New outcrosses?

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Gaby
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Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Gaby » Sun May 29, 2011 12:12 pm

I was wondering how breeders are thinking regarding the gene-pool. The bloodlines which are there today are a good base but is it not unavoidable to introduce some new dogs at the long term?
And if so, what are the regulations about introducing new bloodlines? And what kind of traits have to be searched for regarding dogs who can be used to broaden the gene-pool?

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by blufawn » Sun May 29, 2011 12:24 pm

I think we would consider introducing a new dog if an acceptable one was found, but we are not actively searching at this time.
We have no written rules about accepting a new dog, but obviously health testing would be important and being able to see parents and any other relatives.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
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Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Gaby » Sun May 29, 2011 12:46 pm

blufawn wrote:I think we would consider introducing a new dog if an acceptable one was found, but we are not actively searching at this time.
We have no written rules about accepting a new dog, but obviously health testing would be important and being able to see parents and any other relatives.
It is probably quite difficult to find an acceptable dog, with the Tamaskan already being so pretty and friendly. ;) And when do you find a dog acceptable? Does he/she already has to have the Tamaskan looks? Or if that's not the case, is it an idea to breed a litter and use the most Tamlike pups for further breeding?

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Rahne » Sun May 29, 2011 2:45 pm

You could maybe do an outcross litter and then have the pups not fully registered as Tamaskan. Then take the best pups and breed them to a full Tamaskan to create a 2nd generation, breed again to a full Tamaskan to create a 3rd generation and then have those registered as full Tamaskan again. I know they do it like this in Belgium and Germany with official breeds.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by MoirAran » Sun May 29, 2011 3:54 pm

Also in The Netherlands they are thinking about it. The kennelclub of the Wetterhoun (Dutch breed) is considering outcross.
http://www.nvsw.nl/index.php?sp=110
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Maybe add in?

Post by Hiwatari » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:10 am

I was wondering if anyone has checked this off breed out.
http://shepaluteclub.tripod.com/breeders/index.html
I just seen them and by the looks they may help to spread the gene pool and a lot have of good looking dogs. their just starting off it seems. But you never know, pulling a puppy or two from them may aid the Tamaskan a lot. More so with the black gray colors.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Valravn » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:22 am

I'm on their forum but I don't post much. They are pretty small group. Only 2 breeders and only one actively breeding. I don't think the American Alsatian is a good outcross choice. The coats are too long and a bit wavey(I think from the Pyrenees mix), their bone structure is different. Longer tails. Coloration is very GSD(black mask is very strong in the breed). Lots of them do have gorgeous yellow eyes but I don't think that would be enough reason to add them. Also they are not working dogs.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Hiwatari » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:47 am

Yes I was just saying as they were going on about adding in for the black grays. Their very dark. Just an option.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Tarheel » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:21 am

No, I don't think so.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:31 am

I agree with John, dont need to say much more than that ;)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:08 am

Tarheel wrote:No, I don't think so.
:lol: i love the simpleness of his answer, yet it says so much...
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Taz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:14 pm

I think you would be doing the tamaskan a diservice to get involved with the American Alsatian.

The only breeder sees nothing wrong with breeding bitches as young as 9 months old.

She also has culling as part of her code of ethics.

There is also the small issue of some of the clames she makes on her website such as:

Pups will be champions, will have the correct ear set/eye colour, all that before they're even born.

Note, the price increases depending on how superior she tells you the pup/s are/will be.

Barge pole, wouldn't touch with sorry.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Glennz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:25 pm

I wondered when the American Alsatian would be here. :P
As outcross I would say no, too much shepherd in them.
I think crossing Tams with Alsatians would help their breed more then ours. :P

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Katlin » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:40 pm

Taz wrote:I think you would be doing the tamaskan a diservice to get involved with the American Alsatian.

The only breeder sees nothing wrong with breeding bitches as young as 9 months old.

She also has culling as part of her code of ethics.

There is also the small issue of some of the clames she makes on her website such as:

Pups will be champions, will have the correct ear set/eye colour, all that before they're even born.

Note, the price increases depending on how superior she tells you the pup/s are/will be.

Barge pole, wouldn't touch with sorry.
Wow, thanks for putting that in a nut shell :roll: didn't really have the time to read it all. As said before I wouldn't go anywhere near these dogs....I'm noticing how long the coats are, and also how varied the standard is, as well as the terrible points mentioned.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Saxon » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:04 pm

Hi
we have so many beautiful tamaskans I think any breeding should be done selectively within the breed, and thats my two pence worth.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TeresaC » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:35 am

I love the beauty of John's answer...nope.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:16 am

Ok I'm picking to just stop coming here and posting anything as everything I say gets a quick knock out or I get harassment about it. Just like I love how I say something get bashed and then someone else says the same thing and get a nice talk about it.

Sorry I have Tamaskan Wolfdogs and now other dogs you don't seems to like. But as I said I'm tried of everything I try to say to maybe aid your Tamaskan breed getting knocked down and being harassed about them. I was tyng to be just like anyone else who likes the Tamaskan breed and help out. But I'm done with it.
Saxon wrote:Hi
we have so many beautiful tamaskans I think any breeding should be done selectively within the breed, and thats my two pence worth.
Yes I would agree that there are a lot of great Tamaskan's. However the breed is far to young to not add in new dogs for breeding and also has heath problems showing up from inbreeding or as it was called when I brought it up. Line breeding (A nice why to say inbreed). If there was enough giving the looks wanted, there would be no need to breed dogs with the same gene pool together at all. But there isn't enough dogs in the breed yet that will give the standers they want without "line" Breeding. Can anyone give a 14 gen. paper without a single dog showing up more then once? If yes, then maybe there are enough dogs.

Breeds take years to make, I know your trying to make the Tamaskan a breed. But right now all of them are nothing by high priced, pretty looking mutts. When your able to take them into a big known kennel club show, then their a breed that you shouldn't think of adding in new lines.

The breed I brought up my not look the best out there, but would help with the black gray coat and that was why I brought it up. Nothing more.

Now good bye.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:25 am

:? I never read anything on here where you said one thing and get bashed for it and someone else say the same and praised for it :( I'm sorry that it is that way to you.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:47 am

Hiwatari wrote:Ok I'm picking to just stop coming here and posting anything as everything I say gets a quick knock out or I get harassment about it. Just like I love how I say something get bashed and then someone else says the same thing and get a nice talk about it.

Sorry I have Tamaskan Wolfdogs and now other dogs you don't seems to like. But as I said I'm tried of everything I try to say to maybe aid your Tamaskan breed getting knocked down and being harassed about them. I was tyng to be just like anyone else who likes the Tamaskan breed and help out. But I'm done with it.
Saxon wrote:Hi
we have so many beautiful tamaskans I think any breeding should be done selectively within the breed, and thats my twopennorth.
Yes I would agree that there are a lot of great Tamaskan's. However the breed is far to young to not add in new dogs for breeding and also has heath problems showing up from inbreeding or as it was called when I brought it up. Line breeding (A nice why to say inbreed). If there was enough giving the looks wanted, there would be no need to breed dogs with the same gene pool together at all. But there isn't enough dogs in the breed yet that will give the standers they want without "line" Breeding. Can anyone give a 14 gen. paper without a single dog showing up more then once? If yes, then maybe there are enough dogs.

Breeds take years to make, I know your trying to make the Tamaskan a breed. But right now all of them are nothing by high priced, pretty looking mutts. When your able to take them into a big known kennel club show, then their a breed that you shouldn't think of adding in new lines.

The breed I brought up my not look the best out there, but would help with the black gray coat and that was why I brought it up. Nothing more.

Now good bye.

Oh quit your whining. Other people’s ideas have had negatives too and they arn't complaining about it...

I think it could be the fact that a well selected GSD would be a better candidate than an American Alsatian and they all ready put forward the reasons for NOT using those. And you have already stated you will not be sticking to the tam guide lines and will be adding said GSD's.

I don't see harassment anywhere either... I see comments that you decide to argue with there for you need more indication only you think it's a good idea. posting this proves 1) you read nothing about the discussion about not adding GSD’s 2) if left to you, you really will add anything (remind anyone of any one in particular?).

When the time is right, they will find the right out cross and it should be the TDR committees’ decision alone. Not a rush job and add the 1st thing that comes to mind. It needs careful consideration to keep tams as they are but adding something that would bring in something good.

Have you not noticed that mutt's are quite expensive now anyway... £700 for a puggle (and the rest)?? But the Tamaskan is a breed in its own right. Just because it's not KC doesn't mean otherwise. KC allows bad breeding anyway so who would want to be part of that? where a load of other people can get a hold of a dog you created, change the standards, breed bad blood... it could even end up looking like a GSD if left in the hands of the KC cuz GSD's haven't always been banana backs. KC breeders WOULD change the tams.

You might get taken more seriously if you stop going back to RPK cuz when he gets a mention, you always try to defend him then add on "well what I’ve seen anyway". Do you think he would show you all the bad crap? Think again my friend... and anyway at the minute, your breeding standards just look like his. Breed anything with pointy two ears.

But you go ahead and use an American Alsatian for breeding. Never know, you may end up with a pup that looks like RPK's Roxy then you really will be like him... YAY for you.
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by jyotin » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:30 am

I'm scared that one day the breed will be used and abused and turned into crosses like a tam-adoodle or a Lab-askan :? :(
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Katlin » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:34 am

Hiwatari wrote:I know your trying to make the Tamaskan a breed. But right now all of them are nothing by high priced, pretty looking mutts.
Ease up there, no one was harassing you or being rude. Just because someone disagrees and doesn't explain, doesn't mean the whole world is against you :? And I do want to point out that you do seem to keep going back to RPK, talking of visiting him and stuff. That's all fine (I can't really talk because I'm getting Tundra) but some people here just don't care. Like I really hate to be rude here but some things may need to be kept to yourself rather than announced to a whole community of people who are against that person (not taking sides though).

I can understand your frustration but as Terri said not all ideas are "OMG yeah we have to do that!!!" The breed is newer, however I'm going to say let the TDR figure out whom to breed with whom rather than bringing in a new breed with little to no ethics (as stated before). Can you see the point now? :)
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:45 am

I would also like to say that just because this breed might 'help' the black-grey colour that doesn't mean it's a good option. You also need to think of what else it will bring into the breed, like in this case for example large ears, too much bone, broad muzzles etc. Those are things we do not want in the breed so then it might bring one good thing 'the color' and then a lot of more bad things. Outcrosses need to be carefully selected, not only on color but also general build, health and temperament ;)

In the other topic we already discussed the reasons why a GSD wouldn't be a suitable outcross and this is basicly the same breed but much heavier build and longer coat..

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:44 am

Boreal wrote: (I can't really talk because I'm getting Tundra)
you are saving her and giving her the fantastic retirement she needs (which i'm sure she will wholeheartedly thank you for) not buying a pup to keep his mill going 8-) , i can't see it's the same.
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:03 am

Joy I think you may be being a little paranoid.
There are plenty of people on this forum that own 'rival' breeds such as British Inuit, Aatu Tamaskan, RPK dogs, we treat everyone the same here and if you speak to them they will tell you that we dont hold their breed choices against them and they are all welcome. The fact that you own a RPK is not the reason people disagree with you.
The reason people disagree with you is simple, because they disagree, if someone else had suggested American Alsations we would have disagreed with them, its nothing personal.

While a lot of people think that you will be ruining your dogs by adding in GSD they are entitled to their opinion as you are entitled to yours, if you think that it will produce better looking or smarter dogs then give it a try. Personally I dont think it will make a huge difference because Tamaskan are already smart, competing in working trials, agility and sled racing. They already have a wolfy look that could be improved on by using a registered Tamaskan male instead of a GSD, but thats my opinion, I cant help it if it is shared by others on this forum, we are not 'picking' on you.

Also your insinuation that we interbred or even line breed are totally unfounded, these sorts of comments could be the reason your posts provoke such a passionate outburst from members.
Expes when things such as this Lol a Tamaskan is a breed but not pure. They are a mix of dogs to make a wolf looking one that is no where near being seen as a breed by a kennel club. No breed is seen as pure until there is at lest seven gens breeding turn to the look and temp wanted for it. However there is already a problem with inbreeding in the Tamaskan. Leading one to believe they will never get seen as a breed as they need to mate as close as litter mates to keep the look they want. which you wrote to Nikki Hahn are found on public sites, in this case facebook where anyone can see it. Please do your research before posting and dont insult the Tamaskan breed by writing this crap when you dont know the full facts, because we DO have enough generations to put in for Kennel Club recognition but we choose not to so we can continue to add in new lines, something else you would learn if you took the time to research. If you continue to spread this sort of information and claim it to be fact then you will not be welcome here and will be seen as a trouble maker.

We very rarely line breed, we prefer to experiment with as many outcrossings as we can to further the breed and only one mating has been done that was interbred (half brother x half sister) and it was an accident.
This breed is still a rare breed and very few dogs like you have said, but if you had taken the trouble to study the pedigrees you will see that the majority of the foundation dogs are not related to each other, the dogs we imported from Finland and the dogs we purchased in England have no connection to each other, we went to GREAT expense to secure new lines for the future so I dont appreciate your suggestion that we interbreed or your insinuation that matings from litter siblings has EVER happened because it hasnt, EVER.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by martinbernstein » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:42 pm

Here's their stated goal:
"...this is the only large breed of dog to be specifically bred for COMPANIONSHIP and nothing else!"

Here's their requirement for outcross dogs:
"3. It must possess qualities that will enhance the look of our breed toward the large Dire Wolf."

Inconsistencies?

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:20 pm

I noticed they mentioned the Dire Wolf. So are they trying to breed a dog that resembles a Dire Wolf? Cant find any actual pictures of them because they went extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago according to the BBC website.

The dire wolf was probably the heaviest canine ever to have existed. It earned its 'dire' tag from comparisons with the modern grey wolf. A much heftier beast with larger teeth, its powerful build and short legs indicate it might have been more of an ambush hunter and less of a long-distance runner than modern wolves. Despite being heavier, the dire wolf had a smaller brain than the grey wolf. Dire wolves were native to the Americas and thousands of their skeletons have been found in the La Brea tar pits. They became extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago in different areas of the Americas.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Taz » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:29 am

Hiwatari wrote:Ok I'm picking to just stop coming here and posting anything as everything I say gets a quick knock out or I get harassment about it. Just like I love how I say something get bashed and then someone else says the same thing and get a nice talk about it.

Sorry I have Tamaskan Wolfdogs and now other dogs you don't seems to like. But as I said I'm tried of everything I try to say to maybe aid your Tamaskan breed getting knocked down and being harassed about them. I was tyng to be just like anyone else who likes the Tamaskan breed and help out. But I'm done with it.

Breeds take years to make, I know your trying to make the Tamaskan a breed. But right now all of them are nothing by high priced, pretty looking mutts. When your able to take them into a big known kennel club show, then their a breed that you shouldn't think of adding in new lines. The breed I brought up my not look the best out there, but would help with the black gray coat and that was why I brought it up. Nothing more.

Now good bye.
Bloody hell fire!

I couldn't give a flying fisherman's shiny shite wether your dogs are from RPK or outer space...no one is picking on you because of it.

Yu suggested American Alsatians, others are suggesting that it maynot be the best choice. If everyone agreed with you, would you be moaning that people are just being nice to you coz you've got RPK dogs?...I doubt it.

Believe it or not, its got nothing to do with you or your dogs, people have mentioned them before and I've had the same reaction then as now.

To me, the breeder is someone I wouldn't touch with someone elses barge pole, end of. I don't even own a tamaskan (and I've not been treated any differently) but that person isn't someone I'd want to see the tamaskan associated with, as an outsider.
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I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
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But you are not free
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Katlin » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:16 am

blufawn wrote:I noticed they mentioned the Dire Wolf. So are they trying to breed a dog that resembles a Dire Wolf? Cant find any actual pictures of them because they went extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago according to the BBC website.

The dire wolf was probably the heaviest canine ever to have existed. It earned its 'dire' tag from comparisons with the modern grey wolf. A much heftier beast with larger teeth, its powerful build and short legs indicate it might have been more of an ambush hunter and less of a long-distance runner than modern wolves. Despite being heavier, the dire wolf had a smaller brain than the grey wolf. Dire wolves were native to the Americas and thousands of their skeletons have been found in the La Brea tar pits. They became extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago in different areas of the Americas.
LOL good catch. Does the TDR need more reasons not to add this breed?
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by wolfwannabe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:46 am

Hiwatari wrote:Ok I'm picking to just stop coming here and posting anything as everything I say gets a quick knock out or I get harassment about it. Just like I love how I say something get bashed and then someone else says the same thing and get a nice talk about it.

Sorry I have Tamaskan Wolfdogs and now other dogs you don't seems to like. But as I said I'm tried of everything I try to say to maybe aid your Tamaskan breed getting knocked down and being harassed about them. I was tyng to be just like anyone else who likes the Tamaskan breed and help out. But I'm done with it.
Saxon wrote:Hi
we have so many beautiful tamaskans I think any breeding should be done selectively within the breed, and thats my two pence worth.
Yes I would agree that there are a lot of great Tamaskan's. However the breed is far to young to not add in new dogs for breeding and also has heath problems showing up from inbreeding or as it was called when I brought it up. Line breeding (A nice why to say inbreed). If there was enough giving the looks wanted, there would be no need to breed dogs with the same gene pool together at all. But there isn't enough dogs in the breed yet that will give the standers they want without "line" Breeding. Can anyone give a 14 gen. paper without a single dog showing up more then once? If yes, then maybe there are enough dogs.

Breeds take years to make, I know your trying to make the Tamaskan a breed. But right now all of them are nothing by high priced, pretty looking mutts. When your able to take them into a big known kennel club show, then their a breed that you shouldn't think of adding in new lines.

The breed I brought up my not look the best out there, but would help with the black gray coat and that was why I brought it up. Nothing more.

Now good bye.
Wow now that's a bit over the top, some people didn't agree with you but that doesn't mean they don't like you or are bashing you, it just means they don't AGREE.

Others have made suggestions and were told "No thats not a good idea." It's just about what's good for the breed.

I don't have a Tam I have a "rival" breed but I have been made very welcome here.

I personaly like all the different wolfie breeds and I am a member of 4 different forums and have been made welcome at all of them. I think the Tamaskan is the one (at the moment) that is most "wolfie" and the most uniform in looks and I wouldn't want that ruined by adding the wrong breed just for a certain colouring. I'd rather loose the black/grey than ruin the rest of the breed.

To improve the breed I think.
1, thicken and slightly lengthen coat.
2, more yellow/amber eyes.
3, loose any curly tails and white tips.
4, smaller, well furred ears, more rounded tips.
5, bigger boned, slightly heavier set.
6, more standard height.

I don't see how a german shepherd would help with out causing more problems.
Mel.

Zeus 10.02.2007 - 24.07.2012 Rest in peace my boy, you'll always be missed.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:29 am

wolfwannabe wrote: 3, loose any curly tails and white tips.
sam got a white tip tail :(

i am however curious as to how they will make the ears smaller and more rounded. i'd love to see how tams are years from now...
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:36 am

Susi has lovely little round ears, but she is about the only one.

Obviously we can only take one step at a time, health, lines, tails and coats are being worked on as much as possible at the moment (in that order)
After that is all fixed we can work on build, height and colour, then ear size.
Eye colour and white tips on the tails is not high priority or even medium and will be left until the very last.
Only once all these things are achieved and are being consistantly shown in all Tamaskan litters will we think about going in for KC recognition, it may take another 15 years, maybe longer.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:39 am

TerriHolt wrote:
wolfwannabe wrote: 3, loose any curly tails and white tips.
sam got a white tip tail :(

i am however curious as to how they will make the ears smaller and more rounded. i'd love to see how tams are years from now...
Sølve has the white tail tip too.. its not a really big fault in my eyes, are other things i'd change before that, but then again...

I believe breeding with the right dogs will make the ears happen in time :)
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by wolfwannabe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:05 am

blufawn wrote:Susi has lovely little round ears, but she is about the only one.

Obviously we can only take one step at a time, health, lines, tails and coats are being worked on as much as possible at the moment (in that order)
After that is all fixed we can work on build, height and colour, then ear size.
Eye colour and white tips on the tails is not high priority or even medium and will be left until the very last.
Only once all these things are achieved and are being consistantly shown in all Tamaskan litters will we think about going in for KC recognition, it may take another 15 years, maybe longer.
I do like your priorities they make perfect sense, I think the Tamaskan is already far FAR more consistant than say the Northern Inuit which has been around longer. The NI still has patchy coats and black and whites, white faces (no masking) blue or bi eyes, huge ears, long and short coats, many still have very curly tails, I not saying I don't like them, I think alot are very lovely looking dogs but just not very wolfie which I thought was supposed to be the idea.

I think, in say ten years the NI will still look the same but the Tamaskan will be even more consistant and even more wolf like.

I'm not even going down the health road but to say Tam breeders seem to take health very seriously, which can only be a good thing.
Mel.

Zeus 10.02.2007 - 24.07.2012 Rest in peace my boy, you'll always be missed.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:22 pm

I agree, some NI and Utonagan are very nice and look very similar to our Tamaskan, but so many more look like awful Malamute, Husky or GSD crosses. It seems the NI people are just settling for what they have got rather than saying 'this dog is no good therefore I wont breed from it'.
Lynn is quite the opposite from that and wont breed from something she doesnt like and if she doesnt like your dog then she will tell you if you ask her (or sometimes if you dont). It hasnt made her many friends and a lot of people ignore her anyway (Zee with Robbie, Liz with Odin) or they will fall out and resent her for it (Bruce with Sampo) but its these sorts of decisions and business like attitude that has made the Tamaskan what it is today.

I think if the NI took this attitude and only allowed the healthiest and best looking dogs to breed, they would improve considerably, but its not going to happen because a lot of the breeders are just in it for the money and will breed from anything they can get their hands on.
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by wolfwannabe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:05 pm

blufawn wrote:I noticed they mentioned the Dire Wolf. So are they trying to breed a dog that resembles a Dire Wolf? Cant find any actual pictures of them because they went extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago according to the BBC website.

The dire wolf was probably the heaviest canine ever to have existed. It earned its 'dire' tag from comparisons with the modern grey wolf. A much heftier beast with larger teeth, its powerful build and short legs indicate it might have been more of an ambush hunter and less of a long-distance runner than modern wolves. Despite being heavier, the dire wolf had a smaller brain than the grey wolf. Dire wolves were native to the Americas and thousands of their skeletons have been found in the La Brea tar pits. They became extinct between 16,000 and 10,000 years ago in different areas of the Americas.
Could the Dire wolf just have something to do with the Game of Thrones tv program :? another selling ploy maybe :roll:
blufawn wrote:I agree, some NI and Utonagan are very nice and look very similar to our Tamaskan, but so many more look like awful Malamute, Husky or GSD crosses. It seems the NI people are just settling for what they have got rather than saying 'this dog is no good therefore I wont breed from it'.
Lynn is quite the opposite from that and wont breed from something she doesnt like and if she doesnt like your dog then she will tell you if you ask her (or sometimes if you dont). It hasnt made her many friends and a lot of people ignore her anyway (Zee with Robbie, Liz with Odin) or they will fall out and resent her for it (Bruce with Sampo) but its these sorts of decisions and business like attitude that has made the Tamaskan what it is today.

I think if the NI took this attitude and only allowed the healthiest and best looking dogs to breed, they would improve considerably, but its not going to happen because a lot of the breeders are just in it for the money and will breed from anything they can get their hands on.
I agree totally.

The problem is many people have trouble seeing faults in their own dogs but faults have to be seen and avoided when creating a new breed, I know it's difficult for the owners who look at their own dog and think it's perfect in their eyes.

Take my Zeus for example I love him dearly and to me he is perfect but if I'm honest as a wolf look a like he has many faults :oops: :lol: snow nose, curly tail with white tip, huge ears, coat to short, eyes too round BUT nice colour :lol: mouth to loose flappy jowls :roll: oh the drool :roll: :lol: face markings too pronounced and the masking is broken down one side of his nose :roll: oh dear I could go on :roll: :lol: :lol: But he's my boy and I love him and think he is the most handsome dog ever and all those faults make him ZEUS ;) 8-) One of a kind never repeated :lol: :lol:
Mel.

Zeus 10.02.2007 - 24.07.2012 Rest in peace my boy, you'll always be missed.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by WhiteElkDoe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:40 pm

Definitely in agreement with the idea that it's so important to view your dogs at arm's length when it comes to breeding.

I love my girls to death, but I know that (so far) Rhea has a curly, white tipped tail, and her coat is a bit short. However I also know that she has the greatest temperament ever. She's clever, energetic, and SO eager to please. Sophie has a well oriented tail, with no white tip, and is quite fluffy. But she's also pretty ambivalent about most things, which means training her for tougher stuff (things that require LOTS of motivation on the part of the dog) will be harder for her, even if it does make her a FANTASTIC cuddler.

There's pluses and minuses to every dog, yours or not. And they've all got to be considered.

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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:49 pm

I can (and do) view my dogs objectively... while I love them with all my heart (and don't need other's validation to influence my own opinion of them) I can definitely see their faults and strengths with regards to the breed standard. I also know exactly what could be improved upon and take these factors into consideration when planning a possible mating. :)
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:39 pm

my boy is perfect in every way ;) :lol: JK (except the white tip tail, slight kink in the end and any others i can't think of right now :D :lol: , i just wanted to have a go at saying it :oops:)
blufawn wrote:I agree, some NI and Utonagan are very nice and look very similar to our Tamaskan, but so many more look like awful Malamute, Husky or GSD crosses. It seems the NI people are just settling for what they have got rather than saying 'this dog is no good therefore I wont breed from it'.
Lynn is quite the opposite from that and wont breed from something she doesnt like and if she doesnt like your dog then she will tell you if you ask her (or sometimes if you dont). It hasnt made her many friends and a lot of people ignore her anyway (Zee with Robbie, Liz with Odin) or they will fall out and resent her for it (Bruce with Sampo) but its these sorts of decisions and business like attitude that has made the Tamaskan what it is today.

I think if the NI took this attitude and only allowed the healthiest and best looking dogs to breed, they would improve considerably, but its not going to happen because a lot of the breeders are just in it for the money and will breed from anything they can get their hands on.
with breeding, it's always best to be honest and up front and not to delude anyone into thinking they got the best dog ever... if such a dog exsists, in any breed... some people will chose to ignore because they think their dog a fantastic dog... i mean, don't get me wrong... sam is a fantastic dog and in my eyes and for me he is (almost) perfect... but that is for me. jennie, lynn and everyone else will probibly disagree if i told them that he is perfect for them but as long as he is (almost) perfect for me and my home, i will listen if they don't like my dog. i'm able to see his faults, shame not everyone can then there (maybe) wouldn't be so many renegade breeders.

i'm not too good explaining things that confuse me :oops: , i hope you get it tho...
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Re: Maybe add in?

Post by blufawn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:15 pm

TerriHolt wrote: jennie, lynn and everyone else will probibly disagree if i told them that he is perfect for them but as long as he is (almost) perfect for me and my home, i will listen if they don't like my dog.
I didn't really get a good look at him, but I know my mum thought he was lovely so no worries there ;)
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Although new bloodlines aren't considered at the moment, there was a discussion about Belgian Shepherds in this topic: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=441.

I'm active on another forum in Holland and I saw something new. This is a Long Haired Dutch Shepherd with a not recognized colour:
Image

The owners website: http://hollandseherderlanghaar.nl/ It's still a puppy, but I thought he is beautiful!
And I think the Long Haired Dutch Shepherd is looking quite wolfy!

This is a fully grown Dutch Shepherd in the normal colour:
Image

And another one, picture was to big to post on the forum:
http://www.webklik.nl/user_files/2009_1 ... 6a8dfb.jpg

The Dutch Shepherd is a very healthy breed too, with good hips and good working ability.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:57 pm

Gaby wrote:I'm active on another forum in Holland and I saw something new. This is a Long Haired Dutch Shepherd with a not recognized colour:
Image

The owners website: http://hollandseherderlanghaar.nl/ It's still a puppy, but I thought he is beautiful!
And I think the Long Haired Dutch Shepherd is looking quite wolfy!
It's a cute puppy... BUT we wouldn't want to add it (or something similar) to Tamaskan bloodlines, or we'd end up with dogs that look like those fluffy puppies produced by RPK - cute enough, but NOT Tamaskans! I think the end result would look too similar and, as it is now, people can clearly see the difference between a true Tamaskan and RPK's fake wannabe version.
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Katlin » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:55 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Gaby wrote:I'm active on another forum in Holland and I saw something new. This is a Long Haired Dutch Shepherd with a not recognized colour:
Image

The owners website: http://hollandseherderlanghaar.nl/ It's still a puppy, but I thought he is beautiful!
And I think the Long Haired Dutch Shepherd is looking quite wolfy!
It's a cute puppy... BUT we wouldn't want to add it (or something similar) to Tamaskan bloodlines, or we'd end up with dogs that look like those fluffy puppies produced by RPK - cute enough, but NOT Tamaskans! I think the end result would look too similar and, as it is now, people can clearly see the difference between a true Tamaskan and RPK's fake wannabe version.
That would be a problem, one of the major distinctions between the TDR and "TCA" dogs (besides the mask and breeding obviously) is the fur length. I think the black Shepherd looks semi-wolfy but he could carry genes that make tan or another color that isn't wolfy at all...
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New outcrosses?

Post by Glennz » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:43 am

Hello.
I found some great Finish huskies.

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/sainen/m_huskyt/banda.htm
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/sainen/m_huskyt/sorlie.htm
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/sainen/m_h ... lfgang.htm
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/sainen/f_huskyt/bruin.htm
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/sainen/f_huskyt/ylipaa.htm

You can also check their pedigree.
They have small ears, some appear to have yellow eyes, a really wolfy look, etc.
I really like them. :D

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Gaby » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:14 am

I understand that to make an out cross and find a good breed for it is very difficult. But I do like these dogs better then the Belgium shepherds, in appearance in character and their health is very good. The ears aren't very big either. If you look at the second and fourth dog, the masking is minimal. If the coat length is a problem, there are also short haired dogs:
Image

Image

Image

I found this girl, also long haired (not so long though), even with light coloured eyes:
Image
Boreal wrote:
Sylvaen wrote: It's a cute puppy... BUT we wouldn't want to add it (or something similar) to Tamaskan bloodlines, or we'd end up with dogs that look like those fluffy puppies produced by RPK - cute enough, but NOT Tamaskans! I think the end result would look too similar and, as it is now, people can clearly see the difference between a true Tamaskan and RPK's fake wannabe version.
That would be a problem, one of the major distinctions between the TDR and "TCA" dogs (besides the mask and breeding obviously) is the fur length. I think the black Shepherd looks semi-wolfy but he could carry genes that make tan or another color that isn't wolfy at all...
Yes, the genes the dogs carry are difficult to predict. But I doubt if it is good for the Tamaskans work- and trainability to use new breeds who look more like wolves. And I think character is a very big factor in breeding Tams. People can get a Tam, although they do not have much experience with dogs, because Tams are easygoing and better to train then a Husky for example. And I think that will be more difficult if there will only be outcrosses with polarbreeds. But I don't have anything to say about that of course, I'm just thinking about it. ;)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:31 am

Yes, these are very similar to the 'other' finnish huskies that we used. I quite like Banda (top one), buts its better to see them in person.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Gaby » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:35 am

blufawn wrote:Yes, these are very similar to the 'other' finnish huskies that we used. I quite like Banda (top one), buts its better to see them in person.
Yes, he is very pretty, reminds me of Dingo indeed.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:37 am

Some of these dogs are lovely, but they are not consistant and not all have the look we want, I would worry we could end up with something very unlike a Tam. I like the bottom dog (in the last post) but not the other 3.
I dont think they could offer anything better than the BSD.
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If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by wolfwannabe » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:39 am

They are very lovely looking dogs and in my mind the best suggestion so far for an outcross but I know nothing about breeding I just think some of them have the right look :)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:43 am

wolfwannabe wrote:They are very lovely looking dogs and in my mind the best suggestion so far for an outcross but I know nothing about breeding I just think some of them have the right look :)
This is very true, while we look at the picture and think it looks nice and has the look we want, who is to know that the mother isnt piebald with two blue eyes and the father has a snap tail so far down his back that all Tamaskan will suddenly look like badly bred Malamutes.
Much more than the looks of a single dog has to be taken into consideration before choosing.
After the 'looks' test then the health test of that dog and its parents.
Then the hardest part is getting permission from the owner to use their much loved prize winning pedigree dog on a scruffy mongrel like ours :D
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Gaby » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:19 am

blufawn wrote:
wolfwannabe wrote:They are very lovely looking dogs and in my mind the best suggestion so far for an outcross but I know nothing about breeding I just think some of them have the right look :)
This is very true, while we look at the picture and think it looks nice and has the look we want, who is to know that the mother isnt piebald with two blue eyes and the father has a snap tail so far down his back that all Tamaskan will suddenly look like badly bred Malamutes.
Much more than the looks of a single dog has to be taken into consideration before choosing.
After the 'looks' test then the health test of that dog and its parents.
Then the hardest part is getting permission from the owner to use their much loved prize winning pedigree dog on a scruffy mongrel like ours :D
:lol: :lol: :lol: (But seriously, that could be quite difficult!)

But what would you think will happen with the characters if there will be added more pure racing Huksy's into the Tamaskan breed?

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