Kenosha?

Info about scams and false advertisements relating to the sale of Tamaskan Dogs (or fake "Tamaskans").
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winterblitz
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Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:02 am

As far as I can track by documentation I believe Right Puppy is technically breeding from the same European stock as Tarheel. They simply kept a few more of the produced pups to be bread with Rightpuppy Tumble. I did a lot of research regarding genetics while I was originally looking into breeds and breeders, etc. I am doing some lines work for fun now and have been researching the Tamaskan parent stock after they "closed the lines", so to say. Everything seems pretty legitimate down to the medical records (vets are pretty open about stuff like that for potential buyers). All of Right Puppy's breeding stock have been vet checked and scored, just like everyone else's animals, etc (it's just that the various registries seems so at odds these days that nobody seems to believe anyone). Oh well...
Anyway, I'm just trying to fit in Right Puppy Tumble's original breeder (don't care if they are registered with anybody or not). I have the names of his dame and sire, I'm just trying to figure out where they are out of. Anybody know? I'm asking this as a curiosity... not as an opening to bash Right Puppy. If anyone knows any leads it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Nino » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:16 am

As far as I know Tumble is NOT a tamaskan, and his lines were falsified.
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:58 am

winterblitz wrote:As far as I can track by documentation I believe Right Puppy is technically breeding from the same European stock as Tarheel.
This is not correct. Tarheel has 100% legitimate Tamaskan bloodlines. RightPuppy obtained 3 genuine Tamaskan Dogs: Moose and Tasha / Tundra. (Moose and Tasha are carriers of epilepsy, which is why he falsified their pedigrees to say they are of different European bloodlines.) As of now, he only has Tundra left.
winterblitz wrote:They simply kept a few more of the produced pups to be bread with Rightpuppy Tumble.
Keep in mind, any puppy born of Tasha X Moose or Tundra X Moose is likely to be a carrier of epilepsy, which is probably why he introduced "Tumble" into his bloodlines. Tumble is not a Tamaskan; though RPK claims he is a Utonagan, his former employee explained that he just obtained Tumble as a crossbreed... so IF you can find any info about his background / pedigree / breeder (if it exists) that would be a start. IF he were a Utonagan, it shouldn't be too hard to get that information but the fact that he gave Tumble a fake Tamaskan pedigree instead, makes it very clear to me that there was no actual pedigree to begin with... he's probably just a "rescue" dog that he introduced into his breeding program, like the other recent additions.
winterblitz wrote:I did a lot of research regarding genetics while I was originally looking into breeds and breeders, etc. I am doing some lines work for fun now and have been researching the Tamaskan parent stock after they "closed the lines", so to say. Everything seems pretty legitimate down to the medical records (vets are pretty open about stuff like that for potential buyers). All of Right Puppy's breeding stock have been vet checked and scored, just like everyone else's animals, etc
That's great to hear! It's good that you are taking an active interest in the genetics and Tamaskan ancestry. I presume you have copies of the official OFA / PennHIP Hip Score certificates for Tala's parents? As well as copies of her parents' DNA profiles (through MMI Genomics)? Also, copies of the Degenerative Myelopathy certificate results (via the OFA) since, as you say, all of his breeding dogs have been officially health tested, "just like ours" - I presume you have actual copies of all this documentation to support his claims. Just curious, have you had Tala DNA profiled yet for a parentage analysis? It's a fairly economical (and very simple) procedure.
winterblitz wrote:(it's just that the various registries seems so at odds these days that nobody seems to believe anyone). Oh well...
There's only one international registry: the TDR
The TBA left and are now breeding the Aatu, which is a separate breed.
winterblitz wrote:Anyway, I'm just trying to fit in Right Puppy Tumble's original breeder (don't care if they are registered with anybody or not). I have the names of his dame and sire, I'm just trying to figure out where they are out of. Anybody know? I'm asking this as a curiosity... not as an opening to bash Right Puppy. If anyone knows any leads it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
If you share the names of his sire and dam, we might be able to help track down his breeder. Last I saw, he gave Tumble the pedigree for "Apache" (Blustag River Phoenix) which is a real dog who was imported to America (but was castrated for being cryptorchid). Is anyone here still in touch with Apache's owner by the way? I wonder if she knows that her dog's pedigree is (was?) being fraudulently used?
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Blustag » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Yes I am intouch with her from time to time to keep up todate with how he is doing. She is not intouch with Karen (Icewind Puppy Farm) anymore since obtaining Apache. I will drop her a line today but I doubt she will know about Kevin using her dogs pedigree.

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Here are some links to the fake pedigrees he was using:





As well as visual comparison of Tumble vs Apache...


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Re: Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:35 pm

Tumble's parents are:
Wet Snow Falling at Kenosha and Kodiak at Kenosha

I will admit (as you probably guessed) that I purchased Tala from Right Puppy Kennel. It was a wonderful experiance and I honestly would do it again. My husband and I were looking for an interesting breed of dog as our first puppy and we honestly could not pass up Kevin's helpful nature, the fact that he has a huge and fantastic facility which he and his daughter take a lot of pride in, and a heath garuntee that could not be beat. Also, like I said in my introduction post, I was being openly harrassed by a TDR memeber breeder whenever I went on forums to try to gain helpful information about Tamaskans and breeders. It was less than helpful, especially since it was coming from a breeder who had not produced a litter since 2009 and who had no plans for a litter at that time. Kevin's open and honest attitude with me made me feel comfortable that I was getting a good sound puppy for a campanion. I really am not interested in whether Tala is full breed or not by anyone's standards, because she is just what we needed; it doesn't matter to me because most of her relatives so far come from Tamaskan stock (wheather registered or not). I suppose that if somebody breeds two labradors even if they aren't registered, you still call their puppies labs. I am really interested in tracking down her lines for scrapbooking purposes (and because it is pretty neat to be able to do so). I don't plan to show or breed, and once she gets a little older we will most likely have the genetics test done. So you won't have to worry about little Tala muddying up "the lines" at all. :) I know it's pretty much a sin to say on this forum that I got my dog from Right Puppy Kennel; but it's really nothing that I am ashamed about. Being that she is not one of the wolf hybrid mixes and her colors, markings, stance and temperment all conform the the Tamaskan pictorial standard (and because all of the parent, grandparent, so on and so forth stock has been Tamaskan), I'm going to call her Tamaskan because it is easier to explain to a passerby on the street.

Any help with where the parents of Tumble are out of would be most helpful if the name Kenosha is familiar to you. I am not here to start a turf war or anything and I'm certainly not looking for more "he forged this, I can prove that" because that's all I have gotten so far. I am simply looking for my puppy's lines as a curiosity. Thank you so much for your help!

Rahne

Re: Kenosha?

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:04 pm

It was a wonderful experiance and I honestly would do it again.
I really hope you don't as you would support a puppy mill then. Better to buy a REAL tamaskan from a TDR registered breeder.
My husband and I were looking for an interesting breed of dog as our first puppy and we honestly could not pass up Kevin's helpful nature, the fact that he has a huge and fantastic facility which he and his daughter take a lot of pride in, and a heath garuntee that could not be beat.
You mean all those concrete prisons? Dogs should be kept in the house as a part of a loving family. Health guarantee? :lol: You know how many people have gotten sick pups from him? Do you think he will be supportive if your pup gets epilepsy?
Kevin's open and honest attitude with me made me feel comfortable that I was getting a good sound puppy for a campanion.
Have you seen any of the lies he made up of TDR registered tamaskans and their breeders?
I am not here to start a turf war or anything and I'm certainly not looking for more "he forged this, I can prove that" because that's all I have gotten so far. I am simply looking for my puppy's lines as a curiosity. Thank you so much for your help!
I hope someone can help you with that.. I'm shocked that some people can be so ignorant when they buy a pup from him, sorry.

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:07 pm

Honestly if I had even the slightest doubt about the experience that I would let you know. I'm sure that if Kevin was a bad puppy mill breeder he would have been shut down by now (there has been a lot of police enforcement for animal mistreatment lately in the US). He just seems to be breeding for the family pet, not the champion breeder. I really admire everyone else's champion lines and the status it brings; but it's just not what we were looking for. The affordable family pet is what I was interested in. There have been many people saying that "his dogs are mistreated, abused, medically unhealthy, and kept in poor conditions; but it definitely not apparent from all of my research. If there was any truth to it even on a singular level, I would not have purchased from him. All of his puppies are placed in loving homes; he even did a background check on me and my husband to ensure that we would be a good fit for one of his dogs. The puppies are kept in a loving and very nice facility (in home and separate from the adults). The facilities are not concrete prisons. He has 25 wooded and medowed acres fenced in specifically for the Tamaskans to run in for exercise and there is even a new structure under construction with even larger, but also still well-equipped, facilities. He seems to be breeding for a different market of people, the ones who want a nice affordable house pet. I am fine with it as long as the dogs are sound and healthy (I have spoken with his vet and even had my vet do a background check on his... everything checks out and is certified), the facilities well maintained (and in this case even expanded, documented, and managed by a hired staff), the puppies are brought up in an environment that is good (both in health, comfort, safety, and social well being) and the puppies are placed in loving homes with capable people (buyers sign up on a waiting list once a deposit is made the same as everyone else so it's not a "by word alone agreement" to purchase). Perhaps I was simply fishing the market for a loving, kindly temperamental, affordable family dog (also non-drooling... that was very important to my husband :lol: ) than for top of the line breeding stock. My apologies, but we wanted a pet companion and timing was everything. We wanted the puppy to be able to grow up around our house during the good weather so it was comfortable and well trained during the harsher winter. We had a tough enough time trying to potty train outside in Minnesota's February. If I had even a slightly bad experience, I honestly would tell you.

I did look into a TDR breeder first in the states and he was rude and offensive to me just when I was looking for information. This was even before I was actively looking into choosing a breeder; it made me want nothing to do with him. Plus there were no puppies available anyway. Why wait for anything which is currently unplanned and is 1 1/2 times more expensive from a person who is just mean? Especially when you just want a loving pet as an addition to your family. I just wanted a companion capable of running with me and who wanted to be outside as much as I do.

I wish it had not come down to this because honestly I was just hoping to benefit from your wonderful forum and it's stories, ideas, tips, and photos. I am not looking for any kind of acceptance from TDR or NTCA, or even TCA (I know you don't recognize them and I don't care :roll: )... I was simply looking for anyone who knows some information on "Kenosha" so I can draw up a little history on my own puppy. All I am looking for is a connection to find a photo of Tumble's Dame and Sire for my scrapbook. I don't care if the papers were falsified... what's done is done. I just want a picture of Tala's paternal grandparents to put in a photo album. :(

Thank you to the people who are able to look past my dog's genetics and view me as a fellow a dog lover.

Rahne

Re: Kenosha?

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:42 pm

winterblitz wrote:I'm sure that if Kevin was a bad puppy mill breeder he would have been shut down by now (there has been a lot of police enforcement for animal mistreatment lately in the US).
If I would tie my female tamaskan up on a rope and put in the garden, give her a bowl of water and food and some shelther and just keep her there for the rest of her life.. Have her give birth every season from six months old untill she dies... Would that make me a good dog owner/breeder?? I would give her the basic care that the law requires so no one can stop me!
I am fine with it as long as the dogs are sound and healthy (I have spoken with his vet and even had my vet do a background check on his... everything checks out and is certified)
Just because a vet takes a 5 minute look at a dog doesn't make it healthy. There are genetic, hereditary diseases that need to be looked at by specialists. Hip Dysplasia, PRA and Degenerative Myelopathy for example.. Even if your pup now looks healthy it can still develop these diseases. Epilepsy will show around 2 years of age, Degenerative Myelopathy at 8 years or older.
I did look into a TDR breeder first in the states and he was rude and offensive to me just when I was looking for information. This was even before I was actively looking into choosing a breeder; it made me want nothing to do with him. Plus there were no puppies available anyway. Why wait for anything which is currently unplanned and is 1 1/2 times more expensive from a person who is just mean? Especially when you just want a loving pet as an addition to your family. I just wanted a companion capable of running with me and who wanted to be outside as much as I do.
I would wait 2 years if that would ensure I would get a healthy pup, raised by loving breeders who are not in it for the money! My dogs are also loving pets, just as all Tamaskans are on this forum.

Everyone is welcome on this forum, we have more RPK owners on here and also Aatu owners. I'm just worried about the way you think Kevin is such a great breeder :roll:

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:38 pm

I did not claim to think that he is a great breeder, only I that he treated me and my puppy well and that I had a good experiance. I think that if he was breeding to show or for pure genetics that he is doing it the wrong way because he did essentially cut off his ties to fresh stock, but that does not mean that his animals should be thought of as inferior pets because they came from him. I understand that a few of his dogs are probably not show or breed quality to your standards without going through extensive research and testing. My puppy was tested by his vet and by my own vet for medical soundness and health. Even my vet praised not only her excellent health, but also her ability to be handled well. He said that it was obvious she had been brought up in a home where she was actively worked with from a young age.

I simply meant to say that my experiance was good; not everyone's may have been, but mine was and I have a wonderful puppy for it. I video chatted with him and Danielle every night and was able to physically see my puppy in his care and how he and his daughter treated, handled, worked with, and and cared for her. He was also available to me always when I had questions (as was his daughter, manager, and vet). Have you visited his kennel? I doubt that you have, given the distance, I do not blame you it's a long ways to go to see someone who you discount as a bad breeder. However, I do not like that you would discount me personally because I had a bad experiance with a TDR breeder and a good experiance with Right Puppy.

I also do not like the personal attacks because you are doing exactly what that breeder did to me. It is unwelcoming and I was to understand, after reading the rules of this forum, that it was not tolerated. I went with what was available to me and my budget. I do not have thousands of dollars to spend and years to wait on a dog that could ultimately end up getting confused for a coyote here and shot! We are obviously taking every precaution so that that does not happen; introducing her to people around the neighborhoods, purchasing a bright orange collar so she is visible, and eventually getting her a safety vest for more visibility while we are out at the farm and in the woods. I love my dog and just because you think she is not worth it doesn't make her any less precious to me and I would appreciate it if the personal attacks stopped. This is exactly what the TDR breeder was doing to me and it's frustrating. Rahne, you have not made me feel welcome because you have essentially told me that what I experianced was wrong. Shame on you!

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Katlin » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:00 pm

winterblitz wrote:I video chatted with him and Danielle every night and was able to physically see my puppy in his care and how he and his daughter treated, handled, worked with, and and cared for her. He was also available to me always when I had questions (as was his daughter, manager, and vet).
He did the same thing for me, except he showed me a DYING shiba inu puppy :evil: I used to be like you, thinking he was kind and generous. Boy was I wrong. If you have had a good experience that's fine and no one is doubting your common sense however what I'm saying (and what I get from Rahne) is that you need to be SUPER careful and don't trust him if you have even the smallest feeling of doubt. TBH I think your perspective of RPK is a bit off....PM me if you'd like to talk or...CLICK HERE to read a bit more about him :roll: :?

I made the mistake of putting a deposit down, but didn't get the puppy (my own problems at home). When I asked for it back he offered me Tundra. I accepted so that deposit money ($400) was to be for her shipping and spay. Now all of a sudden it's gone from 140 -> 340 -> 450 -> now over 600 and he still won't give me back my money.

Just be super careful, that's all I'm saying. If I wasn't so concerned about Tundra I'd call the whole thing off.
Being that she is not one of the wolf hybrid mixes and her colors, markings, stance and temperment all conform the the Tamaskan pictorial standard (and because all of the parent, grandparent, so on and so forth stock has been Tamaskan)
Not really....Take a look at the pictorial standard again. The mask...the nose...(just my opinion she's very pretty though)
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:04 pm

winterblitz wrote:Rahne, you have not made me feel welcome because you have essentially told me that what I experianced was wrong. Shame on you!
Rahne, like you, is perfectly entitled to voice her opinion here. And, for that matter, I personally agree with her. You are welcome to stay and post here, but you must be respectful towards other's opinions, as we are respectful of yours and allow you to say your piece, even if we don't necessarily agree. IF you construe these comments as a personal attack, then you are completely misunderstanding the point. Everyone here cares VERY MUCH about the BREED and ethical / responsible breeding, etc. So having someone support and outright promote a breeder who practices unethical / disreputable breeding methods is bound to stir some resentment. However, you are entitled to your opinion and at least you made the effort to come here and learn...

However, I notice you ignored my comment about the health testing - do you or do you not have copies of the official documentation? As Rahne said, DM / PRA / HD etc are VERY SERIOUS genetic diseases that ARE present in some bloodlines - you can't tell just from "looking at a dog" (lol) and nor can any vet. It requires specialist testing by experts - and entails DNA tests, etc. ALL Tamaskan breeding stock MUST undergo these basic health tests BEFORE they are allowed to breed, to ensure the pups will be 100% healthy.

As for your questions about "Kenosha" - I have never heard of them, but (like "Mountain Trail") it could be an invented kennel. Have you asked Kevin for their contact info? Maybe he can provide it for you directly, after all, if he bought Tumble from a breeder, he would be able to put you in contact with them and direct you to their website, etc. That might be the best solution for now because a quick google search hasn't produced any results for that kennel and I have never heard of them. What state are they from? :)
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:20 pm

I did not claim to think that he is a great breeder, only I that he treated me and my puppy well and that I had a good experiance.
I'm happy you had a good experience and that you were treated well. A lot of people didn't..
I think that if he was breeding to show or for pure genetics that he is doing it the wrong way because he did essentially cut off his ties to fresh stock, but that does not mean that his animals should be thought of as inferior pets because they came from him.
He is breeding for the money which is a wrong reason. He should breed for health, temperament and breedtype. He doesn't care for health otherwise he wouldn't have used Moose for breeding after he produced an epileptic pup.
I understand that a few of his dogs are probably not show or breed quality to your standards without going through extensive research and testing. My puppy was tested by his vet and by my own vet for medical soundness and health. Even my vet praised not only her excellent health, but also her ability to be handled well. He said that it was obvious she had been brought up in a home where she was actively worked with from a young age.
It doesn't matter if his dogs are not all show or breeding quality but they should be healthy! Have you ever heard of Hip Dysplasia, Epilepsy, Degenerative Myelopathie, Dwarfism, PRA, Addisons etc.??
I simply meant to say that my experiance was good; not everyone's may have been, but mine was and I have a wonderful puppy for it. I video chatted with him and Danielle every night and was able to physically see my puppy in his care and how he and his daughter treated, handled, worked with, and and cared for her. He was also available to me always when I had questions (as was his daughter, manager, and vet). Have you visited his kennel? I doubt that you have, given the distance, I do not blame you it's a long ways to go to see someone who you discount as a bad breeder. However, I do not like that you would discount me personally because I had a bad experiance with a TDR breeder and a good experiance with Right Puppy.
No I havn't visited his kennel but I've seen enough pictures and videos that tell me he runs a puppy mill!
I also do not like the personal attacks because you are doing exactly what that breeder did to me. It is unwelcoming and I was to understand, after reading the rules of this forum, that it was not tolerated.

These are not personal attacks to you, I'm only trying to point out to you that Kevin isn't who you think he is.
I love my dog and just because you think she is not worth it doesn't make her any less precious to me and I would appreciate it if the personal attacks stopped. This is exactly what the TDR breeder was doing to me and it's frustrating. Rahne, you have not made me feel welcome because you have essentially told me that what I experianced was wrong. Shame on you!
Have I said anything bad about your pup? I'm sure she is a great puppy, I just think she comes from a very bad breeder. I'm sorry if I do not make you feel welcome, that is not my intention. I want you to see Kevin for who he really is and I suggest you do better research next time before buying a pup. I really hope your pup will stay healthy and happy.

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:56 pm

You are correct. I aopologize for my out burst. I was feeling frustrated and it was wrong of me to vent on the forum. I'm aparently no better than that guy who was harrassing me before :lol: .

I aplogized for missing you heath records comment. I have been doing most of this chatting from my phone, which is also my computer, and I must have scrolled past it (old Droid :roll: ). I did receive the copies of the various health scores and tests from Tala's sire and dame and I figured that when Tala was older and out of her big growth spurt, that we would take the time to have her done as well. I will have to look and see if I still have the copies at home somewhere. We have been in the process of remodeling the house and a lot of files have been boxed up and stored in the mean time in the loft. We basically just checked over the results back in January and made sure they were okay before proceeding. We looked into getting the tests done earlier, and like you said, they are quite extensive and also expensive to do. We are not quite so worried though because like I said, Tala will not be bred and the preliminary blood work that our vet did when we went in looked okay so far to him.

I tried doing the internet searches on the names I was given. I was told that Tumble is not from the states but rather of European (German, I think) origins. That was why I joined this forum. I will admit that Kevin has been less than helpful in this department, which obviously made me worried. It's the first thing I've ever been ignored on, but I did only ask last night on Facebook chat. We mistakenly took him at his word on his origins since the vet report looked good. I have not heard of "Mountain Trail" before so I don't know if there is a connection. Thank you for your help.

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:53 pm

winterblitz wrote:You are correct. I aopologize for my out burst. I was feeling frustrated and it was wrong of me to vent on the forum. I'm aparently no better than that guy who was harrassing me before :lol: .
No problem... can you perhaps elaborate on the "harassment" you felt? Because I got a conflicting account and maybe you can help to shed some light on the situation.

"the only contact I ever had with her was after she got her puppy, I tried to welcome her and invite her to the USA show. She promptly told me not to contact her or her husband. I tried to warn her about getting her dog tested. I determined from her post on facebook that RPK shipped her pup via air at 5.5 weeks old. I told her that it was illegal to ship a puppy that young."

Again, maybe you felt like this was a personal attack and, please don't take offense to this, but IF Tala was shipped at only 5.5 weeks old, then yes it probably was illegal (according to airline regulations) and most states stipulate pups must be at least 6 weeks old. Of course, this is still far too young, the minimum allowed age limit at which pups can go to new homes (according to TDR rules) is 8 weeks old. Of course, this is NOT your fault... but reputable breeders wait until at least 8 - 10 weeks old before sending pups to their new homes. I think we have a topic somewhere here on the forum about why it's so important to wait, I'll have a dig around later. In the meantime, there is lots of info on google about why it's so important for pups to spend those early weeks socializing with their siblings / mother. :)

The part about getting Tala tested probably relates to the recent Brucellosis health scare as a few people (and dogs) have tested positive. Anyway, I'm sure the comment was made out of concern, rather than "harassment" but I can see how it could be interpreted as an "attack" - again, we are all passionate about the breed and if rumors start spreading about "unhealthy TAMASKAN puppies infecting people with Brucellosis" it reflects badly on the breed as a whole... so that's why everyone is very concerned. The fact you had her tested and the result came back negative is a huge relief and good news all round.
winterblitz wrote:I aplogized for missing you heath records comment. I have been doing most of this chatting from my phone, which is also my computer, and I must have scrolled past it (old Droid :roll: ). I did receive the copies of the various health scores and tests from Tala's sire and dame and I figured that when Tala was older and out of her big growth spurt, that we would take the time to have her done as well. I will have to look and see if I still have the copies at home somewhere. We have been in the process of remodeling the house and a lot of files have been boxed up and stored in the mean time in the loft. We basically just checked over the results back in January and made sure they were okay before proceeding.
No worries - little screens can be fiddly and difficult to navigate... :)
And no rush with the copies, as long as you got them and still have them, that's the main thing... once you find them again, you can easily contact MMI Genomics and the OFA yourself just to find out if they are legitimate. I did that when I was given a copy of Tasha's OFA hip certificate and the OFA told me that the record had been removed from their database as he'd falsified her birth-date (so she was hip scored too early, which means the result is not accurate, since pups must be at least 12 months old before hip scoring and she was already pregnant). Hopefully all your certificates will turn out to be genuine (not photoshopped, etc) so you can be sure that the results are accurate and that Tala will remain healthy throughout her life. Unfortunately there isn't yet a genetic test that exists to detect epilepsy carriers or sufferers but thankfully DM can be tested for and it's a pretty cheap test, very simple (like the DNA profile). Of course if both Tala's sire and dam tested clear for DM then that means that Tala is "Clear by Parentage" - it's easy to check with the OFA (by email) if you have their OFA numbers (on the copies of the certificates) or you can check the public database: http://www.offa.org
winterblitz wrote:We looked into getting the tests done earlier, and like you said, they are quite extensive and also expensive to do. We are not quite so worried though because like I said, Tala will not be bred and the preliminary blood work that our vet did when we went in looked okay so far to him.
Well, the cost isn't too high all things considered (each test costs under $100) BUT if her parents are clear for DM and have good hip scores (by OFA or PennHIP) then you don't need to worry too much, especially as you don't plan to breed. The only case for DM testing would be if one or both of her parents were carriers of DM. Prelim blood-work will only show active infections (depending on white / red blood-cell counts) but that's not really an indicator of genetic health, more like: if your pup has been sick for a long time / not eating, you can determine probable cause by examining the different blood ratios. Unless you mean the SNAP test for heartworm disease, ehrlichiosis, Lyme disease and anaplasmosis... again these are environmental / physical diseases (caused by parasites, etc), not genetic. Fecal test can check for Giardia and Coccidia. However, none of these are the "health tests" required of breeding dogs (specifically pertaining to genetic suitability) though Brucellosis is an important STD to test for in stud dogs.
winterblitz wrote:I tried doing the internet searches on the names I was given. I was told that Tumble is not from the states but rather of European (German, I think) origins. That was why I joined this forum. I will admit that Kevin has been less than helpful in this department, which obviously made me worried. It's the first thing I've ever been ignored on, but I did only ask last night on Facebook chat. We mistakenly took him at his word on his origins since the vet report looked good. I have not heard of "Mountain Trail" before so I don't know if there is a connection. Thank you for your help.
If he is from Germany then no doubt Kevin will have their email info and website address, after all, he had to find them online to contact them in the first place... right? :)

That being said, I don't know of any Utonagan breeders in Germany at all - they really aren't common (or popular / known) anywhere apart from the UK. In Germany there are plenty of Saarloos and Czech Vlčák breeders but probably no Utonagan breeders. And Tumble is definitely not from any Tamaskan bloodlines. Actually, Kenosha is a city in Wisconsin so it's possible that he got Tumble from a Wisconsin breeder and just used that name, kinda like how he gave the pedigree name "Mountain Trail" to the wolfdogs from "Wolf Track Acres" - another breeding kennel in NC. Hmmm on closer inspection Tumble actually looks a lot like the Malamute / wolfdog crosses from Chaparral K-9 in Ohio, but this is just pure speculation.

EDIT: I split this topic from Moonstone into it's own topic, since it's about "Kenosha" ;)
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by sky » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:59 pm

in an email dated June 2, 2008 when asked where tumble came from Kevin commented: "we had to import Tumble from Finland"

in an email dated September 2010 when he disagreed about a facebook post i made about my epileptic dog related to his dog he commented: "no one cares that your dogs has issues"... "Since you do not know the parents of xxxx, how can you know the related dogs. Who the fuck do you think that you are? the self proclaimed Tamaskan expert? Go fuck yourself."

very nice person wouldn't you say. he has never offered once to take any monitary responsibility for Juneau's epilepsy. i just wish to say i hope you have puppy insurance for any unexpected issues.

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Katlin » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:22 am

Wow, that's insane! I know he's sent some rude e-mails but that's...disgusting. He told ME that Tumble was a utonagan ( :lol: ) that he "imported". TBH he looks like a Mal X
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by winterblitz » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:32 am

Thank you very much for looking. I did see the name from Wisconsin and I am still tracing that, however so far it seems unlikely. I will keep you posted on anything that I find.

I had been trolling lots of various tamaskan interest websites and forums prior to the message that you refered to earlier. You never know who you are talking to on the internet and it just so happens that I had been "listening in" and asking questions on a few threads and most conversations that he was involved in turned quite pointed and rude. Imagine someone new to the breed, and still doing research, coming across these conversation and seeing that this is how a TDR Member, not to mention a breeder at that, is representing his organization. Rather than taking the higher road and explaining why his genetics, ethics, and kennel was a better choice; he simply chose to undermine his obvious competition. It was his talking and references that originally led me to look into Right Puppy and I found a seemingly better (by photos, references, and helpfulness) person to deal with. The only thing that I could gather from your breeder through these sites is that he was scared of some competiton down the road and a mean person to deal with; when obviously, if his practices were better he shouldn't have been presenting himself, his facilities, or his founding organization in that manner. I'm sure he's a great guy with fine breeding ethics and dogs; but what else is somone who has never heard of a Tamaskan going to think? We come from a place where dealing animals over seas can be a very sketchy business, and this breeder was pretty much the only legitimate link to your organization. I even had my family look into "possible breeders" for another view point and they said he seemed very "iffy". My friend who breeds and shows pomeranians with the AKC said that he didn't know what to say because nobody really looked legitimate because Tamaskans are not recognized yet in show. I'm just saying that he didn't paint a very good picture to start off with. When he messaged me on Facebook all I had to say to him was that I was not interested in what he was offereing and not to have him contact me or my husband again. He then continued to tell me that that Tala's dame is not a real Tamaskan (once again, didn't care) and to continue talking like he had on those forums a year ago. I replied that I was not interested again and said that we obviously had mutual differences that neither of us would get over. So I told him good bye and blocked him from my profile. Like I said (and like I told him) I'm sure he's a fine breeder with wonderful standards and stock, but we just never saw it.

As for Tala being shipped to us, you were misinformed. She was shipped 3 days prior to her 8 week date. And as I told your breeder, if the airlines had a problem with that, I'm sure they would have declined the service. Our puppy was the first puppy of that litter to go to it's new home. She was being shipped on that day rather than the weekend because there was going to be a large system of very bad and very cold weather moving down into the States for the next week and a half which would linger and make it so she wouldn't be shipped until mid-March. We wanted her here because she was ready, heathly, eating solid food for quite a while, and because we requested it. I'm not sure where you were getting your information from; I just wanted to set the record straight.

You have been very helpful with all of your information regarding the other breeds to look into. Thank you very much!

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Re: Kenosha?

Post by Tarheel » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:16 am

(From Yelp.com) I was very troubled by the breeders from other kennels, particularly Tarheel Tamaskans, whom it seems put more time and effort into slenderizing their competition on free web forums than actually breeding a healthy litter.
As far as I can track by documentation I believe Right Puppy is technically breeding from the same European stock as Tarheel.
I don't know what documentation you have tracked down, I am interested to know what and where you have any pedigree information on my dogs, you have never asked me for it. I can assure you, I have different lines than Kevin, more diverse as well. My lines come from J&J USA, Blustag UK, Muensterland Germany, and Alba Scotland. All registered with the TDR. I may very well have the most diverse Tamaskans in the USA.
Also, like I said in my introduction post, I was being openly harassed by a TDR member breeder whenever I went on forums to try to gain helpful information about Tamaskans and breeders. It was less than helpful, especially since it was coming from a breeder who had not produced a litter since 2009 and who had no plans for a litter at that time

I did look into a TDR breeder first in the states and he was rude and offensive to me just when I was looking for information. This was even before I was actively looking into choosing a breeder; it made me want nothing to do with him…Why wait for anything which is currently unplanned and is 1 1/2 times more expensive from a person who is just mean? Especially when you just want a loving pet as an addition to your family.

However, I do not like that you would discount me personally because I had a bad experience with a TDR breeder and a good experience with Right Puppy.
I also do not like the personal attacks because you are doing exactly what that breeder did to me.

You are correct. I apologize for my outburst. I was feeling frustrated and it was wrong of me to vent on the forum. I'm apparently no better than that guy who was harassing me before
Amanda,
I am that guy you keep referring to. Let me start by saying that I am not attacking you in any way, but defending my good name as a Tamaskan owner, Breeder, TDR Committee Member, NTCA President, and a moderator on this forum. (I am not blowing my own horn, just stating that I am somewhat known and respected within the Tamaskan Dog Breed).

I do not recall ever speaking to you, or you contacting me at anytime through my Tarheel website, or my personal email. I do recall sending you a friend request on Facebook after I learned you were getting a RPK Tamaskan Wolfdog. As I recall, your first words to me was telling me not to contact you or your husband as you wanted nothing to do with me. My reply was that I was simply trying to contact you and invite you to a Tamaskan Dog show held by the National Tamaskan Club of America (NTCA). We conversed back and forth a bit as I was trying to warn you to make sure your vet would check your puppy thoroughly. I do remember at one point that I informed you that RPK has been known to falsify records. Shortly after I confirmed your puppies age at the time of shipping, and it is illegal to ship puppies via commercial air under 8 weeks old you blocked me from further communication. If you go to an airline website, it clearly spells out the minimum age to ship a dog. I have shipped dogs, but if you don't believe me check for yourself or ask me to send you a link.

I have never sold a puppy for 1 ½ times the price of a RPK Tamaskan Wolfdog. ($1000 for rpk). Yes, my dogs in 2009 were more expensive, but that is because I health test, provide proper puppy care, Micro-chip, 3 generation pedigree, provide puppy growth charts, puppy pictures, all necessary shots I registered with a real registry (TDR) and I don't create my own registration papers form an organization I made up to sound legit. … the list goes on. I guarantee my puppies with a simple clause. I will take any puppy I breed back, no questions asked, no excuses. I do not need a long fancy legal mumbo jumbo puppy guarantee that requires you to feed only one kind of food and buy his vitamins, to where the guarantee is void if you don’t follow his feeding guide lines. Many of my puppy owners can attest to this as they are on this forum and I am in contact with them regularly.

I may have spoken my mind on certain forums about RPK or defended myself, but if you look closely at my posts, you will find that I only speak the truth for what I know. I have been to the RPK facility, it is a business to sell dogs for profit, plain and simple, I do not know if you have ever actually been inside the kennel and observed the amount of dogs, but there are seriously too many dogs for a couple people to manage even with some part time help. Did you see 75 plus breeding dogs, not including the puppies? Puppies are supposed to be with their mother until 8 weeks old, and not raised in the house while the mother is in a cage. Puppies should never be removed from their mother. RPK’s former business manager communicates with many people on this forum and has confirmed the condition of this kennel, the dogs, and the health concerns over his breeding animals. She may even know the whereabouts of Tumbles parentage. I can ask her if you like.

I apologize if you felt that I was rude and mean in the past. I may come across very forward but I never intend to hurt anyone’s feelings or tarnish my reputation. I do not recall any personal attacks. If you felt that I attacked you in anyway, I am sorry for that as well. Since We are clearing the air, I was offended from you previous posts where you continually called me out, to include the Yelp.com comment. Forgive and forget. I hold no grudges.
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by blufawn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:50 pm

I am sorry that you are finding out 'the hard way' that your pups dam is most likely a cross out of rescue and that your pup is technically only half Tam. I am sure if you question Kevin about this a bit more you will see the side of him that we all know.
I am also very glad to hear that you dont care about your pup not being a Tamaskan, she is still lovely anyway, your looking at it the right way.
I hope you are not put off visiting our forum, although this subject makes some people a bit passionate, we welcome everyone here....
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Re: Kenosha?

Post by kendrrat » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:06 pm

Woo, i feel like i walked into the room a bit late here but i suppose i can at my two bits anyways.

first off, im sorry this thread his gone more towards the subject of RPK and is not so focused on the origins of your dog. But i think that is mostly because A) kevin is known to forge pedigrees so it could all be a mystery and B) RPK is a very passionate subject within the tamaskan community, whichever "side" youre on.

i do not personally know anything about your sweet puppy's lines, but knowing kevin like i do, if you cant find the information online, and if he is HESITATING or RESISTING to give you this info in ANY way, that is almost always a sure sign that he is lying about it. im sorry, thats probably not what you want to hear, and i truly hope thats not the case, but more times than i can count thats exactly whats going on :(

even though your Tala was breed by RPK there is NO WAY anyone on this forum could EVER hold anything against her. whatever might be said about kevin and RPK is in no way a reflection on your baby. all of us here on the forum are, of course, first and foremost dog lovers. and no matter where a dog comes from or who its breed by, no one could ever think ill of it. we love and accept all dogs here.

youre lucky to have had such a good experience with kevin, and we're all glad that you are one of the people who has walked away from him un-harassed. unfortunately, situations like yours are extremely rare! sometimes we hear about people who have had pleasant dealings with kevin, people who have seen his facilities, seen his dogs, talked to him nicely, etc. in my opinion, i truly believe kevin treats people this kindly (when he can) to try and gain the kind of support that you are showing now. does that make sense? like... hes almost using certain customers that completely buy into him and will go speak his praise, ya know? im not trying to insult you in any way, so please dont take this wrong. i just think that if you started doing anything at all that kevin didnt like (asking too many questions, delving too deep etc) he might start to show his true colors, because until now hes only been showing you what he WANTS you to see so you can tell that to other people... i hope that made sense :roll: and i think this because we've actually seen him do this to lots of his former/potential costumers.

a word about the health guarantee: i hope you read it thoroughly, and i wonder if you've compared it to the health guarantees of other accredited dog breeders? (not just tamaskan breeders, any dog breeder as long as they are reputable) i ask because there are some pretty big red flags in the guarantee that really arent very good at all... if you look closely, the guarantee is actually designed to be void for any number of ridiculous reasons... just be careful and read it very closely.

background checks: i am SUPER surprised that kevin did a background check on you!! im surprised because he told me personally that he refused, plain and simple, to do any sort of background check AT ALL on ANY of his dogs. his reason: when i sell THIS many dogs i dont have the TIME to do a background check on all of them, and even if i did call and talk to the potential owners- it wouldnt matter! they could just be lying or something. so why bother? im not going to waste my time. (i have the actualy converstaion saved if youd like to see it) so you might be one of the only times hes ever done that... i wonder why...? weird.

you keep mentioning that you were looking for a house pet, not a show quality dog. well ALL the TDR registered dogs are house pets. none of the TDR breeders breed their dogs with show quality conformation in mind, nothing like that. they all breed for the health and standard of the breed. and really, all breeders should breed this way. i mean, they shouldnt say "oh well im not going to care about health or anything like that cuz its just gonna be a house pet" ya know?

im sorry your first experience with a TDR breeder was not a positive one. i really wish that things had gone different and that you had maybe tried again with a different breeder or something, anything else. we hear it all the time that people flock to RPK because its cheaper (not by much now actually) and because its faster. but all too often we also hear about these same people regretting their decision to go with the quick fix because they end up losing their money or getting sick pets or even pets that die and they are helpless because of the clever health guarantee does not cover them. its so so sad. so try to read our passion against RPK as concern for you, concern for your pet. we do not live to hate this man, we simply live to love our pets and love the breed and we want to stop anyone who wishes to do harm by them.

WOW, sorry this was so lengthy! :shock: again, sorry i couldnt help with the origins of your Tala, i wish you the best of luck there!

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