REAL Tamaskan vs "Tamaskan Wolfdog / American Tamaskan"

CaliforniaWolf · Post by **CaliforniaWolf** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:16 am

I'm very sorry if this question has already been answered.

I have read your FACTS AND FICTION page and several other discussions but I'm just not getting it, call me stupid

What is the difference BREED WISE between the Tamaskan and Tamaskan Wolfdog. I know that RPK is the only current breeder however I understand that his tams the original ones are Blustag and another TDR breeders' dogs.

I'm sorry if I sound rude or disbelieving as this is certainly not the case, I think I am missing a pice of the puzzle that I'm hoping your guys can help me with.

Thanks in advance!

jyotin · Post by **jyotin** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:12 am

I may be incorrect, but my understanding is that he did have some litters that were 100% tamaskan, but then he started to breed his tamaskans with non-tamaskans, and gave them the tamaskan wolfdog name. The tamaskan litters from TDR breeders consist of 100% tamaskan parents, whereas he breeds whatever looks "wolfy" and calls it a tamaskan wolfdog. Hope I got that right?

Post by **Sylvaen** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:19 am

For many people it can be quite confusing to differentiate between the genuine TAMASKAN breed and the "Tamaskan Wolfdog" of RPK. Unfortunately, RPK exploits this confusion by claiming that his "version" is the American counterpart to the Finnish breed. This is false. Clearly, when you look at his puppies, you can see that they are very different to the real Tamaskan Dogs (appearance, size, coat length). Keep in mind that the original breed has been selectively bred over many generations to create the Tamaskan Dogs of today.

You see, the Tamaskan is well-established in Europe and, increasingly, in America. It is only a matter of time until official recognition. Of course all TDR breeding dogs are fully health tested (hips, eyes, DM, etc) and DNA profiled to prove ancestry. Understandably, only dogs listed in the TDR database (traceable to the Foundation Dogs) will count when the breed is officially recognized.

Kevin (of RPK) originally obtained 3 TDR Tamaskan Dogs from IceWind Kennel (a Shiba Inu puppy farm). As jyotin explained perfectly, RPK did have some litters (in the very beginning) out of these 3 dogs, which were pure Tamaskan. These puppies were registered with the TDR and are genuine Tamaskan Dogs (can participate in shows, etc). Later it was discovered that he had LIED about his dogs' birth-dates so that they could be scored by the OFA. In light of the number of litters being mass-produced, as well as other VIOLATIONS of the Breeders Code, he was removed from the TDR. Now he is out-crossing to various "wolfy" looking dogs, producing mixbreeds without following a set Breed Standard.

Phenotype aside, there are also variations in temperament and health that result from out-crossing to other breeds / mix-breeds. Really interesting is the fact that he falsified a PEDIGREE for Tumble by stating that he is of TDR bloodlines. This is false. In reality, Tumble of an unknown source and is probably a crossbreed of NAID or Utonagan heritage. Moreover, he first said that Delilah was IMPORTED from Germany and then (later on) that she was the OFFSPRING of Tasha X Moose. Recently, it was discovered that he had falsified Moose's ANCESTRY to hide the epilepsy in his bloodlines. On his website, Shadow is no longer listed... however, she is not a Tamaskan, as evident in PEDIGREES that he produced himself. So, in comparison with real Tamaskan pups, when you look at the offspring from Roxy X Tumble, you will see puppies like THIS. Even though he continuously attempts to confuse the public, the facts speak for themselves... you just have to read between the lines.

blufawn · Post by **blufawn** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:03 pm

Everything Debby says is true. If you mix Tamaskan with husky, german shepherd or whatever crossbreed dogs you can get hold of quickly or cheaply, you will never produce the results like that of the true Tamaskan whose foundation dogs have been researched and specifically chosen for looks, health and temperament.

The picture of the pup that Debby has linked to above just goes to show that he has not properly researched the type of colours he may produce by adding in too much husky and from lines with the incorrectly coloured coat for a Tamaskan.

Almost every single foundation dog that we chose were wolf grey for at least 2 generations before them, giving us a better chance at producing all wolf grey pups. We saw parents, grandparents and sometimes brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles before we were happy that the pup would produce the correct 'type' for us.

Kevin simply doesn't care about this, he just buys what he thinks looks 'wolfish' without a thought to health, temperament or ancestry of the dog. We knew it wouldn't take long before his pups looked totally different to the 'real' Tamaskan and it is already starting to show now... soon they will look nothing alike.

Post by **Sylvaen** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:25 am

Here you can see some of the differences between real Tamaskan Dogs and the wannabe / fake / copycat versions:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4 ... 2164261130

Blustag · Post by **Blustag** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:01 pm

I think this link is a little confusing to those that already dont know which is which. There are mixed pictures here of both types but no mention of which is which? Could it not be made a little clearer so people wont be confused? The idea is good though

blufawn · Post by **blufawn** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:14 pm

It does say under the pictures what they are (on the left)

JulieSmith · Post by **JulieSmith** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:16 pm

blufawn wrote:It does say under the pictures what they are (on the left)

I only see the pictures nothing to say if they are the real Tamaskan or the fake.

Post by **Sylvaen** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:15 am

If you click on each picture, there is a full detailed explanation in each caption.

Blustag · Post by **Blustag** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:38 pm

Glad Im not the only one not seeing it

Still think it could be made much clearer for the people 'out there'

Post by **Sylvaen** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:57 pm

Blustag wrote:Still think it could be made much clearer for the people 'out there'

There's not much that can be done to change the Facebook source code to make the captions show up in album view, the captions only show up when you click on each individual picture. Otherwise, just hover your mouse over each picture.

Post by **Nino** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:48 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Blustag wrote:Still think it could be made much clearer for the people 'out there'
There's not much that can be done to change the Facebook source code to make the captions show up in album view, the captions only show up when you click on each individual picture. Otherwise, just hover your mouse over each picture.

could put text on the pictures though

JulieSmith · Post by **JulieSmith** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:16 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Blustag wrote:Still think it could be made much clearer for the people 'out there'
There's not much that can be done to change the Facebook source code to make the captions show up in album view, the captions only show up when you click on each individual picture. Otherwise, just hover your mouse over each picture.

The mouse hover only worked once I had clicked on one photo, otherwise it just says to click on the photo to see it larger, or something like that. Interesting to see the differences, Tamaskans are so much nicer, well I think so.

Lyss · Post by **Lyss** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:45 am

I have an online acquaintance I was chatting with who seems to think a (very obviously) malamute looks like a pure wolf. Snow nose, unblended black-and-white mask, white stripe up the forehead and everything. She told me she's been involved with wolves for years, so I'd assumed she'd done her research :\

It's just all the misleading information out there that allows RPK and those like him to get away with calling a mutt a wolfdog or wolfdog lookalike when they look more like huskies and mals.

Anyway, it's just refreshing to see a comparison between the real deal (Tams) and the fake

Thanks for posting!

Glennz · Post by **Glennz** » Thu May 12, 2011 1:54 pm

I have heard about the Tamaskan wolfdogs from RPK and while researching I just found something amusing.

The following quotes are from the "breed standard" of The Tamaskan Club of America.

The tail should be caried in a sickle extending from the croup upward and the tail should reach to the hock joint when the dog is relaxed. The tail is carried downward when at relaxed or at rest, but when the dog is in motion, it is carried higher. The tail, should not be carried tightly curled curled over the back. The tail has coarse thick hair with no feathering.

DISQUALIFYING FEATURES
Blue eyes and any other color that what is listed above.
Ear carriage that does not meet the above standards.
Markings that are Siberian or "Malamute-like".
Tail carriage that does not meet the above standards.
Male dogs must have two normally descended testicles fully into the scrotum.

Now look at the following picture.

Look at the face and now look at this Malamute.

Post by **Sylvaen** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:04 pm

Yep... you should see his mixbreed dog "Tumble" who looks even more like a Malamute cross...
The offspring look nothing like real Tamaskan Dogs!!

Post by **HiTenshi16** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:05 pm

RPK doesn't follow any guidelines or standards, just breeds anything that he thinks is wolfy and attaches the Tamaskan name to it, and sadly other people fall for this and see a cute puppy picture and buy from him.

Glennz · Post by **Glennz** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:27 pm

Sylvaen wrote:Yep... you should see his mixbreed dog "Tumble" who looks even more like a Malamute cross...
The offspring look nothing like real Tamaskan Dogs!!

I found him.
I am wondering, if people first see this on the internet (a real registered Tamaskan):

how on earth can they click the buy button at this thing (RPK's fake version)?

(This is Tumble)

Blustag · Post by **Blustag** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:52 pm

Glennz wrote:I have heard about the Tamaskan wolfdogs from RPK and while researching I just found something amusing.

The following quotes are from the "breed standard" of The Tamaskan Club of America.

The tail should be caried in a sickle extending from the croup upward and the tail should reach to the hock joint when the dog is relaxed. The tail is carried downward when at relaxed or at rest, but when the dog is in motion, it is carried higher. The tail, should not be carried tightly curled curled over the back. The tail has coarse thick hair with no feathering.

Now that is very amusing... just shows what an idiot he is

Hiwatari · Post by **Hiwatari** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:35 pm

I can't say Tumble looks the part, but the puppies from him that I know do.

blufawn · Post by **blufawn** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:39 pm

Thats assuming that Tumble is the father...........
We have been told that he just leaves all his dogs in together and sometimes has no idea who the father if the litters are.

Post by **Nino** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:20 pm

One cant really be sure that Tumble is the father of any of the pups said to be his..

without any certain DNA results Im not a believer..

kendrrat · Post by **kendrrat** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:09 pm

Hiwatari, those dogs is very beautiful, but yeah i question if tumble was involved in the breeding.

and yeah, im pretty sure he copy/pasted most of his "breed standard" from the TDR website or something and im also 100% sure its only there for looks to fool unsuspecting costumers who even go so far as to look for it.

Post by **Sylvaen** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:28 pm

Exactly. Both Ula and Rin look like purebred Tamaskans. I would be very surprised if Tumble is indeed their true sire.
Again, this is why DNA profiling is so important... and why all breeding dogs must be DNA profiled. Actually, if you DNA profile Ula and Rin it should be fairly easy to compare their profiles - if they are half-sisters, they will share their sire's DNA markers. That being said, that would only prove whether or not they are indeed related to one another. It wouldn't be able to prove that Tumble is their sire, without having Tumble's profile for comparison.

Post by **TerriHolt** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:58 pm

kendrrat wrote: im also 100% sure its only there for looks to fool unsuspecting costumers who even go so far as to look for it.

"unsuspecting victim"...

his whole website lookes wrong to me. and i looked thru the adult's when i was first looking to get a tam and it doesn't make sense.

Blackie "daughter of Tasha/Moose -i think is wrong if you compair the 2 dogs and her
Blitzen "daughter of Tasha/Moose - doesn't look right either
Roxy "daughter of Tundra/Moose - again... ????
Delilah "daughter of Tasha/Moose - questionable...
Shakira "our newest Tamaskan - poor girl...
Tasha - i looked thru her pics and i'm not sure if it's just some of the camera angles but some pics don't look like her... - this i am prob wrong on.

i maybe wrong on all accounts but it was all that alone that sent warning signs telling me to not send the e-mail i wrote. never mind the rest of the website....

i hope someday he can be stopped... if people like Glennz who is not a breeder (there for has no gain pointing this out and can't be accused of shunting the comp) keep pointing out his mistakes (he prob has a trail of the somewhere inc steeling pics of others) so people will read it and see him for what he is... a lier, cheat and a theif...

JulieSmith · Post by **JulieSmith** » Thu May 12, 2011 9:01 pm

I came across RPK while looking for Tamaskans when I first got interested in the breed. If you know that puppy mills exist then there are enough warning signs on the site to make you keep clear or at least research further. Unfortunately there are enough people out there who only really want a dog as a fashion accessory or status symbol (got the good job, got the car, wife, kids oh get a dog next!) I have someone on my facebook that posted that someone had tried to steal her dog one morning, but only after she had put a post that it was her birthday in a few days, did not seem that bothered about almost loosing her dog. I am sure she would have been if it had really been taken. But it is people like that who do not research fully the dog they are getting, they just see the cute puppy and get it, if they are lucky they get a healthy one.

Hiwatari · Post by **Hiwatari** » Fri May 13, 2011 1:55 am

Well until proven wrong, I'll continue to think that Tumble is the father. I will be getting both my girls tested for both...

The Canine DNA Parentage Test
The Canine DNA Identification Test, DNA PawPrint

From this place http://www.metamorphixinc.com/products2b.html

So we will find out. I'm sure he isn't going to have a problem with me getting a sample from Tumble and Shadow. I'll have to see if I can get one from Moose for Akira's. I'll let everyone know once I do how that comes out. The test are being sent to me now.

Post by **Tarheel** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:13 am

Joy,
You should not have any problem getting DNA profiles from your dog's parents.
Right Puppy states from their Tamaskan Club of America website :

"ALL American Tamaskans are now DNA profiled to help protect the breed against fraudulent breeders, please do not purchase a puppy from parents that have not been DNA profiled and have a certificate stating their breed and parentage.

Please Note: If you are not buying a American Tamaskan from the one of the Registered Breeders then there is no way to ensure that you are getting an authentic American Tamaskan. The Tamaskan Club of America™ maintains a database of all legitimate American Tamaskans in North America. Don't be fooled by other breeders claiming to have authentic American Tamaskans. Buying an authentic American Tamaskan gives you the assurance that all of ethical breeding practices are strictly adhered to. If you have any questions, feel free to contact the Tamaskan Club of America™ for more information."

But I am confused, does your RPK registration call your dogs Tamaskan Wolfdogs, or American Tamaskan.
As a matter of fact, RPK should be able to send your DNA into MMI for you and match the parents since all of his breeding stock has already been tested and profiled. The records are kept in a database at MMI.

Post by **Sylvaen** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:36 am

Hiwatari wrote:Well until proven wrong, I'll continue to think that Tumble is the father. I will be getting both my girls tested for both...

The Canine DNA Parentage Test
The Canine DNA Identification Test, DNA PawPrint

From this place http://www.metamorphixinc.com/products2b.html

So we will find out. I'm sure he isn't going to have a problem with me getting a sample from Tumble and Shadow. I'll have to see if I can get one from Moose for Akira's. I'll let everyone know once I do how that comes out. The test are being sent to me now.

All breeding Tamaskan Dogs are DNA profiled with MMI Genomics and RPK claims his dogs are too, so no need for you to pay for HIS dogs to be tested again! It is a simple matter to just test your dogs and compare them with the DNA profiles for RPK's dogs, which should already be on record... the laboratory can even do it for you. I'm sure it'll be no problem to get Moose's profile too.

No doubt many puppy purchasers will be asking RPK for DNA profile records, particularly people who bought puppies from "Tasha's" recent litter.

Hiwatari · Post by **Hiwatari** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:44 am

Yes both my girls papers say Tamaskan Wolfdog as he just changed the breeds name. I asked about that and haven't gotten an answer about it yet. Nikki has also asked to see if we will be getting new papers for them our dogs. Two asking is better then one after all.

If they are in then I shouldn't have any problems. But it's if they are. I also haven't gotten any DNA papers for parents. but i'll ask the person sending me the test if any of the dogs are already in.

kendrrat · Post by **kendrrat** » Fri May 13, 2011 5:53 am

i cant wait to see who the dogs' parents are

while im skeptical that tumble is involved i am still very interested in seeing what breeding made your dog and your friend's dog possible. cant wait to hear what happens- keep us posted!

Post by **Sylvaen** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:36 am

Hiwatari wrote:I also haven't gotten any DNA papers for parents. but i'll ask the person sending me the test if any of the dogs are already in.

Any update on the DNA situation?

Post by **HiTenshi16** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:48 pm

Just made this for a comparison to show how much REAL Tamaskan puppies look like wolf puppies compared to RPK's mutt pups and how much his look like Malamute puppies.

Post by **AZDehlin** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:59 pm

This comparison chart is great... Thanks HiTenshi16!

Tamaskan dogs look like the Wolf and RPK's mutts look closer to Malamutes than a Tamaskan

Post by **Tarheel** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:54 am

Nice Chart work. We need to put that on the TDR website.

Post by **HiTenshi16** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:40 am

Tarheel wrote:Nice Chart work. We need to put that on the TDR website.

Thank you, you have my permission (if you feel it is needed) to put it on the TDR site, I'm glad you like it

Post by **Sylvaen** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:12 am

Great job! Even though it is obvious to most people, there are still some who are oblivious and this comparison chart should clearly demonstrate to them that the fake version looks more like a Malamute than a wolf!

Post by **Katlin** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:59 am

Awesome chart!!

Misaya · Post by **Misaya** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:01 am

Great chart

Blustag · Post by **Blustag** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:11 am

Good work

WhiteElkStag · Post by **WhiteElkStag** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:28 am

I love the comparison! I would do one thing to modify it before we put it on the TDR site though.... I would add photo credit and copyright information. As a critical viewer I look at that chart and think, "Okay, I see the point you're trying to make... but prove to me that the 'wolf' pups are actually 'wolf' pups and the 'malamute' pups are actually 'malamute.'" Also, giving credit where credit is due will further reinforce where each dog comes from.

Post by **HiTenshi16** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:27 pm

I'll have to find those links again for the credit, I don't know how I would put that in, do you think you could fix it for me if I give you the links?

Post by **Nino** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:32 pm

Cant put it on TDR site without asking to use the pictures can you?

and I doubt really much that Kevin will let you use his pictures, and then it would be breaking copyrights wouldn't it?

Just thinking
(I like the Idea but I don't think anyone should get trapped in anything that could cause lawsuid..)

WhiteElkStag · Post by **WhiteElkStag** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:54 pm

I just did a quick bit of research and found this excellent article written by an attorney in California.

David L. Amkraut, "The Seven Deadly Sins of Internet Copyright," <http://webnet77.com/webstuff/copyright.html>

He provides a summary:

Unless you have specific permission, you can not distribute, copy, publicly display, sell, or otherwise exploit or commercially use someone else's photos.

The "Fair Use" doctrine almost never excuses infringement of a photograph, particularly where the infringing use is commercial or where it hurts the market for the photo.

Copyright is normally valid with or without a copyright notice.

Copyright infringement is copyright infringement regardless of the infringer's motive.

People who infringe photographs are likely to be crushed in Court.

So, I love this chart. I think its very telling and the basic information contained within it should be publicized. But, we need to obtain permission for use of every picture before we can do so. And then under each picture it needs to briefly say "(c) Name of Photographer." I know that there are a few people on this forum who have purchased pups from him, perhaps they would be willing to share puppy pictures of their dogs. Lynn could likely provide the Malamute pics fairly easily, and I'm sure that she would be glad to give written permission. For the Tams, I'm sure that the owners would be glad to give permission for use of the pictures. And, finally we'll need to get in touch with the owner of the wolf pics to ask for permission. We're on a slippery slope here, we have to make absolutely certain to do everything properly.

WhiteElkDoe · Post by **WhiteElkDoe** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Here's a bunch of pictures that are licensed under the creative commons as stock images. Check each one, but I'm pretty sure that you can use them in making other pictures.

http://browse.deviantart.com/resources/ ... on=&q=wolf

http://browse.deviantart.com/resources/ ... q=malamute

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:05 pm

Is it just me or am I seeing more of those Akita-mix (of which RPK has once claimed them to be high-content wolfdogs that he got from Paul Tilley), Cream-coloured Shiba Inu (a colour that major kennels reject), Floppy-eared Huskies, and other mutts not listed on his websites in this video? That's a LOT of faults I'm seeing here!

Post by **HiTenshi16** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:56 pm

RPK does not stick with any breed standards. What I noticed at the end of that video was the way Galileo walked, like there was something wrong with his hip, which probably explains why he was being "lazy".

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:02 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:RPK does not stick with any breed standards. What I noticed at the end of that video was the way Galileo walked, like there was something wrong with his hip, which probably explains why he was being "lazy".

I've seen several other dogs walking out of the normal pattern in the past. If there's something wrong with him they'll likely be something wrong with the pups assuming if he is going to breed them. First the video of a pup being forced to leap off a high rock and then the video of the dogs in their crates about to be shipped the Autralia and then more garbage.

Post by **Katlin** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:23 pm

I'm watching his knees and they aren't moving as well as they should, the flexion is minimal which means the patellas are luxating (essentially a dislocated kneecap) or there could be some minor cruciate tears...I'm not sure if it's the hips but that could be an additional pain factor. He's bloody fat too which doesn't help.

It looks like they have a shepherd in there too lol

Post by **TerriHolt** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:38 pm

Convel wrote:his knees and they aren't moving as well as they should, the flexion is minimal which means the patellas are luxating (essentially a dislocated kneecap) or there could be some minor cruciate tears...I'm not sure if it's the hips but that could be an additional pain factor. He's bloody fat too which doesn't help.

does his dog's never visit a vet?

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