Tamaskan vs. Northern Inuit / Clarification Please

[homeless007]

Dear Friends
There is so much conflicting information about these 2 breeds. Can anybody kindly explain me if these dogs are identical? Or are these 2 different breeds, however similar? Any history, feedback greatly appreciated. A friend insists the Northern Inuit is now the Tamaskan breed, as simple name change?? What beautiful animals!
Thank you! Michael

[AZDehlin]

They are two different breeds. A few Northern Inuit were used in the making of the breed I believe. Tamaskan have much stricter health testing procedures and only come in three colors where Northern Inuits have a lot wider rage. As for temperament similarities you will have to have someone else answer that as I have never met a Northern Inuit. I am sure someone else can give you a lot more examples of how different these breeds are.

[Misaya]

You might find this helpful

http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/history

[homeless007]

Thank you so far. Hope we get some more....

[Tiantai]

I've only met one Northern Inuit so I can only tell you based on that one that compare to the Tamaskan breed, the former looks a lot less wolf-like and more husky and in some case a bit German Shepherd. Also, some Northern Inuit dogs still have blue eyes which is not allowed in the Tamaskan. The temperaments may vary from one individual to another, not necessary based on the different breeds in the gene pool but rather that every individual has a different personality. To summarize it all, the Northern Inuit who were created by breeding Siberian Huskies, Alaskan Malamutes, and Germans Shepherds, and five northern mutts of unknown breed heritage (in my opinion some MIGHT have been Seppala Sleddogs* based on a photo of Buck that I saw on facebook) came first, and then the Utonagans diverged from the Northern Inuit lines, and then the Tamaskans came into the picture afterwards, differing from the former two in which the Tamaskan is limited to a strict standard. Also, Tamaskans have some traces of Finnish Racing Huskies (Lapland mutts bred primary for sled racing) in their genepool while the former two do not.

For more info please see the TDR's official website: tamaskan-dog.com

and don't forget the dash (-)!


*Side notes: Sepala sleddogs are a working breed that shares a common ancestry, the Chukchi dogs, with the Standard Siberian Husky but later on diverged into a line bred strictly for working and sled-racing and not for appearance so some spotty pied-bald coats still exist in the Sepala Sleddogs while Huskies are more limited to a standard appearance. Also in terms of temperaments, Sepalas are more serious-minded and less free-spirited than the standard Siberian Huskies and some behave more like German Shepherds as a result of this divergence. I know one engineer with a Sepala for a guard dog in Mississauga near a Chinese shopping centre.

[wolf91]

What are the differences between the Tamaskan dog and Northern Inuit dog? both derive from Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and German shepherd no?

[Nino]

Tamaskans also include other than the above mentioned, also the standard is a bit different (different colors and coat types are allowed, the Tamaskan being narrower than the NI)
Another big difference is also the area where the dogs are found, the NI is almost only found in UK while the Tamaskan is found in quite a few countries across the world

[Vroni]

Dear guys,
in an article in Germany they said that Tamaskans are playing in Game of Thrones because Tamaskans are the same as the Northern Inuit...
If I am correct they are not the same and I do not know where is NI in the Tamaskan...
Can you please tell me if the NI has anything to do with the Tamaskan?

[Ryphen]

Some of the Tamaskan foundation dogs are from Northern Inuit and Utonagan lines. The Tamaskan split off from the Utonagan, which split from the Northern Inuit, iirc. All three breeds are now being developed separately, so they aren't the same thing anymore.

[Vroni]

But the most of the Tamaskan foundation dogs came from Polarspeed in Finland right? And they are not Northern Inuits.
So in my opinion there is not so much Utonagan or Northern Inuit in the Tamaskan. For example in the Pedigree there is Paloosa the grandmother which is bred from Utonagan as I know. The rest are all from Polarspeed.

[Booma]

There are the Finnish and the English lines. Finnish lines come from polar speed and the English lines from Ute, ni etc.

[Rahne]

But the most of the Tamaskan foundation dogs came from Polarspeed in Finland right? And they are not Northern Inuits.
So in my opinion there is not so much Utonagan or Northern Inuit in the Tamaskan. For example in the Pedigree there is Paloosa the grandmother which is bred from Utonagan as I know. The rest are all from Polarspeed.

Actually almost half of the original Foundation Dogs are Northern Inuit/Utonagan, and the other half is from Polar Speed.
http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/foundation-dogs/

If you look at our dogs pedigrees a lot of them can be considered 50/50... Some are fully from Polar Speed bloodlines (like Jasper from Susi x Jackal) while others are fully from Utonagan/NI bloodlines (Magu from Tumanra x Banjo).

[Vroni]

Thank you Rahne, this is what I wanted to know!

[Tiantai]

Original Tamaskan overall = Northern Inuit and Utonagans from the UK + Husky-mixes and wolfdogs from Finland I assume based on all that have learnt so far!

[Katlin]

Original Tamaskan overall = Northern Inuit and Utonagans from the UK + Husky-mixes and wolfdogs from Finland I assume based on all that have learnt so far!

Rahne already explained it

[aerowrx]

Personally I feel like the Tamaskan is the more "perfected" wolf dog. It is undeniable that there will forever be traces of wolf in the Tamaskan due to the foundation dogs and the origins of Edwina Harrison's wolf dogs. However, those Northern Inuit lines had such a small gene pool that it would run into so many genetic issues. The Utonagans were created to fix this issue, but they became too liberal and I think deviated too much from the wolf look. It is kinda like the purists vs the liberals and Tamaskan is stuck in between the two.

A lot of wolf dogs really don't look like wolves, but thanks to generations of blending we have arrived at the Tamaskan which maybe the closest we can get to a true wolf dog in terms of desired looks, health, and temperament.

I know Czech Wolf dog groups want to almost crucify Tamaskan groups due to the claims of "wolf dog without the wolf." Especially after a certain couple of breeders actively looked to outcross Tamaskans with Czech wolf dogs and raised everyone's red flags. In fact they would go out of their way just to prove that there is wolf blood in Tamaskans.

I find it interesting how, wolf dog owners stigmatize breeders who lie about their breeds being % wolf and just mix GSD and huskies together to get $$$ as a wolf hybrid. Yet on the other side of the coin are certain wannabe "Tamaskan" breeders who lie about their dogs being Tamaskan and instead mix in wolf into anything to just get the look and sell it for $$$ as Tamaskan. I guess there is a market for anything and both sides lose in the same way.

I think Tamaskan owners should be proud that wolf DNA was used in the foundation of this breed and the fact that breeders finally after so many generations have achieved the dog-like temperament in a wolf dog while all other wolf dogs breeds haven't been as successful.

[Hawthorne]

I know Czech Wolf dog groups want to almost crucify Tamaskan groups due to the claims of "wolf dog without the wolf." Especially after a certain couple of breeders actively looked to outcross Tamaskans with Czech wolf dogs and raised everyone's red flags. In fact they would go out of their way just to prove that there is wolf blood in Tamaskans.

The TDR dropped that slogan quite a while ago. Honestly, most Tam owners wanted to believe the breed founders when they said there was no wolf content in the breed. Many of us had the proverbial wool pulled over our eyes.
I personally reached out to the Czech community to learn more about their breed so as to better understand the Tamaskan. When they "found out who I was" they started to sling mud and call me names. Rather ridiculous as I wasn't there to infiltrate or sabotage anything. And I certainly wasn't there to try and get a Czech pup. No thanks. That breed is not for me.

[aerowrx]

I know Czech Wolf dog groups want to almost crucify Tamaskan groups due to the claims of "wolf dog without the wolf." Especially after a certain couple of breeders actively looked to outcross Tamaskans with Czech wolf dogs and raised everyone's red flags. In fact they would go out of their way just to prove that there is wolf blood in Tamaskans.

The TDR dropped that slogan quite a while ago. Honestly, most Tam owners wanted to believe the breed founders when they said there was no wolf content in the breed. Many of us had the proverbial wool pulled over our eyes.
I personally reached out to the Czech community to learn more about their breed so as to better understand the Tamaskan. When they "found out who I was" they started to sling mud and call me names. Rather ridiculous as I wasn't there to infiltrate or sabotage anything. And I certainly wasn't there to try and get a Czech pup. No thanks. That breed is not for me.

Well it seems Czech wolf dog owners/breeders are have very purist ideals. They don't want to allow any outcrossing/breeding of their wolf dogs with any non-wolf dogs, especially something like a Tamaskan. It's like taboo or something and they will raise pitchforks to kick that breeder or wolf dog owner out of the club/registry O_o

[Nimwey]

Indeed.
I looked up the Czech wolfdog forum, and my GAWD some hate they threw at the Tamaskan.
They were absolutely OUTRAGED that anyone would consider using their breed as an outcross for "filthy mutts"!
They were calling all Tamaskan breeders puppy mills and backyard breeders only out to get money, and yada yada yada.
True purists who don't know what they're talking about.

[Tiantai]

Uhm, which forum are you talking about?

[Tatzel]

Indeed.
I looked up the Czech wolfdog forum, and my GAWD some hate they threw at the Tamaskan.
They were absolutely OUTRAGED that anyone would consider using their breed as an outcross for "filthy mutts"!
They were calling all Tamaskan breeders puppy mills and backyard breeders only out to get money, and yada yada yada.
True purists who don't know what they're talking about.

Wow, sounds like a bunch of tight elitists douchebags.
I also think it's hilarious that they get upset over someone using their own dog for an outcross with another breed or breed in the making.
It's clearly none of their buisness what an individual decides to breed THEIR dog with. They bought that dog, it's officially theirs and those breeders just need to learn to get over themselves and their inflated ego and deal with it.

[Nimwey]

Wolfdog.org, the Czechoslovakian wolfdog forum.

Thread here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22613
They're talking about the Kaylee outcross litter. A quote here for example:

Can't believe people are involved or want to be involved in this kind of horrible practices.

Unbelieveble!!!!
It is amazing to see and hear that Kaylee van Goverwelle, as a puppy sold to Stephanie Korthout of the kennel van 't Aelse Sluske, will be used for this kind of mixes.
We are very sad about this and will have nothing to do with this.

What are the legal consequences of such (mis)behaviour in the Netherlands?

If anyone is interested in a puppy from this mating then you can contact me: XXXX

This part is revealing the real motives.
A person in need of money.
Not a breeder, that has any noble intentions for the animal itself.
I am disgusted with the action and with the breeder.

But my apologies, I guess I'm off topic now.

[Tiantai]

To be fair, obviously not ALL of the Czechoslovakian vlcak breeders are guilty of those attitudes. However, it IS unfortunate that we have those folks on that forum making such disgusting remarks which to me shows a HELL LOT more ignorance. It's not like the Czechoslovakian vlcak has never been outcrossed before. Oskari already exists in the Tamaskan breed and Bobbi the Saarloos is believe to have vlcak ancestry.

Besides, the vlcak breed is not even as old as the Saarloos, their origin is much more recent compared to the latter and much like them they have been backcrossed extensively with the German Shepherds prior to their recognition as a breed. Tamaskans are also much newer and still have a long way to go and to think those individuals with heavy egos are already causing these dramas over the breed.

[weylyn]

Bobbi the Saarloos is believe to have vlcak ancestry.

Correction here. Bobbi's pedigree is to believe that he has not really Zazi Zen as granddad. But that is a believe and there is no proof. So because there is no proof you go on his pedigree and than it is not a believe that he has CwD in there because Zazi Zen IS half a CwD

And indeed the CwD is much younger and even still considered by some as Mutts Considering this maybe can get you at a point that you can understand their reaction a bit even when you totally do not agree with them

[Tiantai]

Probably should have said "suspected" instead of believe but I think my point still got across.

In my opinion EVERY dog is a "mutt" in some way no matter how old or new their breed may be. Dogs have been crossbred for thousands of years to bring out the desired traits depending on the situation they were living in and humans have always been creating numerous different breeds from older ones. Some were even created through backcrossing with pure wolves such as the Saarloos, vlcaks, Lupo Italiano, Kunming, while some breeds are just am amalgamation of different older breeds mixed into the genepool such as the Tamaskan. There are also some newer mutts with known coyote and golden jackal ancestry crossed into their genepool such as the American Indian Dog and the Sulimov dog respectively. Given all of that, I think this drama with the Czechoslovakian vlcak group just looks hypocritical. But hey, we're all hypocrites anyway since we're humans after all.

[Lynwae]

Could be interesting for you. I was at a wolfdog meeting two weeks ago.
We met Ink, a young NI girl. She was very sweet, playfull and cute. But kinda shy whith people.

You can see the differences with Ayla in the following pic :

Ayla is in front, Ink behind.

1082591_10151801565134429_1709639563_o.jpg

1149105_10151806110904429_1031615753_o.jpg

1116067_10151806114129429_273849188_o.jpg

1102490_10151801539254429_301043028_o.jpg

52092_10151806108054429_806218771_o.jpg

1119802_10151800902714429_943130747_o.jpg

[balto13]

human high content love it!

[Czertice]

Hello, for some reason email notifications stopped coming from this forum, so it has been some time since I last visited:]

I always perk up when Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs get mentioned, and I think you need to know that wolfdog.org forum is not a forum where you should go searching for general CSW people's opinions;] There are hundreds of csw owning or breeding people all over the world who communicate over the internet. Only a small part attends wolfdog.org forum. You better go searching for them over at facebook. I daresay most of them never heard of Tamaskans.

I already wrote it somewhere else here - why many CSW people have problems with their dogs being considered as an outcross for any breed. (A litter outcrossed means a litter lost to CSW population.)
I also think that intentional cross breeding is forbidden by many national CSW breed clubs statutes. Cross breeding is a feared issue in our breed - there have been cases of CSW breeders crossing in wolves, or high contents, passing it off as a CSW, very beautiful, very wolfish .... only the temperaments were a wildcard.
I believe crossing is feared because of this, not because of some specific hate aimed at the Tamaskan experiment.
So not only outcrossing is simply "illegal", it also means you can be easily labeled as a "breeder of csw-like crosses" and be blacklisted in a CSW breeding community. People just don't want to cross anything or even talk about it, to stay on the safe side.

I want to say that not all CSW owners or breeders are "mud slinging tight elitist douchebags", at least I like to think I'm not:D Hawthorne I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with some CSW people. If you would like to learn what I know about CSWs, you are very welcome to contact me.

[Sylvaen]

Hello, for some reason email notifications stopped coming from this forum, so it has been some time since I last visited

I think I (hopefully) managed to fix the bug last night - there were errors with the mail server settings... but it seems OK now...

[Nimwey]

I always perk up when Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs get mentioned, and I think you need to know that wolfdog.org forum is not a forum where you should go searching for general CSW people's opinions;]

Of course, I realize not nearly everyone has the opinion of those I quoted, and owners/breeders of most registered, "real" breeds tend to strongly resent the idea of their breed being used in any "mutt project", I realize that's not exclusive to some CsV-people.

So I apologize if that's how I came across.

[Czertice]

Hello, for some reason email notifications stopped coming from this forum, so it has been some time since I last visited

I think I (hopefully) managed to fix the bug last night - there were errors with the mail server settings... but it seems OK now...

Yep, it works great now, thanks!

I always perk up when Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs get mentioned, and I think you need to know that wolfdog.org forum is not a forum where you should go searching for general CSW people's opinions;]

Of course, I realize not nearly everyone has the opinion of those I quoted, and owners/breeders of most registered, "real" breeds tend to strongly resent the idea of their breed being used in any "mutt project", I realize that's not exclusive to some CsV-people.

So I apologize if that's how I came across.

That's okay, I understand what you meant, I'm just trying to point out the other side of the argument. It might get useful remembering this when Tamaskans are a registered breed and somebody else starts project Tamaskan 2.0. ;]
It was like this with CSWs - Ing. Hartl said "Hey, let's create a better GSD by outcrossing to wolves." and he met with fierce opposition from GSD owners and breeders: "You there! What do you think you are doing with our breed? You are creating mutts! GSDs don't need an improvement, since they are already perfect. Wolfish blood will only destroy the whole century of our hard work and careful selection... Stop it right now!"
And now, decades after - CSWs are no longer mutts, they are even used as an outcross themselves, and there are different people shouting: "You there! What do you think ... etc."

[Hawthorne]

I want to say that not all CSW owners or breeders are "mud slinging tight elitist douchebags", at least I like to think I'm not:D Hawthorne I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with some CSW people. If you would like to learn what I know about CSWs, you are very welcome to contact me.

Thank you, I very much appreciate that. I was trying to do the responsible thing and research the breed that "surprise!" was in the Tamaskan. To be fair, it was the American Club that came down so hard on me. And I only pushed back because they were calling me a puppy mill / backyard breeder. I was very offended. But when I started telling them about our Annual Breed Show which was judged by an actual judge, etc, and that I health test my dogs and even puppies they really couldn't call me names any more and decided I had "railroaded" the conversation. I was promptly removed.

It is a general elitist feeling with a lot of pure breed dog breeders: "there are no other breeds but recognized breeds and there ought not be any more created. Everything else is just a mongrel that doesn't deserve to exist and how dare you breed trash."

Of course, I then push back that I researched coyotes for 10 years and gave over 40 public lectures. And that people always asked if coyotes or wolves make good pets... What's the solution? A wolf-look-alike with none of the temperament problems! Does that dog breed exist? Yes, it's a Tamaskan Dog. Hooray!

And certainly not all pure breed dog breeders are against us. My mentor has been in Afghans / Bearded Collies for over 20 years. She LOVES the fact that all of us are in this at the ground level and calls it "a very exciting time to be involved in a breed." It truly is. For each of us will shape the breed more than we know.

Ok. Done with that off-topic-rant.

I have never met an NI but would love to. Are there many in the US, does anyone know? Do they have a North American Club? We are, after all, partially a downline of them. And again, I would love to reach out to people if nothing else than to just "talk dogs." We have a lot to learn from one another!

[Czertice]

I want to say that not all CSW owners or breeders are "mud slinging tight elitist douchebags", at least I like to think I'm not:D Hawthorne I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with some CSW people. If you would like to learn what I know about CSWs, you are very welcome to contact me.

Thank you, I very much appreciate that. I was trying to do the responsible thing and research the breed that "surprise!" was in the Tamaskan. To be fair, it was the American Club that came down so hard on me. And I only pushed back because they were calling me a puppy mill / backyard breeder. I was very offended. But when I started telling them about our Annual Breed Show which was judged by an actual judge, etc, and that I health test my dogs and even puppies they really couldn't call me names any more and decided I had "railroaded" the conversation. I was promptly removed.

It is a general elitist feeling with a lot of pure breed dog breeders: "there are no other breeds but recognized breeds and there ought not be any more created. Everything else is just a mongrel that doesn't deserve to exist and how dare you breed trash."

Of course, I then push back that I researched coyotes for 10 years and gave over 40 public lectures. And that people always asked if coyotes or wolves make good pets... What's the solution? A wolf-look-alike with none of the temperament problems! Does that dog breed exist? Yes, it's a Tamaskan Dog. Hooray!

And certainly not all pure breed dog breeders are against us. My mentor has been in Afghans / Bearded Collies for over 20 years. She LOVES the fact that all of us are in this at the ground level and calls it "a very exciting time to be involved in a breed." It truly is. For each of us will shape the breed more than we know.

Ok. Done with that off-topic-rant.

I have never met an NI but would love to. Are there many in the US, does anyone know? Do they have a North American Club? We are, after all, partially a downline of them. And again, I would love to reach out to people if nothing else than to just "talk dogs." We have a lot to learn from one another!

Oh dear, doesn't it sound familiar... I also had a little disagreement with the US Vlcak Club, defending myself only led some participants to calling me BYB/puppy miller, so I gave up. I support what they do for CSWs in the US, and I admire how careful they are trying to be with their breeding, but I will be doing the supporting and admiring quietly and from far away from now on;]
I still send to them all the Americans that write to me asking for recommendations of breeders in the US, so maybe if these people happen to tell them who sent them, my reputation will get better with time... until then I am a "stupid, unscrupulous, greedy puppy miller" I bred the staggering number of four purebred Czechoslovakian puppies, and made so much money out of them that I will never have to work again, you see;]

What I want to say is - there are some eerily competitive people among breeders, and it's a rare oportunity for them all to have a common enemy: mutt breeders, yay. Let them enjoy their witch hunt, and prove their accusations wrong by doing your breeding the best you can - you are at the beginning;]

[Hawthorne]

Where's the like ^ button
Thanks

[Czertice]

Where's the like ^ button
Thanks

Welcome