The "other" wolf content issue

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The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:40 am

I realize I may be in the minority on the aspect of things. But my *personal* moral code includes the belief that wild things should be kept wild.
I respect the love and commitment many wolf-dog keepers and breeders have for their lovely animals, and my intent is not to debate the moral superiority of either philosophy.

That said, one of the reasons I felt good about getting Tamaskans was that no wolves were "wattered down" or compromised their freedom in the development of the breed. Now we learn it was not so. Knowing that wolf-dog decendents are included in the development causes some uncomfortable cognitive disonance.
(your milage may vary, but to me, that characterization extends to the dog breeds derived from modern wolves such as Saarloose and CzvWD and now, the Tamaskan.)

If there is another (there may not be) that shares this particular quirk in their personal value system, I would be grateful for a coraspondence re: how we make peace with the disconnect of loving our furry-family members and taking joy in them while also honoring the dissapointment of un-wittingly becomming owners and supporters of a breed that was developed with moral views on wildlife inconsistant with our personal values.

I truely respect the fact that this opinion is not mainstream here. With all sincerity, I mean no disrespect to those of different values. I hope I was successful in asking for *private* discussion of this without causing offence. If I have injured your feelings in any way, please PM me about it. I will hear you and apologize if the clumsy expression of my request caused you pain.

Thanks,
-Angie
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:36 am

I feel the same actually and it's good to know i'm not alone.
Talks with Lynn before getting my boy were always the lack of wolf content and i believed her. I could have had a CV but i felt much better buying a mix of arctic crosses where the use of wolves was not an issue and i could feel totally guilt free...
I would not change my boy for the world, don't get me wrong... He is fantastic, but given the chance to make up my own mind, i may not have got him because i hate the fact people are breeding wolf to dog... wolves deserve so much better than that, living, been trained as a dog in some aspects... It makes me sad :( ... No matter how big the cage is, you are still caging a wild animal.
It would be a huge shame to not have got him as i have met so many wonderful people hear... But I still can't help but feel cheated... I was conned out of my money by lies and deceit which *in my opinion* makes it no better than those who attach card readers to cash machines and clone your bank card.... I have yelled at those trying to gt the truth out about the wolf content and called them some things relating to the slander that was said about them (which i have sent off all my humble pies in the form of apologies and most, in fact all were very gracious about it which i truly thank them for )...

I hope this thread remains open as i'm interested to find out how many more are having issues...
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:52 am

I share the same feeling and hope no more CV or Sarloose are added.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by nivenj » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:11 am

I too chose the Tamaskan over the CSV partly as I was "Worried" about the temperament of owning a dog with wolf content. Just the fact that of the half a dozen or so Pet insurance companies that I contacted to get a quote for a CSV refused to insure them made me concerned that there must be a reason they would not do so, as the saying goes, "There is no smoke without fire". However that said, and since I have started researching the rumors on possible wolf content in the Tamaskan, I did have to agree with another saying, "You cant make an omelette without breaking some eggs" :) I'm not thrilled by the revelation that there is wolf content in the Breed, but I do have to admit, all things considered I'm not completely shocked by it either.

There is a very good discussion paper that I found and I would recommend reading it. There is one Paragraph,
Even today, however, it is likely that cross breeding still occurs between dogs and wolves, particularly in places such as Alaska, where wild wolves still survive. “Alaskan Huskies” are often used as superior sledge dogs. The “Alaskan Husky” is not a recognised domestic breed of dog, but is a cross breed, usually between a Siberian Husky and a wolf, setter or hound. The cross breeding is intended to produce animals with greater levels of speed and endurance (Anonymous, The Alaskan Husky Breed). These dogs are often left to roam when not required and matings may occur with local wild canines, which may include wolves or wolfdogs.
You can download the document here http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pe ... lfdogs.pdf
EDIT: Note this paper is from 2000 and therefore some of the information, especially around legal position may no longer be correct.

Therefore, although I completely understand your point, I think the fact that these matings / cross breeding can take place without human intervention, makes the moral implications slightly less of an issue for me. I do believe though that as a tool, used for Breeding, any animal, wolf or other which is "kept" by humans, should be in an environment that they are happy. From what I have seen of the pictures of the wolf / high content wolfdogs used in the Tamaskan, they look healthy, happy and have great living conditions. I'm not sure wild animals see Freedom , in the same way we do. I do think that most wild animals are content if they have plenty of food, feel safe and secure and have mental stimulation. It sure beats fighting for survival :-)

But I do understand your concern.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by dash » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:26 am

nivenj makes a good point wolf to dog matings have been happening naturally for centuries. Settlements that were close to wolfpacks always had hybrids from accidental matings - it is natural and as they say life finds a way!!
The siberian husky is a direct descendant of wolves after the Chukchi tribe some 3000 years ago mated their dogs with wolves. They lived a symbiotic life with the wolf, sharing hunting grounds, etc and it seemed an evolutionary step for their dogs and wolves to mate creating the siberian husky.
Freedom is our term and our emotion and not the highest resource to a pack animal. The lies and deceit should not be forgiven easily, but I don't think wolves quality of lives were compromised when introduced in the lines - hope this helps!

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:30 am

Human intervention and natural occurrence are 2 totally separate things... ;) and It kinda makes me sad to see some peoples pictures of wolfdogs in cages (no matter how big, it's still a cage) or been walked on a chain... it looks so... idk how to explain it... it doesn't give me the same feeling as seeing pictures of wild wolves running with their pack when Googling "wolves".
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:35 am

For the sake of a healthy debate:
Though the Shar Pei does not look much like a wolf, genetic research has revealed the dog shares more genetics with the gray wolf than any other purebred dog. http://www.ehow.com/info_8606510_breeds ... olves.html
All dog breeds are descended from wolves... some are more closely related than others. How do you feel about Shar Peis, Akitas, Chow Chows, and Saluki's? are they also 'tainted' (in your view) by their genetic proximity to wolves? Even if they had no 'recent' addition of 'wild' wolf content, the genes are compounded by selective breeding, which means that they share many (if not most) of the wolf genetic markers that can be detected by DNA tests. Just because a dog tests positive as a 'wolf hybrid' - does that make it a wild animal? maybe we should release all those Shar Peis and Akitas back into the wild where they can live a 'free' life away from the human 'interference' that created those breeds in the first place... would that relieve some of the "uncomfortable cognitive disonance"?
But my *personal* moral code includes the belief that wild things should be kept wild.
I agree to a degree... but without domestication we wouldn't have all these breeds of cattle, horses, dogs, etc that exist today... just a bunch of wild animals. Our whole human existence would be vastly different today so it's probably a good thing that early man didn't share your personal moral code. ;)
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:26 am

I agree with Debby. I'm personally not bothered by that fact that wolfdogs were used in the creation of this breed but I do think people should be aware of that. I also wouldn't mind if 'more' Saarloos/Czech or other low content wolfdogs (F5+ gen) are used in the future, as long as it isn't being kept secret and they are suitable for the breed in terms of health and temperament.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by HiTenshi16 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:40 pm

Rahne wrote:I agree with Debby. I'm personally not bothered by that fact that wolfdogs were used in the creation of this breed but I do think people should be aware of that. I also wouldn't mind if 'more' Saarloos/Czech or other low content wolfdogs (F5+ gen) are used in the future, as long as it isn't being kept secret and they are suitable for the breed in terms of health and temperament.
Agreed.
I also think about how dogs are descendants of wolves, we would not have the dogs we love today had some not been domesticated far back. Plus the way I see it, wolves are social animals, as long as where they are living they are happy (wether it is in the wild or living with humans), then let them be.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:59 pm

I respect your position and realize mine is the unusual, lesser one.

I see a dramatic difference between the phenomenon of some wolves domesticating themselves over thousands of years of human interaction (something I find beautiful) and accidental, incidental, occasional interbreeding of their dog-decendents with wild wolves (something I find regrettable) and purposely capturing a wild animal to be purposefully bread into a domestic breeding program. (something I find deeply disturbing.) none of those situations have anything to do with the other in my mind.

I will ask that, since this appears to be a discussion that will happen in public, that the moderators please help me keep it on track as a discussion ammong the few who share my moral delema how to handle that moral delema and help prevent it from digressing into an argument as to wether or not there "should" even be a moral delema.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:17 pm

Sylvaen wrote:For the sake of a healthy debate:

.. some are more closely related than others. How do you feel about Shar Peis, Akitas, Chow Chows, and Saluki's? are they also 'tainted' (in your view) by their genetic proximity to wolves? ... a good thing that early man didn't share your personal moral code. ;)
When I used the term "untainted lines" in my Facebook post (on my personal status, not a public forum) I was referring to the lines untained *morally* by the practice of people mating wildlife to domesticated dogs. Though I do believe that an argument could be made that when you are promoting an animal as "pure dog" any "non-dog" content could, correctly be referred to as a "tainting" of that purity. Though I do apologize for the word choice since it does hold a connotation of repugnance innaproprate for public discourse. Though I hold that in my personal Facebook status, it was not as innaproprate as used here.

PS- I would also invite you to start a debate thread, if you think there needs to be a healthy debate. I may be interested in participating. But I opened this thread to invite like minded individuals into a conversation sharing feelings and advice for resolving the moral conflict we now find ourselves in. If you have no moral conflict, (and many fine people do not) then perhaps this thread might not be of interest to you.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Lynwae » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:19 pm

As far as we know, no wolf was hurt during the process of making the breed.
There are, as nivenj said, a lot of northern dogs who are part wolf, due to natural crosses or bitches let in the wood when they were in heat on purpose.
I do understand your statement, what is wild is meant to stay wild...
But, are the wolfdogs wild? What happens is we "release" this dogs to the wild? Do you think they have the ability to live on their own, far from the humans?
This is hardly believable.
At which moment an half wild pet becomes a pet or remains a wild animal?
I would easily speak of degree of dependance. The moment when these animals need a human help to live and agree to live near from the Human, they are pets, no more wild.
This is what I think. And, obviously, Ayla wouldn't be able to live on her own...
SO my dog is a pet, not a wild wolf dog.
She needs me to live an happy life and I'm happy to offer that to her, nevermind who and what are her ancestries.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Lynwae wrote:As far as we know, no wolf was hurt during the process of making the breed.
There are, as nivenj said, a lot of northern dogs who are part wolf, due to natural crosses or bitches let in the wood when they were in heat on purpose.
I do understand your statement, what is wild is meant to stay wild...
But, are the wolfdogs wild? What happens is we "release" this dogs to the wild? Do you think they have the ability to live on their own, far from the humans?
This is hardly believable.
At which moment an half wild pet becomes a pet or remains a wild animal?
I would easily speak of degree of dependance. The moment when these animals need a human help to live and agree to live near from the Human, they are pets, no more wild.
This is what I think. And, obviously, Ayla wouldn't be able to live on her own...
SO my dog is a pet, not a wild wolf dog.
She needs me to live an happy life and I'm happy to offer that to her, nevermind who and what are her ancestries.
Again, I follow your rationalization. But buying and supporting and promoting a breed at depends on past wolf content, is, in my philosophy, promoting a desire ammong others for wolf-content dogs and leading to a perpetuation of the practice. This is specifically why I chose a Tamaskan and not a Saarloose or CzWD.
It is also why I don't by dogs online or from pet stores. Not because I don't care for the dogs, but because I am morally opposed to where they came from and don't want to perpetuate or participate in the practice.

You don't get to pick what someone else values. ;)
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Lynwae » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:50 pm

Ok, I understand.
Don't know what to tell you :)
I think that, now that you have Paka and learnt (like we all dod) where she comes from, i guess you just have to find a way to keep loving tamaskan dogs for what they are, and not for what they used to be :)

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:52 pm

Lynwae wrote:Ok, I understand.
Don't know what to tell you :)
I think that, now that you have Paka and learnt (like we all dod) where she comes from, i guess you just have to find a way to keep loving tamaskan dogs for what they are, and not for what they used to be :)
Beautifully put.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:13 pm

AngieH wrote:When I used the term "untainted lines" in my Facebook post (on my personal status, not a public forum) I was referring to the lines untained *morally* by the practice of people mating wildlife to domesticated dogs. Though I do believe that an argument could be made that when you are promoting an animal as "pure dog" any "non-dog" content could, correctly be referred to as a "tainting" of that purity. Though I do apologize for the word choice since it does hold a connotation of repugnance innaproprate for public discourse. Though I hold that in my personal Facebook status, it was not as innaproprate as used here.
Ahhh OK - I understand :)
Keep in mind, some dogs that tested 'negative' are simply further generations removed from the wolfdogs in question (and thus the wolf genes have been diluted so that they no longer appear on the DNA test)... but those wolfdogs still appear further back in the ancestry. If you look far enough back on Paka's pedigree, those same dogs (the ones in question as 'wolfdogs' or at least Czech) should still appear.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by JulieSmith » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:37 pm

This discussion for me throws into doubt the validity of the wolf test done. If dogs like Shar pei carry the marker how many other breeds also carry the marker and are any of those breeds used in the creation of the Tamaskan. What I am thinking is what percentage of Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds and Malamutes carry the markers. It has been said on this forum that Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds, Saloos or czech have a lot of wolf influence in their past, long enough ago now for them to be classed as dogs, but do they still carry the markers. If they do and the test can not distinguish from markers inherited from one of these breeds and a marker inherited from pure wolf then the test is useless. I think a lot more research needs to be done on this test and the validity of the results before we jump to the conclusion that it supports the theory that wolf was added to this breed.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:20 pm

JulieSmith wrote:This discussion for me throws into doubt the validity of the wolf test done. If dogs like Shar pei carry the marker how many other breeds also carry the marker and are any of those breeds used in the creation of the Tamaskan. What I am thinking is what percentage of Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds and Malamutes carry the markers. It has been said on this forum that Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds, Saloos or czech have a lot of wolf influence in their past, long enough ago now for them to be classed as dogs, but do they still carry the markers. If they do and the test can not distinguish from markers inherited from one of these breeds and a marker inherited from pure wolf then the test is useless. I think a lot more research needs to be done on this test and the validity of the results before we jump to the conclusion that it supports the theory that wolf was added to this breed.
I know, I for one, would find it very comforting if The Tamaskan could be shown to be "above suspicion" of wolf-dog content. Not sure that would be possible.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by JulieSmith » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:25 pm

AngieH wrote:
JulieSmith wrote:This discussion for me throws into doubt the validity of the wolf test done. If dogs like Shar pei carry the marker how many other breeds also carry the marker and are any of those breeds used in the creation of the Tamaskan. What I am thinking is what percentage of Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds and Malamutes carry the markers. It has been said on this forum that Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds, Saloos or czech have a lot of wolf influence in their past, long enough ago now for them to be classed as dogs, but do they still carry the markers. If they do and the test can not distinguish from markers inherited from one of these breeds and a marker inherited from pure wolf then the test is useless. I think a lot more research needs to be done on this test and the validity of the results before we jump to the conclusion that it supports the theory that wolf was added to this breed.
I know, I for one, would find it very comforting if The Tamaskan could be shown to be "above suspicion" of wolf-dog content. Not sure that would be possible.
I agree, but for me as it stands the evidence is not strong enough and until a better test is developed nothing can be proved and we are back to he said she said! Considering the history between the main adversaries in this I want to deal only in facts not half truths and allegations, especially as the aim of some seems to be to ruin the person who started this wonderful breed. I suspect that the truth is somewhere in the middle

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:32 pm

I'm sorry, but i have to say, i think Lynn ruined her self... She didn't need any help. She did that the day she told the 1st lie... Sorry if i'm out of line but how can someone ruin someone that had set their own path way before anything else was said?
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:35 pm

JulieSmith wrote:This discussion for me throws into doubt the validity of the wolf test done. If dogs like Shar pei carry the marker how many other breeds also carry the marker and are any of those breeds used in the creation of the Tamaskan. What I am thinking is what percentage of Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds and Malamutes carry the markers. It has been said on this forum that Siberian Huskies, German Shepherds, Saloos or czech have a lot of wolf influence in their past, long enough ago now for them to be classed as dogs, but do they still carry the markers. If they do and the test can not distinguish from markers inherited from one of these breeds and a marker inherited from pure wolf then the test is useless. I think a lot more research needs to be done on this test and the validity of the results before we jump to the conclusion that it supports the theory that wolf was added to this breed.
Just to add to this: we can't say for certain if the wolf markers that are detected by the UC Davis DNA test do appear in other pedigree breeds (or not) - it was just my speculation that it might be a possibility being that certain pedigree breeds are very closely related to wolves (genetically). However, as they look nothing like actual wolfdogs (Shar Pei etc) - my hypothesis was that IF we could PROVE that a Shar Pei (or other closely-related-to-wolves pedigree breed) tests positive for wolf markers with the UC Davis test, then we could dismiss the UC Davis test... until that time we can't say for certain though.

IF we could test a few different breeds (for instance Lhasa Apso, CED, Tamaskan, Husky and Malamute) and label them ALL as 'mixes' then that will eliminate any possible subjective results and it will be very interesting to see which, if any, test positive for wolf content... though, honestly, the best way to ensure accurate results would be to send in 100 tests for each breed (different bloodlines etc) - obviously this isn't possible but I really wonder just how 'good' this test of theirs really is as the results are so ambiguous. That being said, the fact remains: some Tamaskans tested positive for wolf content, others did not. This means that only some bloodlines have detectable wolf content, which implies that other dog breeds (husky, Shar Pei, etc) would also produce negative results. Though the question of Czech / Saaloos content is still unanswerable (for now).
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:55 pm

Alright, maybe I should untangle some of my concerns and puzzle this out one piece at a time. 

1. Paka & Fable:  RESOLVED 
The fact that I would not have persued Tamaskan ownership had I known they were (partly, a few lines) derived from wolf-dogs and/or breeds developed from contemporary wolves is all just water under the bridge. Paka & Fable are precious darlings! Even if I learned that they were both F1 wolf-dogs, I wouldn't hold it against them personally. It doesn't change who they are.  The present revelations have no bearing on them or their place in my family or in my heart. A complete non-issue for me morally. I gave them both my commitment to a loving home and that, they will always have. <3

2. How, if at all, Paka & Fable may be effected: RESOLVED 
In spite of the limmitations of the UC Davis test (indeed, perhaps even *because* of them) I can have the girls tested and obtain a document from a disinterested 3rd party that my girls are 100% dog. I will do this. I will do this soon, before the test can be refined to reliably test for markers of European wolves. (Just in case the dog in their pedigree. suspected of being CvWD actually is one AND just in case a CvWD might throw European wolf markers in spite of it's dog status.) As you can Immagine, given the disclosure of my morals and values, the crowd I associate with, train my dogs with and visit dog-parks with may not be too accepting of a Tamaskan after the recent disclosures. That (unreliable) bit of genetic testing could go a long way in managing breed prejudice. 

3. How, if at all to participate/interact with the TDR: PROGRESS
    (Resolution expected as emotions settle)
I have been mislead, with many others, into a choice of pet that violates my principles. The TDR will go on with positive changes and measures to prevent future problems of this nature. Perhaps there is no reason for me not to continue to be a member of this fine community. I have developed friendships, appreciation for international views on pet husbandry and I find the forum a remarkable source of support, information and, at times, healthy, engaging debate.
It does make me a little uncomfortable that my continued participation involves me in a pro-wolf-dog forum. But I think I can make peace with that discomfort given the sense of unity we all have wanting what is best for our dogs. Perhaps I would not have knowingly participated in a pro-wolf-dog community, but given that I have dogs that can benefit from the collective wisdoms here, I think it makes sense for me to stay and my discomfort will pass with the continued friendship and sense of shared community. I will, of course, take care not to insult my friends in areas where our moral philosophies may differ. That would not be friendly.   :) 

4. Wether or not to renew my NTCA membership. STILL AT ISSUE
All of the argument in favor of my continued participation in the TDR forum community applies to the NTCA. Then add on top of that, the fact NTCA supports our breed rescue and I believe very strongly that if you choose a pedigree dog instead of giving a home to a shelter dog, you owe a deep karmic debt to homless dogs everywhere and are obligated to their support and care. All very good reasons to renew. 
But there are also some negative arguments to painfully consider and resolve as well. 

The club constitution would obligate me to promote the Tamaskan breed. In several places in the constitution and  code of ethics there is a clear obligation to engage in activities that actively elicit excitement and desire to own Tamaskan dogs.  This goes against my personal values of not participating in activities that perpetuate wolf-dog fascination and a feel that doing so makes me an accomplice to the practice of using wild animals in domestic breeding programs. 

If left to my own conscience, I would not call Paka a "Tamaskan" in public at all any more. Since the wolf-content disclosure announcement. I would prefer to refer to her as "a working dog derived from various arctic breeds." and if there was sincere personal interest, I would  consider discussing the details on a case-by-case basis. Would that sufficiently discharge my duty under the NTCA constitution?

Being a member of the club also gives me a voice in the discussion whether or not to include wolf-breeds in the Tamaskan's future or to try to breed away from (in my view) undesirable wolf-dog-suspected lines. I expect there will be a lot of hairs to split over that discussion in the months to come. I would like a seat at that debate table. 

Thoughts? 
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by MelB » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:12 pm

AngieH wrote:3. How, if at all to participate/interact with the TDR: PROGRESS
    (Resolution expected as emotions settle)
I have been mislead, with many others, into a choice of pet that violates my principles. The TDR will go on with positive changes and measures to prevent future problems of this nature. Perhaps there is no reason for me not to continue to be a member of this fine community. I have developed friendships, appreciation for international views on pet husbandry and I find the forum a remarkable source of support, information and, at times, healthy, engaging debate.
It does make me a little uncomfortable that my continued participation involves me in a pro-wolf-dog forum. But I think I can make peace with that discomfort given the sense of unity we all have wanting what is best for our dogs. Perhaps I would not have knowingly participated in a pro-wolf-dog community, but given that I have dogs that can benefit from the collective wisdoms here, I think it makes sense for me to stay and my discomfort will pass with the continued friendship and sense of shared community. I will, of course, take care not to insult my friends in areas where our moral philosophies may differ. That would not be friendly.   :) 
I see no reason to stop participating in the TDR. We have all been misled so we all share a common ground. We weren't after a wolfdog either but Cindy's Grandfather Oskari works out to be F7 (OK still classed as dog as beyond f5). We wanted a breed that was tested for health from the start to avoid repeating the heartaches we had just suffered with out GSDs. We didn't get that either.
As I see it, so long as people are willing to work with the truth and do things right I can't see a reason not to stay with the TDR. Having more people with the dogs welfare at heart can only strengthen the breed so that could be a motivation for you to stay.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by julie123 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:32 am

Cant speak for Tams as I am a new prospective owner so maybe I dont fully get this topic yet. However my thoughts are, Newfoundland history bears lessons for what happens when dogs left to revert back to a wild existence. People in newfoundland apparently due to a very hard life and poverty turned their dogs loose in winter when it was difficult to feed them and they were not so needed to work , they turned to hunting to survive and destruction of domestic stock resulted in a bill to cull these dogs. As a result I believe the newfoundland was almost decimated in its country of origin. Sound like a familiar story? recent attempts to introduce wolves back into the wild are still suffering the same prejudice and reaction. My question would more so be does this change anything about the Tamaskan? If it makes the animals more untrustworthy or aggressive that is a major concern particularly as your breed standard suggests the breed has an excellent temperament with children and other animals. If using wolf or wolf hybrid doesn't affect the nature or cause a danger to the public I would not be too concerned myself. Many species in zoos now being introduced back into the wild would probably be extinct now if not kept in protected captivity meantime. I agree animals tend to be happy if kept safe,secure, well fed and cared for with appropriate stimulation or exercise. I have a domesticated pony and dont think she envies the wild marsh ponies their" freedom " to go hungry in winter get cut off on tiny islands in a rising tide or trapped in the mud.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by nivenj » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:34 am

julie123 wrote:Cant speak for Tams as I am a new prospective owner so maybe I dont fully get this topic yet. However my thoughts are, Newfoundland history bears lessons for what happens when dogs left to revert back to a wild existence. People in newfoundland apparently due to a very hard life and poverty turned their dogs loose in winter when it was difficult to feed them and they were not so needed to work , they turned to hunting to survive and destruction of domestic stock resulted in a bill to cull these dogs. As a result I believe the newfoundland was almost decimated in its country of origin. Sound like a familiar story? recent attempts to introduce wolves back into the wild are still suffering the same prejudice and reaction. My question would more so be does this change anything about the Tamaskan? If it makes the animals more untrustworthy or aggressive that is a major concern particularly as your breed standard suggests the breed has an excellent temperament with children and other animals. If using wolf or wolf hybrid doesn't affect the nature or cause a danger to the public I would not be too concerned myself. Many species in zoos now being introduced back into the wild would probably be extinct now if not kept in protected captivity meantime. I agree animals tend to be happy if kept safe,secure, well fed and cared for with appropriate stimulation or exercise. I have a domesticated pony and dont think she envies the wild marsh ponies their" freedom " to go hungry in winter get cut off on tiny islands in a rising tide or trapped in the mud.
Hi Julie and welcome :D I posted on your FB question my view on the Tamaskan Temperament and what these revelations mean. I dont want to hijack this thread with my answer here so will PM you directly.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Hawthorne » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:10 pm

AngieH wrote: 4. Wether or not to renew my NTCA membership. STILL AT ISSUE
All of the argument in favor of my continued participation in the TDR forum community applies to the NTCA. Then add on top of that, the fact NTCA supports our breed rescue and I believe very strongly that if you choose a pedigree dog instead of giving a home to a shelter dog, you owe a deep karmic debt to homless dogs everywhere and are obligated to their support and care. All very good reasons to renew. 
But there are also some negative arguments to painfully consider and resolve as well. 

The club constitution would obligate me to promote the Tamaskan breed. In several places in the constitution and  code of ethics there is a clear obligation to engage in activities that actively elicit excitement and desire to own Tamaskan dogs.  This goes against my personal values of not participating in activities that perpetuate wolf-dog fascination and a feel that doing so makes me an accomplice to the practice of using wild animals in domestic breeding programs. 

If left to my own conscience, I would not call Paka a "Tamaskan" in public at all any more. Since the wolf-content disclosure announcement. I would prefer to refer to her as "a working dog derived from various arctic breeds." and if there was sincere personal interest, I would  consider discussing the details on a case-by-case basis. Would that sufficiently discharge my duty under the NTCA constitution?

Being a member of the club also gives me a voice in the discussion whether or not to include wolf-breeds in the Tamaskan's future or to try to breed away from (in my view) undesirable wolf-dog-suspected lines. I expect there will be a lot of hairs to split over that discussion in the months to come. I would like a seat at that debate table. 

Thoughts? 
Hi Angie,
We will be happy to discuss this at our membership meeting on June 30th at 7pm. Are you able to attend? I completely understand your point of view as we became BREEDERS because of the touted "no wolf content." For those who know me they know my background: I worked with wild coyotes for over 10 years, did telemetry research and gave a lot of public lectures. The public always asks "do coyotes make good pets?" My response was, and always will be: no, never. So, that's where I'm coming from--probably somewhere similar to where you're coming from.

I actually choose to not disclose the name of the breed with some people. Passersby on the street who just don't seem "right" -- no way, I don't tell them what the breed is. Maybe that's me making swift judgement but I want to attract the "right" people to the breed. Not people who go on looks alone. So in my opinion you are not violating the code of ethics. As it reads, I don't think it requires you to shout from the rooftops :D This is, of course, my interpretation though.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
AngieH wrote: 4. Wether or not to renew my NTCA membership. STILL AT ISSUE
All of the argument in favor of my continued participation in the TDR forum community applies to the NTCA. Then add on top of that, the fact NTCA supports our breed rescue and I believe very strongly that if you choose a pedigree dog instead of giving a home to a shelter dog, you owe a deep karmic debt to homless dogs everywhere and are obligated to their support and care. All very good reasons to renew. 
But there are also some negative arguments to painfully consider and resolve as well. 

The club constitution would obligate me to promote the Tamaskan breed. In several places in the constitution and  code of ethics there is a clear obligation to engage in activities that actively elicit excitement and desire to own Tamaskan dogs.  This goes against my personal values of not participating in activities that perpetuate wolf-dog fascination and a feel that doing so makes me an accomplice to the practice of using wild animals in domestic breeding programs. 

If left to my own conscience, I would not call Paka a "Tamaskan" in public at all any more. Since the wolf-content disclosure announcement. I would prefer to refer to her as "a working dog derived from various arctic breeds." and if there was sincere personal interest, I would  consider discussing the details on a case-by-case basis. Would that sufficiently discharge my duty under the NTCA constitution?

Being a member of the club also gives me a voice in the discussion whether or not to include wolf-breeds in the Tamaskan's future or to try to breed away from (in my view) undesirable wolf-dog-suspected lines. I expect there will be a lot of hairs to split over that discussion in the months to come. I would like a seat at that debate table. 

Thoughts? 
Hi Angie,
We will be happy to discuss this at our membership meeting on June 30th at 7pm. Are you able to attend? I completely understand your point of view as we became BREEDERS because of the touted "no wolf content." For those who know me they know my background: I worked with wild coyotes for over 10 years, did telemetry research and gave a lot of public lectures. The public always asks "do coyotes make good pets?" My response was, and always will be: no, never. So, that's where I'm coming from--probably somewhere similar to where you're coming from.

I actually choose to not disclose the name of the breed with some people. Passersby on the street who just don't seem "right" -- no way, I don't tell them what the breed is. Maybe that's me making swift judgement but I want to attract the "right" people to the breed. Not people who go on looks alone. So in my opinion you are not violating the code of ethics. As it reads, I don't think it requires you to shout from the rooftops :D This is, of course, my interpretation though.
Thank you Tracy,
Yes, Wayne, Em and I will be there.
I have nothing but respect for the way things have beed addressed and handled. I just wouldn't want to be in a position where my continued membership and participation in the NTCA might conflict with my conscience re: the moral, ethical and philosophical aspects of wolf-dog breeds perpetuation.
I'm sure we will all be able to come to an understanding.

As I wrote to John recently, "My babies will always be my babies, and my friends will always be my friends."

~A
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by nivenj » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:53 pm

AngieH wrote: Thank you Tracy,
Yes, Wayne, Em and I will be there.
I have nothing but respect for the way things have beed addressed and handled. I just wouldn't want to be in a position where my continued membership and participation in the NTCA might conflict with my conscience re: the moral, ethical and philosophical aspects of wolf-dog breeds perpetuation.
I'm sure we will all be able to come to an understanding.

As I wrote to John recently, "My babies will always be my babies, and my friends will always be my friends."

~A
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:35 am

In my opinion about the wolfdog issue, I want to make it clear that all domestic dogs, regardless of breeds or "dog race" as some languages like my native dialect call them that, they are ALL part of the familiaris subspecies of the Grey wolf and are all descend from them. But like Debby said, SOME like the pariah and the northern spitz are slightly more closer to the true Grey wolves than many others. But just because a dog tests positive for that little bit of wolf-content does not mean that it should be sent into the wild. The last thing we need is more problems with "feral dogs" and although I know Angie did not say that she agrees release wolf-dogs but I just want to point out that although I lean against the over-breeding of wolfdogs slightly more than I lean against mass-producing of ANY dogs, I don't believe that ANY companions should be released into the wild. I also want to point out that I don't include the Saarloos, Czech, Lupo Italiano, Shikoku, or Kunming as wolfdogs because they're many generations away from the true wolves and are all officially recognized domestic dogs.

I'll also like to mention that I've heard too much complaints already from some wolfdog owners who are friends of mine being bullied by people from all over the place. Not listing the names of them for their safety, but they're doing their best to provide the best environment they can to their semi-exotic companions. And the worst thing to say in the presence of some people who love their high-content wolfdog very much is to say that "it belongs in the wild". Yes, a wild wolf SHOULD stay in the wild and not be brought into a domestic environment. But for wolfdogs (regardless of content) that already exist, I don't see them as true wolves nor do I see them as true wild animals. Yes they may sport some wild-like behaviours as they're wolf-dogs and yes some northern spitz can ALSO sport certain wild-like behaviours (I've seen a lot of that from Snoopy who is a pure dog), but they're a person's companion and it's bad enough that so many good owners like a woman who owns the Wolfdog Education for Beginners group on facebook are being attacked constantly by freaks all because they own high-content wolfdog crosses and some wanting those owning high-contents to part with them. I've had PM with such owners and it's not pretty.

Bottom line, I agree that the pure wild wolves (not the ones grown up in captivity) should stay in the wild, but wolfdogs do not belong in the wild! Many likely won't survive (even a pure wolf raised in captivity would have a hard time surviving in the wild due to the lack of experience) and some who do can end up adding dog traits like the rear dew claw problem to the wild wolves. There's already a big ongoing issue with this happening in Italy! Many wolves with that unwanted dew claw have been captured and from what I have read from countless sources need to be captured and removed to avoid influencing the genepool. The fact that wolves don't normally have it shows that these wolves are undoubtfully high-content wolfdogs as a result of them either crossing with feral dogs somewhere in their lines a few generations back OR with other wolfdogs. Some get put in zoos while other get castrated before being released with the dew claw removed. This is just one example of how the release of wolfdogs into the wild can do damage to the wolves. For those unaware, the rear dew claw, unlike the front, is not a desired trait because it's notorious for not being firmly attached to the bones and can snap more easily and cause the animal to become prone to infection and that's one of the reasons why it's removed in many dogs. It's not found in wolves but can easily be passed onto them from crossing with dogs or those wolfdogs with them and there is already cases of people dumping their wolfdogs in the forests when they can't raise them anymore.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3602741.stm
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tatzel » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:20 am

Well, honestly the wolf content issue doesn't really come as surprise.
I'm just a bit miffed that they're actually true.

I did defend Lynn both on dA and youtube in belief that there was no wolf content in the Tams, but there is (in some) appearently. People claimed there was wolf in these dogs and I told them they're wrong. But I was wrong, because I blieved a person I didn't even know.

I'm not bitter about it just a tad "meh."
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:46 am

Tatzel wrote:I did defend Lynn both on dA and youtube in belief that there was no wolf content in the Tams, but there is (in some) appearently. People claimed there was wolf in these dogs and I told them they're wrong. But I was wrong, because I blieved a person I didn't even know.

I'm not bitter about it just a tad "meh."
I think a lot of us did that at some point...

I have sent out all my humble pies in the form of apologies to those i accused of lying weather directly or indirectly... And there was A LOT :oops: ... Apparently, admitting one is wrong is good for the soul... i suspect mine to be very healthy right now :mrgreen: I was very please to see that all but one was very gracious about it...
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by AngieH » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:03 pm

I think many of you have missed the point.
So sorry, never mind.

Thank you to you who get it.

I don't go around persecuting wolf-dog owners and promoters.

I just didn't want to *be* one.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tatzel » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:09 pm

TerriHolt wrote: I think a lot of us did that at some point...

I have sent out all my humble pies in the form of apologies to those i accused of lying weather directly or indirectly... And there was A LOT :oops: ... Apparently, admitting one is wrong is good for the soul... i suspect mine to be very healthy right now :mrgreen: I was very please to see that all but one was very gracious about it...
It's sad to think about that she had our trust and that we did defend her, but basically she misused it. And appearently she doesn't want to understand that the cover ups and lies now come back to her because it was all initiated by her with her dishonesty.

I'm just glad I got to know all of this before getting a dog from her. I'll look for other breeders by the time I'll be ready to get a Tam now.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Mylingen » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:34 pm

Wow, I can't believe how many people have missed the point of this thread.
Angie, I completely understand what you mean.
Although I am a bit ambivalent and might one day want eg a sarloos or something similar, I too feel bad about the way these wild and proud animals have been used to create them.
Just wanted to say; I hear you.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:43 pm

I understand where your discussion wanted to go, Angie. This was meant to be a more philosophical and perhaps spiritual discussion about a humans relationship with nature and wilderness. (at least that's where I thought you were coming from.) Not about releasing our dogs into the wild because they might contain 6% wolf.

I'm happy to keep chatting. My Master's degree was practically 100% this discussion of "man's relationship with the natural world. what is it, and what should it be?" Should we "possess" nature or wilderness? (i.e. wolves) If so, is that a paternalistic slant on how we relate with the natural world? Is this dangerous? I should think so! There was a paternalistic relationship and attitude with Native Americans and look what happened there! To make my point brief (and not copy and paste my entire grad thesis--believe me you don't want to read it :lol: ) : If we continue down this road of believing that man has 'dominion over nature' then we are doomed to parish in environmental disaster. Wilderness and the natural world are essential for *our* survival. Look up ecofeminism and that'll lead you down a nice rabbit hole :)

Okay, sorry--my soap box. Yes, I'm an ecofeminist, and yes, I'm a biologist. Look out world. :lol:
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:04 pm

AngieH wrote:I think many of you have missed the point.
So sorry, never mind.

Thank you to you who get it.

I don't go around persecuting wolf-dog owners and promoters.

I just didn't want to *be* one.
Sorry Angie... :oops:
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Megaen » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:26 pm

Not trying to get off topic but....
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I also want to point out that I don't include the Saarloos, Czech, Lupo Italiano, Shikoku, or Kunming as wolfdogs because they're many generations away from the true wolves and are all officially recognized domestic dogs.

The Shikoku isn't a wolfdog nor was ever a wolf dog, of all the Nihon Ken the Shikoku does look close to the extinct Japanese wolf but there is no proof of this, other then someone listing them as such in Wikipedia and sorry that's no source for info lol


History:

The Shikoku is the rarest and most primitive of the japanese breeds.
It resembles a wolf, and legend has it that the breed has some wolf blood, but this is probably not he case. This belief probably arose mainly from the dog’s appearance, and from the fact that the wolf is thought to have survived longer on the island of Shikoku (the place of this dog’s origin) than elsewhere in Japan.

The Shikoku does look fierce,almost wild. Its stride is smooth and swift like a wolf, and it’s superb ability to leap makes it well suited to running trough mountains and hills.
It was protected and preserved for its skills in hunting(mainly wild boar) in the mountains and hills of the Shikoku Mountains in Kochi Prefecture, on Shikoku, the smallest of Japans’s four main islands,located southwest of the main island of Honshu.
It is also known as the Kochi inu, and was called Tosa inu in ancient times, but today it is called Shikoku to avoid confusion with another japanese breed, the Tosa fighting dog.
The Shikoku is thought to have been one of the dogs used as a basic for the Tosa fighting dog, but its physical build is completely different from that of the Tosa.
In the past, Shikoku lived with MATAGI, or hunters, in parts of western and northern Shikoku. These are the areas of steep mountains ranges and difficult of access, which limited interbreeding between these different location, with the result that the breed became divided into several lineages.
Shikoku dog can first be broadly categorized into dogs from the eastern Shikoku Mountains, called the Mount STsurugi strain, and those from the western mountains, called the Mount Ishizuchi strain. The Mount Tsurugi strain is further divede into the Tokushima (or Iya) strain, from the Northwestern foot of the mountains, and the Kochi Aki strain from the southeast.
The mount Ishizuchi is divided into three: The Ehime-ken Shuso-gun strain in the north, the Honkawa strain in the south, and to the southwest the Hata Uwahara strain.
Each of these strains originally had distinctive features in terms of physical build,which probably arose in response to the region’s different topographies.
Rugged terrain made many parts of Shikoku very difficult of access, resulting in the breed’s having a high degree of purity.
The fact that the bloodlines of these dogs could be traced historically through generations after generation led Nippo to make the Shikoku and the Kishu ,another medium sized breed that originated in a remote area, the basis for its Standard for all the Japanese breeds.
The Shikoku is energetic and highly alert and requires hard outdoor exercise. It is capable of forming a close bond with its owner, provided that the owner is experienced at handling dogs. It’s nature is to be loyal, independent,standoffish, and reserved. The dog can sometimes turn to people- even people it should know- and lunge or bite.
The coat of the Shikoku is double. The colour is usually sesame, or sometimes red, and very occasionally black. The Shikoku was designated a Protected Species in 1937. It is almost unknown outside Japan.

http://www.worldsocietyofshikokuken.com/shikoku.html

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:58 pm

Tatzel wrote:Well, honestly the wolf content issue doesn't really come as surprise.
I'm just a bit miffed that they're actually true.

I did defend Lynn both on dA and youtube in belief that there was no wolf content in the Tams, but there is (in some) appearently. People claimed there was wolf in these dogs and I told them they're wrong. But I was wrong, because I blieved a person I didn't even know.

I'm not bitter about it just a tad "meh."
You're not alone Rick, I was also pissed when I learnt the truth about the cover ups. While I personally don't care about the wolf-content as it's diluted now, I just wished that this truth was out earlier so that I and some of my relatives that have read these posts would have known and I would have thought: "oh, alright, so there's wolf somewhere in the Boogie line, still a suitable dog to raise as long as I properly socialize with it" instead of "Wow, how ironic after the way I defended Lynn and yet in the end some of the things said about the cover ups were true". :(

I still don't recommend Takari's No-Wolf Fable though because of the way it sounds very pointing and the tone of it making it not so objective.

On the bright side, the TDR is now in transition and we as a community will all continue to move forward with open transparency, integrity, and courtesy to all Tamthusiasts like yourself.

To Megaen: Thanks, learnt something everyday :)
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tatzel » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:14 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:You're not alone Rick, I was also pissed when I learnt the truth about the cover ups. While I personally don't care about the wolf-content as it's diluted now, I just wished that this truth was out earlier so that I and some of my relatives that have read these posts would have known and I would have thought: "oh, alright, so there's wolf somewhere in the Boogie line, still a suitable dog to raise as long as I properly socialize with it" instead of "Wow, how ironic after the way I defended Lynn and yet in the end some of the things said about the cover ups were true". :(
This.
I really don't care wether there is wolf content in the Tams or not, as long as they don't behave like wolves but like dogs, I -personally- don't have an issue with that.
What does get to me though is are the lies.

I find the back-to-back matings most upsetting though because inbreeding is the source of a lot, if not all diseases in pedigree dogs. Lynn always advertised that health is the first priority when it comes to breeding Tams, then comes anything else like temperament and looks.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:00 pm

Tatzel wrote:
I really don't care wether there is wolf content in the Tams or not, as long as they don't behave like wolves but like dogs, I -personally- don't have an issue with that.
What does get to me though is are the lies.

I find the back-to-back matings most upsetting though because inbreeding is the source of a lot, if not all diseases in pedigree dogs. Lynn always advertised that health is the first priority when it comes to breeding Tams, then comes anything else like temperament and looks.
For the wolfish behaviours, luckily MOST of the dogs behave like dogs and the stubbornness and shyness is only in some of the dogs but doing the math in comparison to some low-contents of true wolfdogs, I don't really think it's going to be TOO problematic for you as long as you get a dog from a line that did not have those problems.

Yes the lies have really shocked me as well. I can't even work up the energy to rage at this but that's probably the best since the last thing this community needs is more emotions going out of control. I also lean against inbreeding, line-breeding, and back to back mating in any form.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:00 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
For the wolfish behaviours, luckily MOST of the dogs behave like dogs and the stubbornness and shyness is only in some of the dogs but doing the math in comparison to some low-contents of true wolfdogs, I don't really think it's going to be TOO problematic for you as long as you get a dog from a line that did not have those problems.

Yes the lies have really shocked me as well. I can't even work up the energy to rage at this but that's probably the best since the last thing this community needs is more emotions going out of control. I also lean against inbreeding, line-breeding, and back to back mating in any form.
Lucas I need to step in here and respectfully disagree. Just because a few Tams come back with wolf markers doesn't mean that it will reflect in their behavior.

And also, what's wrong with line breeding? If all you do is outcross then your dogs will never breed true to type.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tiantai » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:29 pm

Sorry just to clarify, I don't support certain types of linebreeding such as Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson or Uncle to Niece, etc but I'm fine with breeding between DISTANT cousins as the younger ones have a more diverse DNA pattern than to breed back with an older relative whom the younger one already has much of the old DNA from them.


EDIT:
And I agree that the wolf part may NOT really be what's contributing to certain dog's behaviours. A lot of the northern spitz share much of the common traits with wolf's such and Tamaskans are mutts with many crossbreeds in the genepool so in the end I can't really say for sure if some of the problems I've read such as the ones with Loki and Winter were the result of the wolf gene as they might not be.
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:51 pm

I think what you suggest as line breeding (a breeding grandfather to granddaughter) is what most people would call inbreeding. At least I would. ;)
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Megaen » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:59 pm

As far as content goes, yes I know only one line was affected by this but, honestly I have no idea how big that line actually is so...... Here is a site that goes threw the hybrid laws for states http://www.hybridlaw.com/index.php

and other countries are included some go into detail as which F(_) are included in this law http://www.hybridlaw.com/international- ... -links.php

While I myself don't necessarily mind if you guys choose to not exclude this line of tamaskans please just let potential breeders and owners know and let them check there state/country law out.

This whole thing is just one big mess and more things keep getting messed up

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Megaen » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:02 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I think what you suggest as line breeding (a breeding grandfather to granddaughter) is what most people would call inbreeding. At least I would. ;)
I myself would call that inbreeding as well.....

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Tiantai » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:08 pm

You're right, they really should be called inbreeding and not line breeding. It's the way the books call those linebreeding :lol:
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Stormslegacy » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:38 am

I completely agree with the first post. If I had adopted one as was originally planned I'd be LIVID. One can read my introduction a couple months ago and see why.

Wolves are hurt by being in captivity. This is fact. Any ethical wolf-dog rescuer has seen the signs of stress in high-content animals or full wolves. They aren't meant for captivity and while the later generations may be OK it is UNACCEPTABLE to me that their parents were kept in conditions that didn't allow them to express natural behaviors. just because they are not bleeding or starving doesn't mean they're "fine." This is why I find wolf-breeding abhorrent, and no amount of "but it happens naturally!" or "mine was fine!" will change that for me. Many people have barn-blindness and can't admit when their animal just isn't.

Also, hybrid is the correct term. A minority changed dog into a subspecies of wolf in an effort to make the reintroduction of wolves in North America go smoother. It's not about the science, it was a decision based on politics. It's still not accepted in much of the international science community. It's a MYTH that different species produce sterile offspring--it *used* to be thought things worked that way but if that were true the entire canid family could be called Canis soupus because you can interbreed any of them successfully. The same is said for many members of the Felidae. I personally will continue to use the term.

There is bare minimum 10,000 years of difference between the wolf and the dog. The most important traits of the dog--the behavioral characteristics that matter like the ability to read a person--are not present in the wolf. Even breeds with recent wolf content, (CSV aside), it's minimal and was done as an experiment based on faulty premise. Sharpeis may be closer, but they're still domesticated and lack a number of traits associated with wild animals--like an exaggerated stress response to stimuli.

TBH I find it very hard to believe that the animals that tested positive all *happen* to be related to the ones that had been outed years ago.

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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Hawthorne » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Stormslegacy wrote: Also, hybrid is the correct term. A minority changed dog into a subspecies of wolf in an effort to make the reintroduction of wolves in North America go smoother. It's not about the science, it was a decision based on politics. It's still not accepted in much of the international science community. It's a MYTH that different species produce sterile offspring--it *used* to be thought things worked that way but if that were true the entire canid family could be called Canis soupus because you can interbreed any of them successfully. The same is said for many members of the Felidae. I personally will continue to use the term.
...
TBH I find it very hard to believe that the animals that tested positive all *happen* to be related to the ones that had been outed years ago.
Hiya!
Yes--this goes into a technical discussion about "what is a species." (Of course I know the definition.) But there are new findings in multiple species who cross with a different species and produce viable offspring. I think there was a dolphin, and another example was a shark. Of course the example that I use all the time are coyotes and Algonquin / Red wolves.

I always say wolf hybrid to distinguish between a wolf x dog cross and the wolfdog breeds (Sarloos and Czech). I just think there needs to be a distinction there.

But I'm curious about the last part of the quote up there. Do you mean you're surprised that the positive results point to the same ancestor in our pedigrees? What would you expect to see? I'm just trying to understand what you mean. Thanks :D
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Re: The "other" wolf content issue

Post by Stormslegacy » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:28 pm

I was merely correcting the several posts chiming in that the correct term is "wolfdog." ---It's not. One post in this thread detailed that since they interbreed and dog is a subspecies then they are the same species and not a hybrid. I should probably have quoted specific posts to be clearer =)

By the last sentence, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence as some people seem to be claiming >.> there is no doubt in my mind that there was a wolf used in the foundation stock. The law of Parsimony rules that it makes a lot more sense that the foundation stock used was part-wolf than that particular line testing positive due to coincidence.

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