wolf grey and silver grey

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Nino » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:26 pm

I personally would not like to see the white be an accepted color.

My reasoning being that we do not eg. white we distinguish ourselves from breed types like Utonagan and Northern Inuit, two types that already looks a LOT like Tamaskan Dogs.
By being more specific in the coloration, masking and white on the dogs (blazes, white tails, big amount of white spotting/irish and piebald) we are able to be more specific when people ask what the difference is.

Another reasoning of mine for not accepting white dogs is that it is not possible in some dogs (the ones that are entirely or almost entirely white) is that it is not possible to see faulty masking, white-spotting and piebald, which means that a dog with extreme blazing, a dog with border collie markings and even a piebald dog could be masked by a dog which is white, whereas it would be very clear with ALL other colorations..

There might be white Wolves, but they are not true whites, they are dogs that fade to white it would be possible to see all these things when a dog is born in these dogs if we just had the same coloration that arctic wolves have, then it would not be a problem.. but we don't ..


I am not saying that white Tamaskan's are not there, they clearly are. But I do think that purposely sending white dogs to breeding homes will not be a wise idea, when trying to keep the Tamaskan Dog type. Should an excellent White male or female however when adult be seen as a sublime speciment despite the coloration in conformation, temperament AND health, then dispensation could be sought to use it for a litter to produce a next generation and then a colored puppy kept..
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Whispyr » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:48 pm

This does make a lot of sense Nino, But I am confused about Piebald and white hiding the Piebald Spotting.

From what my research is showing me about Piebald, there is a genetic test for it. As well as a Piebald will have at least a small bit of another color somewhere. So far all extreme white dogs that have undergone genetic testing have been shown to be homozygous for the piebald gene (spsp). Sorry the text format didn't carry over, also lack of medical references typing this up on my break real quick. (Ref: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm)

It also mentions that Extreme white is caused by a different combination, which includes a w on the S locus which is different from the p.

Personally I would like to see "true" whites, and light creams accepted. As proven by genetic testing, observation and still adhering to all of our breed standard. Even though they do not phase the same as wolves from birth through the aging process, we are dealing with genetic dogs now. If the end color / build is the same, then would it not be acceptable since arctic wolves are a type of wolf as well? A suggestion for classification would be "Arctic" or "Arctic Grey" Even though there may not be much grey, the point is that it be true to breed standard and the arctic wolf coloring. I would also propose to include an ear test (BAER?) for any white breeding dogs, or dogs likely to have white pups.

Another difference with the Arctic wolves, is that the arctic wolves do appear to be a bit "fluffier" for lack of a more technical way to put it.

I recall a discussion where there is already different "types" with the current colors, such as the European wolves, vs North American. This isn't as obvious of a distinction as the stark coloring of the white, but it is a similar topic.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Vajente » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:09 pm

these white pups aren't extreme white but recessive reds(e/e) like swiss shepherds
and e/e isn't linked to deafness

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Valravn » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:17 pm

I'm confused. What pups are we talking about? Are there pictures?

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Vajente » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:33 pm

the Ziva/Avak litter

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:47 pm

Vajente wrote:the Ziva/Avak litter
Apparently these outcross pups won't be registered with the TDR so I guess there's not much point debating the addition of a new coat color to the official breed standard at this time. Regardless, hopefully all the puppies will be coat color tested via MyDogDNA Pass, which will provide very important information for future breeders to take into account. ;)
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:29 am

Sylvaen wrote: Apparently these outcross pups won't be registered with the TDR
What?! Why not? :?
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Nino » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:15 am

well I guess if they do not register them then it is not a problem (and also they should probably not be allowed to advertise the puppies or the litter on the TDR sites)
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Katlin » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:34 am

Nino wrote:well I guess if they do not register them then it is not a problem (and also they should probably not be allowed to advertise the puppies or the litter on the TDR sites)
I definitely agree.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:12 am

Sorry for looking all confused. I have not been keeping update much so I would be happy if someone could fill me in on this. I thought Ziva's outcross was planned for a long time. So why is it that now that she's produced her puppies, they will not be registered? Was there something that Marion did that was considered wrong? I can see that Ziva has also been removed from the foundation dog list on the official website.
Vajente wrote:white is on this moment not an accepted color (and I hope it's not going to be either)

white and cream are the same btw, they are e/e which is recessive red, recessive reds can be as light as looking white or a deep red color and everything in between.
Not to get off topic but I have been told that tetrachromats can see a slight difference between cream colours and white colours. The former being slightly pinkish red to them.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Booma » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:57 am

Tiantai wrote:
Not to get off topic but I have been told that tetrachromats can see a slight difference between cream colours and white colours. The former being slightly pinkish red to them.

It doesn't matter if the colour is slightly different, it is genetically the same.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:04 pm

Tiantai wrote:Sorry for looking all confused. I have not been keeping update much so I would be happy if someone could fill me in on this. I thought Ziva's outcross was planned for a long time. So why is it that now that she's produced her puppies, they will not be registered? Was there something that Marion did that was considered wrong? I can see that Ziva has also been removed from the foundation dog list on the official website.
Just to clarify: Yes, Ziva was approved as an official outcross (Foundation Dog) and this outcross litter was planned for a long time. Marion did NOT do anything wrong; however, it seems that she (along with several of the other Dutch breeders) have decided not to register their litters with the TDR anymore... only with the NTC. I've asked several times if this litter would be registered with the TDR but my posts went ignored and, to date, the TDR has not heard anything else regarding this litter being officially registered with the TDR (only that litters born in the Netherlands would now be registered with the NTC instead). It's a shame because I was hoping that this litter, as with other recent outcross litters (in Germany etc) would be registered with the TDR.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:32 pm

As for litters born under the members of the NTC. We leave our members free where to register their litter as long as this is under the TDR, the german club or the dutch club ( or other clubs if they start ,that uphold at least the minimum requirements of the TDR). We also accept the dogs registered under one of these 3.

We also have members that register themselves with the NTC as well as the TDR. We also have no problems with that either.
While the breeders choose for instance that they register their litter under the NTC but the new owner wants to go up for a registration by the TDR we also have no problem with that.

SOme just have problems with how some things goes and regardless members of the TDR and the dutch and german clubs tried to resolve some things there is just to many to resolve before people will step away totally,
In our eyes this is a good way to not let everything fall apart like so many times happened in the past and who knows where the future leads to

Both german and dutch group already have shown that we stay open for working together so we hope the TDR also stay open for that because working together needs both sides ;)

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:08 pm

Miran wrote:As for litters born under the members of the NTC. We leave our members free where to register their litter as long as this is under the TDR, the german club or the dutch club ( or other clubs if they start ,that uphold at least the minimum requirements of the TDR). We also accept the dogs registered under one of these 3.

We also have members that register themselves with the NTC as well as the TDR. We also have no problems with that either.
While the breeders choose for instance that they register their litter under the NTC but the new owner wants to go up for a registration by the TDR we also have no problem with that.
Would it not make sense for litters to be registered with BOTH the TDR and the National Clubs? Instead of one or the other? (especially if pups from those litters will be living outside the country where they were born... TDR registration is international and, for instance, Dutch pups going to live in the USA could then qualify for ARBA registration via their TDR registration.) Also, a registration document all written in Dutch (or German) isn't much use to an English-speaking American, for instance.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:02 pm

I can see your point Debby BUT it is up to the breeders ;)
And the registrations form from the NTC for a pup in germany or England or USA will be written in their language ;)
Other country's like maybe france or croatia or finland etc will be done in English or if the persons want in their own language but then they need to help translating

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:21 pm

Miran wrote:I can see your point Debby BUT it is up to the breeders ;)
And the registrations form from the NTC for a pup in germany or England or USA will be written in their language ;)
Other country's like maybe france or croatia or finland etc will be done in English or if the persons want in their own language but then they need to help translating
OK :)

Also, with regard to outcross litters: will those puppies receive Conditional Registration, and then Full / Limited Registration when they come of age depending on how they turn out? I'm just wondering if there are any differences between TDR Registration protocols and NTC Registration protocols.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:43 pm

Yes out-cross pups get conditional registration and have to be evaluated again before they get limited or full registration.

The registration is kind the same and we also use the numbers like we have agreed on when we came together on that in the working group ;)

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tana » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:57 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Vajente wrote:the Ziva/Avak litter
Apparently these outcross pups won't be registered with the TDR so I guess there's not much point debating the addition of a new coat color to the official breed standard at this time. Regardless, hopefully all the puppies will be coat color tested via MyDogDNA Pass, which will provide very important information for future breeders to take into account. ;)
What about the white puppy from Oslett? As far as I know this litter is registered with the TDR.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:22 am

Tana wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Vajente wrote:the Ziva/Avak litter
Apparently these outcross pups won't be registered with the TDR so I guess there's not much point debating the addition of a new coat color to the official breed standard at this time. Regardless, hopefully all the puppies will be coat color tested via MyDogDNA Pass, which will provide very important information for future breeders to take into account. ;)
What about the white puppy from Oslett? As far as I know this litter is registered with the TDR.
That puppy, and the rest of the litter, will all be registered with the TDR. As with all outcross litters, the puppies will get Conditional Registration paperwork. When they are 12 months old they can be individually evaluated to see if they qualify for Full Registration (eligible for future breeding).
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:32 am

besides that I personal really really hate white for a tamaskan color........................
It doesn't have to mean that this pup can not have full registration after evaluation is it?

Because in my eyes if it grows out with good health, structure and temperament it still can be in a good combination a betterment. Also knowing here that the whites are e/e , you can test on it now so IF it stays a fault either way you can breed it out again

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tana » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:24 am

Miran wrote: It doesn't have to mean that this pup can not have full registration after evaluation is it?

Because in my eyes if it grows out with good health, structure and temperament it still can be in a good combination a betterment. Also knowing here that the whites are e/e , you can test on it now so IF it stays a fault either way you can breed it out again
That's what I was wondering...

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:28 pm

Miran wrote:Because in my eyes if it grows out with good health, structure and temperament it still can be in a good combination a betterment. Also knowing here that the whites are e/e , you can test on it now so IF it stays a fault either way you can breed it out again
Of course... first we look at health, then temperament, and then appearance (first: body conformation / structure, then tail carriage, and then coloring / masking, etc... down to the smaller details). At that time, I think we can decide whether to officially allow cream (e/e) as an acceptable color pattern. At this point, the pups are still too young for us to know if they will tun out to look wolfy (like white arctic wolves) or doggy (like white Swiss Shepherds). Time will tell. :)

I think it is also very important for all breeding (and potential breeding) dogs to be tested via MyDogDNA Pass so we can see what OTHER colors / traits that dog might also carry... for instance, a cream (e/e) dog could also carry liver or piebald (as could any other Tamaskan, depending on the bloodline). I hope that S locus (white spotting) will also be added to the MyDogDNA Pass so we can see which dogs also carry white spotting (piebald). Just looking at a dog only tells us half the story; it's important to know the genes they carry too... only then can we make a truly informed decision.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:35 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
I think it is also very important for all breeding (and potential breeding) dogs to be tested via MyDogDNA Pass
agree here but not just because of the colors. Breeding tamaskans of the NTC and other outcrosses IN the NTC have the MyDogDna now as one of the mandatory test for those dogs after I think it was 1 januari 2014 but not sure about the date...have to read it again then.......of course because we do work with others that don't have that yet we can't have every combination (yet) with only dogs that have the test ;)

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:39 pm

Miran wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
I think it is also very important for all breeding (and potential breeding) dogs to be tested via MyDogDNA Pass
agree here but not just because of the colors. Breeding tamaskans of the NTC and other outcrosses IN the NTC have the MyDogDna now as one of the mandatory test for those dogs after I think it was 1 januari 2014 but not sure about the date...have to read it again then.......of course because we do work with others that don't have that yet we can't have every combination (yet) with only dogs that have the test ;)
correction it is: reeding dogs that are registered after October 1, 2013 must have MyDogDNA test to be admitted for breeding

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by HiTenshi16 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:06 pm

So I'm curious what the thoughts are about this. Say your mating produces a white pup from an outcross mating, so it has Conditional Registration as the rest of the litter. As a breeder, you try to give what you think are the best pups for future breeding to a breeding home, and any with many or major faults to pet only homes. With a white pup being a fault, would you allow it to go to a breeding home?

Also, should we make a poll to get a better idea of what everyone thinks if white should be accepted and no longer a fault?
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Katlin » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:57 pm

Personally I don't think it's a fault. There are white wolves and isn't our goal to get healthy dogs that look like wolves? I don't think there should be liver, or spotting, but I see no problem with white.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Valravn » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:33 pm

I'm torn. One the ones side there are white wolves. On the other white dogs tend to not look very wolfy. If everything else were perfect (straight tails, thick coats, small ears, etc.) then I would be totally fine with white Tams.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:18 am

So Ziva's cream pups are not registered with the TDR but are registered with the Dutch club. Does this mean hypothetically, if they passed all the health tests etc, would/could the Dutch club let them become breeding dogs? Could anyone involved with the Dutch club confirm?

It seems that more people are pro adding cream to the standard than not (with the condition of responsible breeding and health tests etc). Even those who don't like the colour as a personal preference have mentioned they see no reason why they can't be bred provided that they pass the health tests etc.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:26 am

chelle784 wrote:So Ziva's cream pups are not registered with the TDR but are registered with the Dutch club. Does this mean hypothetically, if they passed all the health tests etc, would/could the Dutch club let them become breeding dogs? Could anyone involved with the Dutch club confirm?
Yes that's correct. At the moment we see no reason to exclude the creams for breeding as long as they (of course) pass all their health testing, have good temperaments and structure. Because it is an outcross litter all pups have been registered conditionally, so we will evaluate all of the pups after their 1st birthday.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Katlin » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:01 am

How is evaluation done and what sorts of things does it include? Does a NTC member have to physically visit each potential breeding puppy?
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:23 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:
chelle784 wrote:So Ziva's cream pups are not registered with the TDR but are registered with the Dutch club. Does this mean hypothetically, if they passed all the health tests etc, would/could the Dutch club let them become breeding dogs? Could anyone involved with the Dutch club confirm?
Yes that's correct. At the moment we see no reason to exclude the creams for breeding as long as they (of course) pass all their health testing, have good temperaments and structure. Because it is an outcross litter all pups have been registered conditionally, so we will evaluate all of the pups after their 1st birthday.
That sounds really good! So in the case that the TDR doesn't approve white dogs as breeding dogs based on the colour, it is actually more beneficial for breeders in the Netherlands to register their pups with the Dutch club who will look to see if the pup passes all their health /temperament/ structural tests and place importance on these (heath/structure/temperament) over a colour that can easily be bred out.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:42 pm

Katlin wrote:How is evaluation done and what sorts of things does it include? Does a NTC member have to physically visit each potential breeding puppy?
A temperament test and a structural assessment. We already have a member of our club for the temperament testing, who has the right qualifications. We haven't discussed the structural assessment part yet, probably will find an outside party for this (dog show judge). Most breed clubs in the Netherlands who asses breeding dogs organize a special day (once or twice a year) where the owners will be invited to come and participate with their dogs. I think we might do something like that, and we will probably arrange this for all breeding dogs, not just pups from outcross litters.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:44 pm

chelle784 wrote:
Wolfsbane wrote:
chelle784 wrote:So Ziva's cream pups are not registered with the TDR but are registered with the Dutch club. Does this mean hypothetically, if they passed all the health tests etc, would/could the Dutch club let them become breeding dogs? Could anyone involved with the Dutch club confirm?
Yes that's correct. At the moment we see no reason to exclude the creams for breeding as long as they (of course) pass all their health testing, have good temperaments and structure. Because it is an outcross litter all pups have been registered conditionally, so we will evaluate all of the pups after their 1st birthday.
That sounds really good! So in the case that the TDR doesn't approve white dogs as breeding dogs based on the colour, it is actually more beneficial for breeders in the Netherlands to register their pups with the Dutch club who will look to see if the pup passes all their health /temperament/ structural tests and place importance on these (heath/structure/temperament) over a colour that can easily be bred out.
Indeed :)
And btw, we also accept members from outside of the Netherlands.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:01 pm

chelle784 wrote:a colour that can easily be bred out.
It cannot be easily bred out if actual cream dogs are used for breeding; on the contrary, it will increase the incidence within the breed and will result in almost all bloodlines carrying the trait, which means almost all future litters will produce some cream puppies.

To use an analogy (without the health risks) it is like breeding from a DM At Risk dog: both carry 2 copies of the recessive genes.

DM Clear = N/N
DM Carrier = N/A
DM At Risk = A/A

Normal = E/E
Cream Carrier = E/e
Cream = e/e

Cream X Normal will produce ALL Cream carriers.
Carrier X Carrier will produce 50% Carriers, 25% Normal and 25% Cream.
Cream X Carrier will produce 50% Carriers and 50% Cream.

Arguably, there is nothing to stop a breeder from breeding 2 carriers together to produce Cream puppies for the pet homes that want them... without having to change the official breed standard to cater to personal preferences, which might detract from the breed's overall 'wolfy' appearance and result in a "contamination" (prevalence) of this trait within Tamaskan bloodlines.

Yes, "white" arctic wolves do exist in the wild but this is not the same as the cream color that is currently popping up in Tamaskan bloodlines, which is a DOG trait; the same as Liver and Blue and Piebald, which also do not exist in true wild wolf populations. Arctic wolves are born dark grey and their final 'white' coloring (as adults) is not solid white but, rather, off-white mixed with cream and silver and darker black guard-hairs / overlay.

If we add Cream as an acceptable color, we may as well consider adding Liver as an acceptable color too... it is no different in my view (both are recessive dog colors that currently exist, albeit rarely, in Tamaskan bloodlines). Both cream and liver can potentially look wolfy (and, indeed beautiful) depending on the body structure / coat length / eye color / ear size / tail carriage / etc but is it an inherently "wolfy" trait seen in true wild wolves? No. The same goes for the 'blue' (dilute black) coloring.

Personally, I will aim to create light silver grey / white Tamaskans using the normal aw/aw Tams that do meet the breed standard... they will have masking and guard-hairs / overlay, and will look like Summer, Skye, Vega, Mika, Inkantan, etc... more like actual arctic wolves, less like White Swiss Shepherds (solid white). ;)

I still hope to see a separate color category added for the classification of the light silver/white grey Tams (aw/aw) that already exist, which DO meet the current breed standard:

Black Grey
Red Grey
Wolf Grey
Light Grey
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:43 pm

Sorry - I guess 'easily bred out' was the wrong terminology. What I meant was you can test for it can't you? So then if you want to prevent it in a future litter you can? Unlike other faults that you can't test for. Unless my understanding is incorrect!

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Katlin » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:44 pm

Sylvaen wrote:Yes, "white" arctic wolves do exist in the wild but this is not the same as the cream color that is currently popping up in Tamaskan bloodlines, which is a DOG trait; the same as Liver and Blue and Piebald, which also do not exist in true wild wolf populations. Arctic wolves are born dark grey and their final 'white' coloring (as adults) is not solid white but, rather, off-white mixed with cream and silver and darker black guard-hairs / overlay.
Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
528140_323640094395273_434779557_n.jpg
And now looks like this:
1476340_563419637083983_1918303166_n.jpg
From the searches and pictures I've pulled up it looks like a lot of them start out an orangey white, some are pure white, and some are lighter brown-grey.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:43 pm

chelle784 wrote:Sorry - I guess 'easily bred out' was the wrong terminology. What I meant was you can test for it can't you? So then if you want to prevent it in a future litter you can? Unlike other faults that you can't test for. Unless my understanding is incorrect!
Yes, you can test for it but if many dogs are carriers then it will be hard to avoid... especially if we are more focused on health (as we should be) and have no choice but to breed 2 cream carriers since any other combination would be too closely related or have an increased risk of health problems. It's not like we have a huge selection of available breeding dogs to choose from, unfortunately. The way I see it, some people love liver color, others love piebald, others love cream... these genes already exist in the Tamaskan breed (in small quantities) which is why they pop up from time to time, but not too often. For instance, it has been years since the last true piebald dog was added to the breed, but there are enough bloodlines carrying the trait that White Spotting can still appear generations down the line. The moment one of those recessive colors (liver, cream, piebald) is officially accepted, you will start to see more and more of it popping up and, eventually, in every litter... the same goes if we introduce a whole new color (blue merle, brindle, dominant black, etc). You can test for almost all color faults, the problem is that most breeders simply don't bother.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:56 pm

Katlin wrote:Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
Yes, that's a wolfdog... carrying dog genes. ;)

Wild baby arctic wolves:


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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:07 pm

ahhh so cuuttteee

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tiantai » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:12 pm

Sometimes when reading back on older posts on cream coats, I can't help but to wonder, since various Gray wolf subspecies out there have winter-colour coats (Canis lupus orion, Canis lupus hudsonicus, Canis lupus arctos, Canis lupus tundrarum, Canis lupus mackenzii, etc), and some have yellowish coats (for East-Asian wolves Canis lupus laniger, Canis lupus himalayensis, Canis lupus pallipes), or even yellowish-green (Northeast African wolves Canis lupus lupaster), then why can't these coats be considered appropriate for Tamaskans too?

Cream is now a hot debate as far as I have seen, but as for the others...
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:56 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Katlin wrote:Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
Yes, that's a wolfdog... carrying dog genes. ;)
But we are breeding dogs and not wolves, so long as the outcome is a wolfy look, it should not matter if the creme pups are born light or dark at the beginning.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Katlin » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:15 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Katlin wrote:Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
Yes, that's a wolfdog... carrying dog genes. ;)
But we are breeding dogs and not wolves, so long as the outcome is a wolfy look, it should not matter if the creme pups are born light or dark at the beginning.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:05 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Katlin wrote:Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
Yes, that's a wolfdog... carrying dog genes. ;)
But we are breeding dogs and not wolves, so long as the outcome is a wolfy look, it should not matter if the creme pups are born light or dark at the beginning.
Indeed, but the cream color (as a dog trait) means that their coats simply won't have any dark guard-hairs or grey shading as seen in arctic wolves... cream Tams will be white like White Swiss Shepherds with perhaps a hint of cream behind their ears or on their legs.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Booma » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:31 pm

Wouldn't Arctic wolf pups be born dark purely for camouflage purposes? Personally I don't like the light grey tams, and don't think they look like Arctic wolves. White pups are going to pop up anyway, there are tams carryIng the e gene - for example zelda. While Jo could avoid any male that carried white as well, there might be a dog that is a better match and carries white. Maybe we could put some restrictions on whites - they can't be bred to a another white and /or a carrier of white. Or the owner must apply for them to be used. It would be a shame if someone had a white tamaskan that structurally fit the standard perfectly and had great test results but they couldn't breed it just because of its colour. And before you say it - no it won't happen with piebalds - there are no spotty wolves, so we will never add that colour.
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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:33 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
chelle784 wrote:a colour that can easily be bred out.
It cannot be easily bred out if actual cream dogs are used for breeding; on the contrary, it will increase the incidence within the breed and will result in almost all bloodlines carrying the trait, which means almost all future litters will produce some cream puppies.

Arguably, there is nothing to stop a breeder from breeding 2 carriers together to produce Cream puppies for the pet homes that want them... without having to change the official breed standard to cater to personal preferences, which might detract from the breed's overall 'wolfy' appearance and result in a "contamination" (prevalence) of this trait within Tamaskan bloodlines.
This isn't going to happen... unless every Tamaskan breeder would suddenly decide to breed for cream Tamaskan. It is a recessive trait, so it will show up on occasion. Most people do not like the color, most people want a wolf grey Tamaskan. Who is going to breed cream Tamaskan? Maybe 1 or 2, out of 50 breeding Tamaskan? Yes the impact will be huge... NOT! The NI allow cream, the Utes allow cream... how many of their dogs are actually cream?? 5% maybe? How many cream Saarloos Wolfdogs do you know? They are pretty much extinct, because most people don't like it.

I can understand why people wouldn't want this color to be accepted, and I understand why people might not like the color. But saying creams would take over the whole breed if it would become an accepted color is really exaggerated.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by balto13 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:45 pm

correct me if I am wrong, but aren't liver and piebald on different locus than white? and why is this being compared to white when I have yet to hear that anybody wants liver or piebald added

and silver/light grey is just a lighter shade of an already existing color?

Some of the wolf and red grey tams looks like shepherd, czech, saarloos, or husky mixes that does not mean that they don't have wolfy traits or cannot pass on wolfy traits with the right mate (isn't wolfy a subjective term?) so saying that adding white could mean that *some* tams could look like WSS is a bit, idk the word I am looking for :oops: but not a very valid argument against adding whites. IMO

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:57 pm

I personally do like the light silver grey colours but I don't think they look more like arctic wolves.

It's not the lack of grey undercoat that makes the cream tams look less wolfy, it's the fact that they are dogs and not wolves. Just like most tamaskans look like wolfy dogs and not wolves. The breed is still developing and it's more than just colour right now which makes a tam look more/less wolfy.

I think adding cream is different to adding liver or piebalds because of the resemblance (not exact copy) to the arctic wolf.

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:00 am

Katlin wrote:
HiTenshi16 wrote: But we are breeding dogs and not wolves, so long as the outcome is a wolfy look, it should not matter if the creme pups are born light or dark at the beginning.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

same here! whites might not 100% reflect arctic wolves but like you said, we're not trying to breed wolves and there *could* be wolfier looking whites in the future :)

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:02 am

chelle784 wrote:I personally do like the light silver grey colours but I don't think they look more like arctic wolves.

It's not the lack of grey undercoat that makes the cream tams look less wolfy, it's the fact that they are dogs and not wolves. Just like most tamaskans look like wolfy dogs and not wolves. The breed is still developing and it's more than just colour right now which makes a tam look more/less wolfy.

I think adding cream is different to adding liver or piebalds because of the resemblance (not exact copy) to the arctic wolf.
Well said :)

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Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:09 am

because the e/e is not dominant the white will not overrule in the breed as long as breeders are not going to breed on the white. If they don't it will disappear again in a few years just count my words....saw it happen before.....

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