive selections) while the Hudson Bay subspecies aren't known to hybridize with any pure coyotes. They might, however, have served as backcrosses for the Eastern coywolves in the past but I don't know for sure as that's still a mere speculation. 3) The Hudson Bay wolves share a mix of the lupine grey as well as the the white coat of the Arctic and the Vancouver wolves and are not known to carry the black-phase while the Great Plains wolves, while some do have the white colour coats, are mostly lupine-grey and some also get the black-phase which is not present in the Hudson bay wolves. Labrador wolves on the other hand are also known to have red-coats as well as some affected by the black phase but I've never seen a Hudson Bay wolf with those colours.
caninesrock wrote:
The Labrador Huskies are actually believed by many Atlantic region Canadians to be the result of crossbreeding relic breeds of dogs with the extinct Newfoundland wolves.
some people say that about siberian Huskies and Malamutes as well due to their somewhat wolf-like behavior,but so far it hasn't been proven. These behaviors are likely due partially to the surival of the fittest life-style they were bred for and partly to the fact that they are one of the more primitive breeds of dog which are more closely related to wolves than other breeds. Interestingly, I've also heard claims of the Shikoku Dog in Japan supposedly having some extinct Hokkaido Wolf (or maybe it was Honshu Wolf. I can never remember which) in its DNA,but as far as I know, these too are just rumors that nobody's been able to prove.
It IS hard to tell as the Japanese wolves have died out decades ago but although these theories have yet to be proven, you never know... ;) I agree however that the northern spitz dogs are definitely more primitive than the labs and other non-spitz with the exception of the pariah breeds. While they're not exactly like wolves (obviously), some like the Siberian Huskies still share many wolf-like behaviours such as howling and I've also experience a hit (an open-mouth smack on the wrist or ankle) by my relative's Alusky before which I've never seen a non-spitz dog do that. Basically a hit differs from a bite in which the dog or wolf does not close its mouth, they leave it wide open telling you that they're annoyed at whatever you were doing and want you to understand. I've also heard from a former neighbour whose Siberian Laika also did that a lot but has never actually legitimately bitten her. Basically this might actually tie in with bite-inhibitions, but it's one of the traits that is exclusive to northern wolf-like spitz dogs. If you have in a situation where you somehow irritated your dog and it smacked you without drawing out any blood, that was a hit.
caninesrock wrote:
If you breed an F3 with an F2 then the offspring is also an F3.
But I thought the F stood for how many generations it was since a last pure wolf was added. If you breed a wolfdog to another wolfdog, you've not added another pure wolf in.
The F3 is based on the F2 parent since the pure wolf is closer in the F2's line than in the F3 parent's line. So basically, if you breed an F2 to an F4, the offsprings are still going to be F3 since the F generations are read from the line that is the closest to the pure wolf. If you breed an F4 with another F4 OR with a domestic dog, the offsprings automatically count as F5. We go up by the lowest number when crossing between wolfdogs. But when you cross an F3 from the mating between the F2 x F4 mating, with another F3 or with a pure dog, you get another F4 litter. F5 x F5 lead to F6 which in most places (such as my province Ontario) count as pure domestic dogs. Like I said, it's really confusing. :lol:
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:54 am

I am wondering about the American Wolfdog, because this breed (?) really confuses me.

On the one hand, there are these, that look like little more than crosses with everything from GSD to huskies to Swedish vallhund (one of them kind of resembles that breed ;)) and even Lapphund:
http://rocktassar.se/wp-content/uploads ... 183316.jpg
http://cdn06.dayviews.com/85/_u3/_u1/_u ... 553005.jpg
http://www.mywolfdog.com/img/trine1_big.jpg
http://www.mywolfdog.com/img/laika1_big.jpg
http://www.mywolfdog.com/img/shasha3_big.jpg

And on the other hand, there are those gorgeous dogs that Vroni photographed, and that look more like mid content wolfdogs.
http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/download/file.php?id=6150

I see no homogeneity at all, and can find no organisation whatsoever. I've only found one breeder here in Sweden, and one in the Netherlands. Absolutely nothing in America, which seems ironic. :roll:
Is "American Wolfdog" not a breed, but rather a term to refer to a type of dog, like Alaskan Husky or Anglo Wulfdog?
Help. :P
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:22 pm

It is more the type of dog because all that are in Europe come from america. Breeders in america are many. Some are Scott, Mace, Mark, Vicky was once but does now BBS etc.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:12 pm

American Wolfdog is not a breed, but the wolfdogs crossed with american wolves instead of European wolves, which means that they if well bred (meaning bred to look like wolves) will look quite different, just like American wolves and European wolves looks different from each other..
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:07 am

I can't think of anywhere else to put this, and I apologize if it's the wrong place, but...

I'm writing an article on wolfdog- and wolf-lookalike breeds, on a swedish animal site. I will be as neutral and true-to-the-facts as possible, will provide sources and credit every photographer.

The thing is since many of these breeds are so rare, it is almost impossible to find pictures of them that you can use, on sites such as Wikimedia Commons. I can find Saarloos, CsV, Tamaskan and a few others there, but for most other breeds mentioned here (those either crossed with wolf or bred to look like wolves), there are simply no pictures I can use, and stealing is of course out of the question.

So if anyone here is sitting on pictures of other rare wolfdog breeds and is willing to let me use them, I would be very very happy. ;)
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nino » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:44 am

listing which ones you need might make it easier for people to know if they can help.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:57 pm

Saarloos Wolfhond
Československý vlčák
Northern Inuit Dog
Utonagan
British Utonagan
Tamaskan
Aatu Tamaskan
British Inuit
British Wolfdog
British Timber Dog
Native American Indian Dog
American Alsatian
Alaskan Noble Companion Dog
North American Noble Dog
Anglo Wulfdog
Swedish Wolfdog/Svensk Varghund
American Wolfdog
Blue Bay Shepherd
American Tundra Shepherd
Spencer Wolfdog
Marxdorfer Wolfshunde
Lycanis Wolfdog


This was the list I had before, with three new additions now. You may not want to call all of them breeds, and I certainly don't need pictures of everyone (not sure I'll even include everyone as breeds), but as many as possible. :)
I have pictures of Saarloos, CsV, British Utonagan (the "original" Utonagan seems to be dead as a breed?), Tamaskan, NaAID (Na means Native here), American Alsatian, and... that's about it.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:03 pm

I have a Aatu so you may have a photo if you want

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:43 pm

weylyn wrote:I have a Aatu so you may have a photo if you want
Technically she is still a Tamaskan though, since she comes from TDR Tamaskan bloodlines ;)
Whereas an ANCD x (Aatu) Tamaskan would be considered an Aatu Tamaskan... at least that's how I see it in my mind...
Anyway, hopefully in due time the Tamaskan breed can be consolidated again now that things have changed (for the better). :)
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Contrary to what Debby said, in my opinion a Tamaskan (Aatu or TDR Registered) mix with an ANCD is still a just a mutt unless registered with the TDR though I still call it a Tamaskan-mix. I don't like calling the dogs Aatu Tamaskans anymore since they're still related to the TDR registered Tamaskans even if crossed with some other breeds. But TDR Tamaskans are still mutts at the moment anyways.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:16 pm

well it is indeed more like Lucas sees it. The Aatu Tamaskan is just that because it is registered by the TBA. a cross with an ANCD would be an Aatu cross ;)
But we are working on the future so maybe it is best just to call them tammies ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nino » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:23 am

IMHO you can really not call a cross with either Tamaskan nor ANCD a Tamaskan mix or ANCD mix, as both are not recognized breeds and that would probably just make it mixes all together..

but if that is the case how do we differentiate between Aatu and Tamaskan?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:38 am

I'm not sure i get the context (and i have a feeling my tired self has it horribly wrong) hear but hear goes...

To me, an unrecognized breed is just a cross breed but still a breed in it's own right with a breed registry. Even extinct breeds are still called 'breeds' (not sure how long they were established for or how wide spread and some were around for 100's of years) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:E ... dog_breeds .

But a breed with a base, people ensuring the health and welfare of both pups and dogs, a look that is often produced and a registry of where the breed is in the world, how many and locations of breeders has the right to be a breed outside kc (and the longer it stays there the better IMHO)...

This opinion is in comparison to people breeding a yorkie and a poodle and calling it a yorkiepoo and someone else doing the same and calling it the same but the dogs look nothing alike, most likely have not health tested at all... No one regulates all the x breeds with fancy names, makes sure they stay as healthy as possible, parents are not bred too much (and the funniest one i have come across is bullshih, can't help but add the T :oops: ).

My favorite from the above link is Hare Indian Dog because it looks kinda 'Foxy' and Tesem because i've often wondered if i was the starter base for Anubis...
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:22 am

Another thing I'm wondering, for my article, and which I can't find anywhere, is... how many wolves were used, in total, in creating the Saarloos and CsV, respectively?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Czertice » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:21 am

Nimwey wrote:Another thing I'm wondering, for my article, and which I can't find anywhere, is... how many wolves were used, in total, in creating the Saarloos and CsV, respectively?
Four wolves in Vlcaks, all european gray. And from what I gather, around thirty GSDs.

I'm not that well informed about Saarloos, but the sources are a bit hazier there. Saarloos imported some wolves from Siberia and called them all Fleur, so it's hard to tell how many were there;] You'll probably need to ask some of the Saarloos breeders for more info.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:16 pm

Leendert Saarloos used 3 wolves when he started the europenian wolfdog( witch got the name Saarloos by it recognition)
And indeed they all carried the name Fleur ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Czertice » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:59 pm

About Saarloos wolf ancestry by Wolfsirius breeder of CSW and Saarloos:
Later yet wolfs were crossbreeded, the last wolf 1963 ( maybe the sixth, entirely that is not cleared, because L. Saarloos called all his she-wolves "Fleur".) That Dutch association for Saarloos Wolfhonden ( NVSWH ) assume yet more wolf intersection. It was official the second, according to pedigrees there must be anotherone in the 50, the third incross, a she-wolf crossed with "Barnum v. d. Kilstroom". A daughter out of this litter is "Alma v. d. Kilstroom", mother of" Baron v. d. Kilstroom", that is the father of "Fakar v. d. Kilstroom" (s. Pedigree Garou Loup). The NVSWH had found 4 wolves, all feminine animals, because in L. Saarloos' opinion the wild animal always should be the feminine... it is also possible, that these further intersections and/or lines do not further pursued.)
A neighbour of L. Saarloos had owned a black male Timberwolf, so that there is the supposition that this wolf also came to the breeding insert. Actually the current Saarloos wolfdogs see much more similar to American Timberwolf than the European wolf, that originated both "Fleurs" from . Also the good social behavior speaks in favour for the Timberwolf. But the NVSWH sais no incross of a Timberwolf...
http://www.wolfsirius.com/saarloos.html

and a discussion here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1136
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:46 pm

Leendert Saarloos himself used 3. Later in time when he wasn't alive anymore and the breed carried the name Saarloos the whole group split up. One part became the NVSWH and one part to CK. Well I guess you know what happened with the breeding there ;)

Later on there where two Saarloos communities and the other was joined by Marijke Saarloos.
She didn't joined the other one because the way they handled her mother and her around the whole recognition of the breed.
I am in the community where she also is so if you want to know the whole story best is to contact her directly ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Czertice » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:31 pm

weylyn wrote:Leendert Saarloos himself used 3. Later in time when he wasn't alive anymore and the breed carried the name Saarloos the whole group split up. One part became the NVSWH and one part to CK. Well I guess you know what happened with the breeding there ;)

Later on there where two Saarloos communities and the other was joined by Marijke Saarloos.
She didn't joined the other one because the way they handled her mother and her around the whole recognition of the breed.
I am in the community where she also is so if you want to know the whole story best is to contact her directly ;)
No, I don't know what happened, but Marijke on her web writes that big split happened and that she is tired of explaining the whole story and defending herself over the many years. I'd be happy to read a reliable account of it, if you could point me to one that your community trusts.

So Marijke says that only three wolves ever contributed to Saarlooswolfhond breed? And those are European ones, as you have assured me elsewhere if I remember correctly?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:50 pm

Leendert Saarloos used 3. I bet you are familiar with Corrie? I don't say that in the whole breed Saarloos of today there are used 3 ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:46 pm

Thanks for the info. :)
What I'm still unsure about, is what type of wolf was used in the Saarloos?
Some sources state European wolf of some kind, and some other sorces say "Mackenzie Valley (Canadian?) Wolf".
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Tiantai » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:02 am

I doubt he used the Mackenzie Valley wolves. I PMed you on why.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by weylyn » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:28 am

Nimwey wrote:Thanks for the info. :)
What I'm still unsure about, is what type of wolf was used in the Saarloos?
Some sources state European wolf of some kind, and some other sorces say "Mackenzie Valley (Canadian?) Wolf".
There goes a lot of stories because ONLY L.Saarloos really knows. I personal find that that is where many people went wrong to just guessing and kept their own stories. Like some also believe that Fleur1 is used twice.....
Only of Fleur1 is in papers from L.Saarloos that it is an European wolf. From 2&3 ?????
So I can't tell you and I am not gonna guess because than I set myself in the same position as those I judge on it ;)

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:14 pm

The NorthAID (yes, yes, I said I had no "personal interest" in them but that changed when I read about their temperament) and ANCD are probably now at the top of my list of breeds for my next dog (2014?), if I can handle one of them. My biggest concern with either of them however, is that they are so wolfy-looking, that even if I have papers proving no wolf ancestor for at least 5 generations, I would be a little afraid to have my dog taken away.

Is there anyone who owns any of these dogs (or a very wolfy Tamaskan ;-)) in an area where only F5> are legal? (The dogs ARE legal - but their looks might attract attention you don't want.)

But still, some people will swear you have a wolf just as long as it is grey and not an obvious purebred Husky/Malamute/GSD. People in general are very bad at detecting the more detailed morphology of a wolf vs. a dog. So on the one hand, a dog of a less wolfy color (such as white or black) but with the morphology of a wolf (that most people won't recognize anyway) may not be at the same risk of attracting that sort of attention, as a wolf-grey "husky mix", or something similar.

But on the other hand, if humane society officials can look at a Shiba and see a coyote and thus dump the dog in the wilderness (yes, it really happened), one may start to wonder if any dog with prick ears is safe. :?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:17 pm

Nimwey wrote:The NorthAID (yes, yes, I said I had no "personal interest" in them but that changed when I read about their temperament) and ANCD are probably now at the top of my list of breeds for my next dog (2014?), if I can handle one of them. My biggest concern with either of them however, is that they are so wolfy-looking, that even if I have papers proving no wolf ancestor for at least 5 generations, I would be a little afraid to have my dog taken away.

Is there anyone who owns any of these dogs (or a very wolfy Tamaskan ;-)) in an area where only F5> are legal? (The dogs ARE legal - but their looks might attract attention you don't want.)

But still, some people will swear you have a wolf just as long as it is grey and not an obvious purebred Husky/Malamute/GSD. People in general are very bad at detecting the more detailed morphology of a wolf vs. a dog. So on the one hand, a dog of a less wolfy color (such as white or black) but with the morphology of a wolf (that most people won't recognize anyway) may not be at the same risk of attracting that sort of attention, as a wolf-grey "husky mix", or something similar.

But on the other hand, if humane society officials can look at a Shiba and see a coyote and thus dump the dog in the wilderness (yes, it really happened), one may start to wonder if any dog with prick ears is safe. :?
I can't chime into the legality issue, just wanted to say though that I think you will find a very big difference between an ANCD and a NorthAID...NorthAID's are basically still HC wolfdogs even though they are more "domestic" than your average HC. Still a very challenging animal though. An ANCD would be much easier is almost all respects I think, also they are signifigantly less wolfy looking than most NorthAIDs (many of whom look almost pure). Uneducated people think Yarrow looks like a wolf, but he clearly has many, many doggy traits! He is also has been a relatively easy dog to raise and train. I would love a NorthAID or other high content some day but I think that one of them would be infinitely more challenging than Yarrow has been, so I'm definitely going to wait for many years before seriously considering it.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:49 pm

Yes, I have a hard time grasping what they (NAID) are really like, because on the one hand, they are said to be way easier (wrong word: less difficult I mean) than other mid-high contents (which of course are very challenging animals that I yet have no idea of), and from the descriptions I've heard they, in some ways, sound easier than many Saarloos. :? :?: (Since with Saarloos, all I've heard is that they cannot be left alone, are very hard to housebreak, and many are carsick.)

But that doesn't make any sense, as Saarloos (unless I've been misinformed) only have around 20-25% wolf in them, if even that. (Some call them no-low content.)

I have finally come into contact with one NAID-owner (from Mexico), and want to talk with more of them. I realize the NAID are special animals and if there is any chance/risk they will be too much for me, I won't consider it (I have made that mistake before - not with dogs, but with very high-maintenance birds). I won't know however before I hear more.

Where are the discussions about these breeds, on sites like Facebook? I have only found the pages for Mark Klemperer (NAID) and the ANCD, but no discussion pages. :)
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Kootenaywolf » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:33 am

Nimwey wrote:Yes, I have a hard time grasping what they (NAID) are really like, because on the one hand, they are said to be way easier (wrong word: less difficult I mean) than other mid-high contents (which of course are very challenging animals that I yet have no idea of), and from the descriptions I've heard they, in some ways, sound easier than many Saarloos. :? :?: (Since with Saarloos, all I've heard is that they cannot be left alone, are very hard to housebreak, and many are carsick.)

But that doesn't make any sense, as Saarloos (unless I've been misinformed) only have around 20-25% wolf in them, if even that. (Some call them no-low content.)

I have finally come into contact with one NAID-owner (from Mexico), and want to talk with more of them. I realize the NAID are special animals and if there is any chance/risk they will be too much for me, I won't consider it (I have made that mistake before - not with dogs, but with very high-maintenance birds). I won't know however before I hear more.

Where are the discussions about these breeds, on sites like Facebook? I have only found the pages for Mark Klemperer (NAID) and the ANCD, but no discussion pages. :)
Yeah, the NorthAID thing is an interesting one, the thing is I think there is still a huge variety in the temperaments that you might get. So there is that one that can be left alone inside unattended, but then MOST of them would need secure outdoor containment (like other wolfdogs) to be left alone. Again, SOME are ok with small animals/good offleash/social with strangers, but then for every one that is, there is probably one that isn't. So, I think part of it is how they're raised, but also which litter they came from and just the luck of the draw. There is a NorthAID facebook group, here is the link - https://www.facebook.com/groups/371522792911638/

I am glad I went with an ANCD instead of a higher content wolfdog because it's a lot easier for him to fit into my lifestyle, instead of me really having to change my lifestyle to suit the dog, if that makes sense.

The ANCD facebook group is at this point in time only for owners, I'm not sure if that is maybe something that will change eventually, or not. It's not very active anyway. Ann's personal page has all the same updates etc.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Czertice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:38 am

weylyn wrote:Leendert Saarloos used 3. I bet you are familiar with Corrie? I don't say that in the whole breed Saarloos of today there are used 3 ;)
Thanks. Just yesterday I've heard another somewhat reliable rumour about Canadian Wolf being added by L. Saarloos. (he said she said Marijke said kind of "reliability" ;]) Gosh, it really makes me curious about what went into creating them... I guess we'll never fully know;] Just like with some CSWs with pedigrees that look veeery wolfy. Or incredibly saarloos-y.
I'm sorry, who is Corrie?
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Butters » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:22 am

I am new here, I have seen a picture of what they are calling a dire wolf..am actually interested in seeing if this wolf exist.I am again not sure of my wording if this breed doesn't exist...I am interested in a pure wolfbreed mix with a puredog breed both of very high quality genes (I am sorry if wording is wrong) just have always wanted a wolf or a unique wolf dog breed that will be very well loved and cared for.
:?

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:34 am

Butters wrote:I am new here, I have seen a picture of what they are calling a dire wolf..am actually interested in seeing if this wolf exist.I am again not sure of my wording if this breed doesn't exist...I am interested in a pure wolfbreed mix with a puredog breed both of very high quality genes (I am sorry if wording is wrong) just have always wanted a wolf or a unique wolf dog breed that will be very well loved and cared for.
:?
I am quite certain the dire wolf is extinct. While the Tamaskan does have wolf heritage, it's low content. You may be better off joining a wolfdog forum if you're interested and capable of owning a wolfdog. But a pure wolf? Sorry, I personally don't condone owning pure wolves - they belong in the wild.

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:39 am

^ that and I don't really see why people want HC wolfdogs either... There are so many alternatives... true may not look perfect but it's better than encouraging people to keep captive wolves to breed with dogs by buying them :(
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Butters wrote:I am new here, I have seen a picture of what they are calling a dire wolf..am actually interested in seeing if this wolf exist.I am again not sure of my wording if this breed doesn't exist...I am interested in a pure wolfbreed mix with a puredog breed both of very high quality genes (I am sorry if wording is wrong) just have always wanted a wolf or a unique wolf dog breed that will be very well loved and cared for.
:?
Welcome to the forum :)
True direwolves are indeed extinct, maybe you're thinking of the "direwolves" from the Game of Thrones TV series? They were played by Northern Inuits (a husky mix breed) which is one of the breeds that went into the creation of the Tamaskan Dog. IMHO: the Tamaskan Dog is a much more "wolfy" looking breed though... ;)

Anyway, as the others have said, the idea of "owning a wolf" is very popular but, on a practical level, it just isn't reasonable - they have wild instincts and don't act like dogs... they are difficult to train, require a lot of space, and have very primitive mannerisms (high prey drive, instinctual behavior, nervous around people, etc). On the other hand, most Tamaskan Dogs LOOK really wolf-like BUT they act just like regular dogs... it's a win:win situation all around. :)
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:50 pm

You may be thinking of the American Alsatian or Alsatian Shepalute, which is a work in progress to try to re-create the look of the Direwolf.
http://shepaluteclub.tripod.com/breeders/

I can't say they are succeeding, but if health and temperament is fine, they seem like a good choice for a more natural-looking really large dog.
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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by ASaroka » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:22 am

Kootenaywolf wrote: Also, I think this is just the coolest looking dog. I think it actually does have some wolf in it (obviously not a whole lot), but it is blue merle. So interesting!
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There is a Siberian Husky breeder in TN that has a Merle Sibe named Twister http://www.harleys-paws.com/twister.html
She's a beautiful dog, but probably not purebred as Merle isn't naturally occurring in the breed.

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The breeder also seems rather unscrupulous: http://www.complaintsboard.com/complain ... 88426.html

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Re: Other "wolfy-looking" (uncommon) Dog Breeds

Post by Nimwey » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:25 pm

I haven't seen British Lupine Dogs mentioned here before, I first heard of them just now on the Crufts live comments: http://www.britishlupinedog.co.uk/

Anyone know anything about them?
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