wolf grey and silver grey

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
User avatar
Wolfsbane
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:26 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:15 am

Gorgeous no? Or do these look like White Shepherds because they are solid white without any greying??
wolf1.jpg
wolf2.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Valravn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Valravn » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:24 am

They look wolflike because of other physical traits. Small ears, thick coat, bushy tail, slanted yellow eyes. The white coat doesn't enhance the wolf look.
(The wooly one looks like a werewolf! lol)

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:29 am

Wolfsbane wrote:Gorgeous no? Or do these look like White Shepherds because they are solid white without any greying??

the top picture is my favorite! :D

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:47 am

I think Wolfsbane made a good point and this has been mentioned in passing in previous posts - it is the STRUCTURE of the dog that makes some Tamaskans look more wolfy than others, regardless of color.

So in my opinion, wouldn't it be a good idea to work towards breeding a more wolfy structure in the Tamaskan than to add colors for what seems to be the sole argument of 'white/cream wolves exist in the wild'? Color is an aesthetic trait in the dog and from the discussion that I'm seeing, is more easily bred out/in than structure. Like I had pointed out in the previous paragraph - it's the structure that makes a Tam look wolfy. Not color. Color merely ENHANCES the wolfy look given the dog has the right structure we're looking for.

User avatar
chelle784
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:38 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:02 am

arianwenarie wrote:I think Wolfsbane made a good point and this has been mentioned in passing in previous posts - it is the STRUCTURE of the dog that makes some Tamaskans look more wolfy than others, regardless of color.

So in my opinion, wouldn't it be a good idea to work towards breeding a more wolfy structure in the Tamaskan than to add colors for what seems to be the sole argument of 'white/cream wolves exist in the wild'? Color is an aesthetic trait in the dog and from the discussion that I'm seeing, is more easily bred out/in than structure. Like I had pointed out in the previous paragraph - it's the structure that makes a Tam look wolfy. Not color. Color merely ENHANCES the wolfy look given the dog has the right structure we're looking for.
It also seems to be the argument for not adding it too (that it's not wolfy like). The people saying that they don't see a problem with adding white are not using the argument that white/cream exists in the wild. The ongoing argument that seems to be going on here and on the fb debate group is why is white/ cream NOT accepted for breeding purposes if everything else (healthwise/structure/temperament etc) is fine so therefore placing more of an importance on the structure/health than the actual colour itself (like the Dutch club). Nobody is wanting to add the white to the standard to breed white tams only.

So basically I agree with what you have just said - just pointing out that 'there are white wolves' is not the argument but merely a response to those saying 'white is not wolfy'

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:04 am

chelle784 wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:I think Wolfsbane made a good point and this has been mentioned in passing in previous posts - it is the STRUCTURE of the dog that makes some Tamaskans look more wolfy than others, regardless of color.

So in my opinion, wouldn't it be a good idea to work towards breeding a more wolfy structure in the Tamaskan than to add colors for what seems to be the sole argument of 'white/cream wolves exist in the wild'? Color is an aesthetic trait in the dog and from the discussion that I'm seeing, is more easily bred out/in than structure. Like I had pointed out in the previous paragraph - it's the structure that makes a Tam look wolfy. Not color. Color merely ENHANCES the wolfy look given the dog has the right structure we're looking for.
It also seems to be the argument for not adding it too (that it's not wolfy like). The people saying that they don't see a problem with adding white are not using the argument that white/cream exists in the wild. The ongoing argument that seems to be going on here and on the fb debate group is why is white/ cream NOT accepted for breeding purposes if everything else (healthwise/structure/temperament etc) is fine so therefore placing more of an importance on the structure/health than the actual colour itself (like the Dutch club). Nobody is wanting to add the white to the standard to breed white tams only.

So basically I agree with what you have just said - just pointing out that 'there are white wolves' is not the argument but merely a response to those saying 'white is not wolfy'
Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. :)

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Tiantai » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:34 am

Well come to think of it, it's not just White Shepherds or breeds with the cream who have been bred to wolves for that winter white appearance. Great Pyrenese are also commonly used in many wolfdogs and arctic mutts for that cream look too and personally I think it shouldn't be all about "wolfy" looks in the Tamaskan. Yes the breed has been described as "wolf-like" in appearance to some extent but if cream coats do exist in adult wolves then I don't see the point of all this fuss of that white puppy will grow into an adult white "wolfdog-looking" dog anyways. Like you said, these are dogs afterall and not wolves that you are breeding so personally I don't think it should matter if the white pups don't look wolfish in puppyhood. I am fully aware that pure wolf and even white coyote puppies cannot be born white and that the trait must be developed as they mature but I think the white in puppies would also in turn be beneficial as it creates a dead giveaway that the pup is NOT a wolf and I assume we don't want people thinking that they are wolves or high-contents anyway despite those mild wolf-contents in some lines.
Image

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Taz » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:25 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't believe the tamaskan is at the stage where potentially valuable genetic material in terms of diversity, should be lost due to arbitrary things like colour and incorrect masking.
Perhaps when the breed has an effective population size that isn't comparable to a critically endangered species, then you can insist on a stricter standard, especially if the intention is to put the breed into a closed registry breeding system.
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:39 pm

Booma wrote:White pups are going to pop up anyway, there are tams carryIng the e gene - for example zelda. While Jo could avoid any male that carried white as well, there might be a dog that is a better match and carries white.
Exactly... the trait already exists in the breed (via Summer, Skye, Heidi, Bodie, Avak, Ziva, Jaegar, Sharayah, etc) and many bloodlines already carry it but, up until now, only a few breeders have bothered with DNA testing. As more dogs are tested, I think we will find that many more breeding dogs are cream carriers. In future generations we will see it more often as these carriers are bred together. It isn't such a big issue, as these cream pups can go to pet homes; they seem to be in demand, so it shouldn't be a problem if a breeder wants to produce them, even if they don't fit the breed standard (at present). Liver and piebald will also pop up from time to time, and those puppies will go to pet homes (not for future breeding). The question is, do we want to allow cream as an acceptable color? If we do, they will be used for breeding and so more creams and cream carriers will be produced.
Booma wrote:Maybe we could put some restrictions on whites - they can't be bred to a another white and /or a carrier of white. Or the owner must apply for them to be used.
It wouldn't really be fair to restrict the color... either we allow it as an accepted color, or we don't. If we allow it, then individual breeders can choose to freely mate a cream Tamaskan with any other Tamaskan breeding dog, regardless of that dog's color or the genes that it carries.
Booma wrote:It would be a shame if someone had a white tamaskan that structurally fit the standard perfectly and had great test results but they couldn't breed it just because of its colour.
I agree. BUT then the same could also be said for liver, which is carried on a different loci (b)... but the same logic applies. Like cream (ee), liver (bb) is a recessive color that already exists in the breed... so your sentence could easily be rephrased as "It would be a shame if someone had a liver tamaskan that structurally fit the standard perfectly and had great test results but they couldn't breed it just because of its colour."

To be the devil's advocate: we have people stating that body structure, health and temperament being more important than color (rightly so)... but then, arguably, using the same "pro cream" logic, why shouldn't a PERFECT liver Tam (excellent conformation, wonderful coat, straight tail, yellow eyes, excellent hip score, DM clear, amazing temperament, etc) also be used for breeding? The reason is because liver is a restricted color (a disqualifying fault) according to the current breed standard. Why? Because liver is not a trait seen in wild wolves... BUT I am sure there are people out there who love the color, just as some people love blue, or merle, or brindle. At what point do we say that a certain color is a big enough issue to disqualify that dog from breeding, despite being otherwise exceptional?
Wolfsbane wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
chelle784 wrote:a colour that can easily be bred out.
It cannot be easily bred out if actual cream dogs are used for breeding; on the contrary, it will increase the incidence within the breed and will result in almost all bloodlines carrying the trait, which means almost all future litters will produce some cream puppies.

Arguably, there is nothing to stop a breeder from breeding 2 carriers together to produce Cream puppies for the pet homes that want them... without having to change the official breed standard to cater to personal preferences, which might detract from the breed's overall 'wolfy' appearance and result in a "contamination" (prevalence) of this trait within Tamaskan bloodlines.
This isn't going to happen... unless every Tamaskan breeder would suddenly decide to breed for cream Tamaskan. It is a recessive trait, so it will show up on occasion. Most people do not like the color, most people want a wolf grey Tamaskan. Who is going to breed cream Tamaskan? Maybe 1 or 2, out of 50 breeding Tamaskan? Yes the impact will be huge... NOT! The NI allow cream, the Utes allow cream... how many of their dogs are actually cream?? 5% maybe? How many cream Saarloos Wolfdogs do you know? They are pretty much extinct, because most people don't like it.

I can understand why people wouldn't want this color to be accepted, and I understand why people might not like the color. But saying creams would take over the whole breed if it would become an accepted color is really exaggerated.
I'm not saying that cream dogs will take over the whole breed, but that cream carriers will become more prevalent... the more breeding dogs that carry the trait, the more often that color will pop up in future litters. How many breeding dogs, RIGHT NOW, are cream carriers? Out of all the Tamaskan breeding dogs (and future breeding dogs) around the world, how many have yet been DNA tested to see if they carry cream? For all we know, we might already have many cream carriers worldwide...
balto13 wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but aren't liver and piebald on different locus than white? and why is this being compared to white when I have yet to hear that anybody wants liver or piebald added
Yes.
Cream = E locus
Liver = B locus
Piebald = S locus

The reason it is being compared is simple:
1) all 3 colors are recessively inherited;
2) all 3 colors already exist within the Tamaskan breed (in the sense that some Tamaskan breeding dogs are carriers of these color patterns);
3) all 3 colors are currently considered a disqualifying fault according to the breed standard;
4) all 3 colors pop up from time to time, whenever two carriers are bred together.

The arguments I hear for accepting cream as an official color are based on:
1) some people like the color
2) conformation, health, and temperament are more important than color
3) arctic wolves are white
Miran wrote:because the e/e is not dominant the white will not overrule in the breed as long as breeders are not going to breed on the white. If they don't it will disappear again in a few years just count my words....saw it happen before.....
Indeed, but some breeders DO want to breed on the white... that's the whole point. ;)
It seems there are 3 or 4 breeders (and future breeders) who would readily use these dogs for breeding if the color was accepted... somewhat worryingly, these dogs are still just puppies yet already some breeders (and future breeders) are planning to use them for future breeding without even waiting to see how they will turn out first, simply because of their coloring. Keep in mind, all the recent cream pups are the result of OUTCROSS litters: Avak x Ziva and Jaegar x Sharayah. Right now, all we have to go on is color because we really have no idea what they will look like as adults. What size will they be? How long and thick will their coats be? What eye color will they have? How large will their ears be? How will their tail carriage be (will their tails curl like a husky, or will they be sickle-shaped like a German Shepherd... or will they be bushy and straight like a wolf)? It just concerns me that everyone is so focused on color right now, which is why I think it would probably be best to wait until we see how those pups turn out (once they are 12 months old) and then decide. At this point I think it would be too soon to say that those puppies can definitely be used for future breeding, simply because we don't know what their health, temperament and conformation will be like.

I have a similar situation with my current (outcross) litter... I know I have 2 favorite females (purple and hot pink) and 2 favorite males (green and dark blue) but I will be holding on to all 4 pups until they are at least 10 weeks old, before deciding which female and male will be retained (on co-ownership). At first, I really loved hot pink and green simply because of their dark coloring and relative size but now I am more drawn toward purple and dark blue because I think they will look more wolf-like overall, but both are relatively small. So, I will wait and see how they develop in terms of temperament, body structure / conformation, tail carriage, ear size, eye color, etc... it won't be an easy choice and how they look at 10 weeks old might not reflect how they turn out as adults. Personally, I would like to keep the most wolfy-looking puppies but, at the same time, size is also a factor for me because our girls are all quite small and I would like to have slightly larger breeding dogs for future generations.
Wolfsbane wrote:Gorgeous no? Or do these look like White Shepherds because they are solid white without any greying??
Are they pure wolves? their nose coloring looks a bit off...
Taz wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't believe the tamaskan is at the stage where potentially valuable genetic material in terms of diversity, should be lost due to arbitrary things like colour and incorrect masking.
Perhaps when the breed has an effective population size that isn't comparable to a critically endangered species, then you can insist on a stricter standard, especially if the intention is to put the breed into a closed registry breeding system.
I am inclined to agree with you... BUT we have to draw the line somewhere. The goal is to breed dogs that look like wolves and if we allow dogs with poor masking or mismarkings or color faults to breed, then we will end up with Tamaskans that simply don't look like Tamaskans. In the past, it was easy to point out the breeders who were not breeding "true Tamaskans" (such as RPK) because they produced puppies with poor (Malamute-like) masking. Now we have TDR registered breeders producing puppies with poor masking or mismarkings or color faults and selling those puppies to breeding homes. On the one hand, I totally agree that "I don't believe the tamaskan is at the stage where potentially valuable genetic material in terms of diversity, should be lost due to arbitrary things like colour and incorrect masking" but on the other hand, someone (can't remember who the original author is) also made this comment:
"There's one thing that is slightly worrying me though. Of course we are a breed in progress, so we shouldn't be too strict on our selection process of breeding dogs... they are going to have faults. And health + temperament should be number 1 priority! BUT if you have a nice litter of, lets say, 7 pups... and there's one or two pups with really bad markings (way too much white), then WHY not sell those pups with breeding restrictions? From the last 8 or so litters born (worldwide), 5 of them had 1 or 2 pups in them with incorrect masking/markings. It seems to become more and more widespread, not only with us but also see it happening with the Blus breeding. These pups are sold without restrictions, even to potential breeding homes... I'm not sure about the others but I don't want to see our Tamaskan looking like the photo I added to my comment (which is not a Tamaskan btw but a NI). The dog might have a nice temperament and be healthy, but there's dozen of other Tamaskan dogs, probably even from the SAME litter, who also have a nice temperament + good health BUT also have correct masking! We want our dogs to look like wolves right? Pups like these will be born, they will make awesome pets I'm sure, but please please breeders... sell pups with too much white with breeding restrictions. If dogs like these are bred from... the problem will become worse and worse over the generations :P
If a puppy has a small white spot or blaze, sell it as conditional and see how it turns out. it might blend in. If however most of the face is white (no masking at all) then it should not be debatable, pet ONLY!"
I am inclined to agree with this too, which is why 2 puppies from my current litter that have white mismarkings (white collar male and light pink collar female) will be going to pet-only homes, not for future breeding. But what if they turn out the best of the litter in terms of temperament and conformation, coat length, tail carriage, ear size, eye color, etc? There are 10 puppies in the litter so I'm sure that won't be the case and I am comfortable placing those pups in non-breeding homes without worrying about loss of genetic diversity (since other pups from the litter WILL be going to breeding homes)... the point is about drawing a line somewhere and deciding which factors are serious enough to be disqualifying faults, and sometimes that does mean ruling out a dog based on color faults / incorrect masking / mismarkings.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:33 pm

Sylvaen wrote:I am inclined to agree with you... BUT we have to draw the line somewhere. The goal is to breed dogs that look like wolves and if we allow dogs with poor masking or mismarkings or color faults to breed, then we will end up with Tamaskans that simply don't look like Tamaskans. In the past, it was easy to point out the breeders who were not breeding "true Tamaskans" (such as RPK) because they produced puppies with poor (Malamute-like) masking. Now we have TDR registered breeders producing puppies with poor masking or mismarkings or color faults and selling those puppies to breeding homes. On the one hand, I totally agree that "I don't believe the tamaskan is at the stage where potentially valuable genetic material in terms of diversity, should be lost due to arbitrary things like colour and incorrect masking" but on the other hand, someone (can't remember who the original author is) also made this comment:
"There's one thing that is slightly worrying me though. Of course we are a breed in progress, so we shouldn't be too strict on our selection process of breeding dogs... they are going to have faults. And health + temperament should be number 1 priority! BUT if you have a nice litter of, lets say, 7 pups... and there's one or two pups with really bad markings (way too much white), then WHY not sell those pups with breeding restrictions? From the last 8 or so litters born (worldwide), 5 of them had 1 or 2 pups in them with incorrect masking/markings. It seems to become more and more widespread, not only with us but also see it happening with the Blus breeding. These pups are sold without restrictions, even to potential breeding homes... I'm not sure about the others but I don't want to see our Tamaskan looking like the photo I added to my comment (which is not a Tamaskan btw but a NI). The dog might have a nice temperament and be healthy, but there's dozen of other Tamaskan dogs, probably even from the SAME litter, who also have a nice temperament + good health BUT also have correct masking! We want our dogs to look like wolves right? Pups like these will be born, they will make awesome pets I'm sure, but please please breeders... sell pups with too much white with breeding restrictions. If dogs like these are bred from... the problem will become worse and worse over the generations :P
If a puppy has a small white spot or blaze, sell it as conditional and see how it turns out. it might blend in. If however most of the face is white (no masking at all) then it should not be debatable, pet ONLY!"
I am inclined to agree with this too, which is why 2 puppies from my current litter that have white mismarkings (white collar male and light pink collar female) will be going to pet-only homes, not for future breeding. But what if they turn out the best of the litter in terms of temperament and conformation, coat length, tail carriage, ear size, eye color, etc? There are 10 puppies in the litter so I'm sure that won't be the case and I am comfortable placing those pups in non-breeding homes without worrying about loss of genetic diversity (since other pups from the litter WILL be going to breeding homes)... the point is about drawing a line somewhere and deciding which factors are serious enough to be disqualifying faults, and sometimes that does mean ruling out a dog based on color faults / incorrect masking / mismarkings.
Mismarkings like white spotting or the "malamute mask" I agree should not be accepted as they take away from the wolfy look. You say draw the line somewhere, I say there is a fine line between ink spotting, improper masks, and coat colour. As it already is, ink spotting and improper masking should never be accepted, creme however still produces a wolfy look.

Other than the silly argument of "if we accept creme, might as well accept everything else", why should the creme not be accepted?

If a mating occurs where the only dog from said litter has the best temperament, health, and structure, has incorrect markings, then none if that litter should go to breeding homes as that was a bad combination and should not be repeated since the standard is not met.

With Liver, and Blue, do you still get the dark skin pigmentation (black nose, black eye rims, no), or will that make an extra fault? Take these colours with balance, if a colour produces a secondary fault, whether it is linked to health or other markings, then it should not be accepted. What other fault would creme bring to the breed?
Image

User avatar
Wolfsbane
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:26 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:20 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Wolfsbane wrote:Gorgeous no? Or do these look like White Shepherds because they are solid white without any greying??
Are they pure wolves? their nose coloring looks a bit off...
No they are wolfdogs. The point I was trying to make is that these wolfdogs look very wolfy despite their white dog-like coloring. Because of their structure and coat... So the reason why, for example Winter, doesn't look as wolfy isn't so much his coloring.

For me personally, I would like to see solid white/black added to the standard. Because even though the coloring might not be exactly the same as wild wolves, they still mimic the variation of colors in wild wolves very closely. Mismarkings (Piebald) and liver, though I think Logan is gorgeous, I rather not have those as accepted coloring/markings. Simply because those are variations you really do not see in wild wolves ever.

User avatar
chelle784
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:38 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:26 pm

Ok so what i get from the discussions;

People are against it for the following reasons;

- They compare it to liver (debated)
- They don't actually like the colour
- They don' think arctic wolves are that colour anyway
- It can hide bad masking
- They think people will breed just for white (despite how people already have a preference/ aim to produce certain grey colours anyway)


People who are pro adding it to the standard;

- They think it's completely different to liver (debated)
- There are some who like the colour but also some who don't like the colour but still don't see a problem with allowing them to breed
- Arctic wolves are that colour (unlike liver)
- Why limit the breed standard right now when we need to be diversifying the gene pool as it is still early on
- They are dogs and not wolves and it isn't the colour which makes them (and any other colour tam) less or more wolfy


It seems that there are more people wanting it to be added to the standard / allowing breeding dogs than people not but I'm guessing the decision is not up to the majority but up to a small group of people who may or may not listen to the majority (I don't know how these things work).

If they decide no, it could result in a couple of things;

- People will eventually branch off and start their own club with slightly different standards etc
- People will register their litters with the Dutch club (I will not become a breeder but to me the Dutch club sounds more appealing without compromising on the important bits ie. the health checks etc)

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:59 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:For me personally, I would like to see solid white/black added to the standard. Because even though the coloring might not be exactly the same as wild wolves, they still mimic the variation of colors in wild wolves very closely.
I think therein lies part of the problem... we still (as a whole) haven't yet agreed which type of wolf the Tamaskan is supposed to resemble: grey wolf, timber wolf, red wolf, arctic wolf, etc... but we all agree that the Tamaskan should look "wolfy". I suppose one concern could be that the more color varieties we allow, the greater variation we will have within the breed, therefore making it more difficult to point to a dog on the street and say THAT is a Tamaskan (unlike when you see a Doberman or a Golden Retriever, and you just 'know' it is one of those breeds because it so closely matches the set breed standard). Most dog breeds only allow a few acceptable color patterns, while others (such as huskies) allow a great variety... yet it is still easy to spot a husky because of its other features and traits. I guess it boils down to the fact that there really is such a wide discrepancy between the different body and coat types of the separate bloodlines within the Tamaskan breed, which is still a breed-in-progress. Now would be the best time to officially add (a) new color(s) to the breed standard but with new outcrosses and new colors being added, so much so soon, it might be a while until we reach the point where the Tamaskan is distinctly recognizable as a breed (with a relative degree of uniformity)... if ever. Considering the other similar breeds out there (CSV, Saarloos, ANCD, Utonagan, Northern Inuit, etc) I think it is important that the Tamaskan does stand out as something different and unique, separate from the rest. If solid white/black are added to the standard, there is no going back... even once the novelty has worn off.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:15 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:Mismarkings like white spotting or the "malamute mask" I agree should not be accepted as they take away from the wolfy look. You say draw the line somewhere, I say there is a fine line between ink spotting, improper masks, and coat colour. As it already is, ink spotting and improper masking should never be accepted, creme however still produces a wolfy look.

Other than the silly argument of "if we accept creme, might as well accept everything else", why should the creme not be accepted?
Well, as previously mentioned, cream/white can hide bad/poor masking...

You say that improper masking should never be accepted... so, hypothetical situation...

I have decided that this puppy will go to a pet home, based on her poor/incorrect masking.

Image

This pup does not have other white patches, apart from the usual white socks and white tail tip. However, as a breeder, I have to be quite selective and say that due to incorrect masking this pup cannot be used for further breeding... but, IF this pup was cream/white (ee), we would not see the incorrect masking. If I was a breeder that only focused on breeding and producing cream Tams, I could be 'lazy' and just breed cream x cream without ever having to worry about, or even consider, masking faults (and let someone else deal with that problem in future generations, if they take one of my cream pups for breeding and breed it to a normal, non-cream Tam). I suppose it could potentially open the door for sloppy breeding practices, with a lack of due care / consideration for what you are producing and adding to the genepool. The only way I can foresee to counterbalance this would be to have all cream/white (ee) dogs tested for S locus, and any that carry White Spotting (si or sp) are then prohibited from breeding. Would this be a fair solution?
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
chelle784
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:38 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by chelle784 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:39 pm

I wasn't aware that there were any breeders that wanted to breed cream x cream.

I thought it was cream with a non cream especially since there are not actually enough creams for this to happen anyway and they wouldn't actually do it even if there were? So as a breeder wouldn't they choose to breed a cream with a non-cream dog with correct masking anyway? They would still produce some pups with good masking anyway right? Afterall, there are still dogs where they both have correct masking but still produce pups with bad masking.

I still don't think there will be breeders who want to focus on breeding cream tams only because although people like them, they are not as popular as the other colours. Are there Czech wolfdog and NI breeders who focus on cream only? I am guessing no but I cannot confirm this for sure because I don't know enough about the breeding.

Miran
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:58 am
Location: Tiel

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:25 pm

chelle784 wrote:I wasn't aware that there were any breeders that wanted to breed cream x cream.

I thought it was cream with a non cream especially since there are not actually enough creams for this to happen anyway and they wouldn't actually do it even if there were? So as a breeder wouldn't they choose to breed a cream with a non-cream dog with correct masking anyway? They would still produce some pups with good masking anyway right? Afterall, there are still dogs where they both have correct masking but still produce pups with bad masking.

I still don't think there will be breeders who want to focus on breeding cream tams only because although people like them, they are not as popular as the other colours. Are there Czech wolfdog and NI breeders who focus on cream only? I am guessing no but I cannot confirm this for sure because I don't know enough about the breeding.
well for the real breeders that breed wolflike dogs they will not go for breeding cream........or liver for that only the Saarloos does that because CwD's also do not allow liver for the same reason. BUT that doesn't say that in a small genepool and all other is right these dogs can be in a right combination an additing. Just as the pup is that Debby shows above.....It all depends on how someone makes the combination with the test we can do with MyDogDna......I think because Debby started it that she wanted to point the Tamaskan as a breed to be something else then other....well just my personal goal is first health etc then the rest while all other breeds go the other way around ;) :mrgreen: :twisted:

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:56 pm

Sylvaen wrote:The only way I can foresee to counterbalance this would be to have all cream/white (ee) dogs tested for S locus, and any that carry White Spotting (si or sp) are then prohibited from breeding. Would this be a fair solution?
I do not see why this would not be fair, rather I see it as the logical thing to do. Along with testing, breeders should keep in mind of their dogs ancestors so they have an idea what might pop up in their dogs.

If someone is just going to be 'lazy' and breed what they will, like creme x creme and not worry with knowledge of what masking might come from it, they should not be breeding for taking their combinations seriously to breed standard.
Image

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Taz » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:40 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Wolfsbane wrote:For me personally, I would like to see solid white/black added to the standard. Because even though the coloring might not be exactly the same as wild wolves, they still mimic the variation of colors in wild wolves very closely.
I think therein lies part of the problem... we still (as a whole) haven't yet agreed which type of wolf the Tamaskan is supposed to resemble: grey wolf, timber wolf, red wolf, arctic wolf, etc... but we all agree that the Tamaskan should look "wolfy". I suppose one concern could be that the more color varieties we allow, the greater variation we will have within the breed, therefore making it more difficult to point to a dog on the street and say THAT is a Tamaskan (unlike when you see a Doberman or a Golden Retriever, and you just 'know' it is one of those breeds because it so closely matches the set breed standard). Most dog breeds only allow a few acceptable color patterns, while others (such as huskies) allow a great variety... yet it is still easy to spot a husky because of its other features and traits. I guess it boils down to the fact that there really is such a wide discrepancy between the different body and coat types of the separate bloodlines within the Tamaskan breed, which is still a breed-in-progress. Now would be the best time to officially add (a) new color(s) to the breed standard but with new outcrosses and new colors being added, so much so soon, it might be a while until we reach the point where the Tamaskan is distinctly recognizable as a breed (with a relative degree of uniformity)... if ever. Considering the other similar breeds out there (CSV, Saarloos, ANCD, Utonagan, Northern Inuit, etc) I think it is important that the Tamaskan does stand out as something different and unique, separate from the rest. If solid white/black are added to the standard, there is no going back... even once the novelty has worn off.
I like the variation in the breed, I wouldn't want to see it turning into people trying to breed dog clones which is the impression I get with some other breeds. Plus, you can have variety and breed recognition, just look at labrador's, you get short stocky ones, tall racey ones, hound looking ones, and everything in between, but people still look at them and know what breed it is. Same with border Collies, JRT's, Patterdale's and Lurcher's ( even though the latter isn't a breed ).
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:48 pm

I am still on the fence as to whether cream/white should be officially added as an acceptable color variation for the breed.
Personally, I would prefer to wait to see how these current cream/white puppies turn out (as adults) and then decide. :)
chelle784 wrote:I wasn't aware that there were any breeders that wanted to breed cream x cream.

I thought it was cream with a non cream especially since there are not actually enough creams for this to happen anyway and they wouldn't actually do it even if there were?
If the color is accepted, there are no rules saying a breeder could not breed a cream x cream. As it stands now, there are not enough creams for this to happen (without resorting to mating very close relatives) but if the color were added, in due time, there would be more distantly-related creams further down the line so a cream x cream mating could certainly be plausible.
chelle784 wrote:I still don't think there will be breeders who want to focus on breeding cream tams only because although people like them, they are not as popular as the other colours.
I agree with you... but you never know. Some people seem to like it and want to focus on it, just as others seem to be focused on producing Black Greys ("Save the Black Grey Society" lol) so anything is possible.
Miran wrote:well for the real breeders that breed wolflike dogs they will not go for breeding cream........or liver for that only the Saarloos does that because CwD's also do not allow liver for the same reason. BUT that doesn't say that in a small genepool and all other is right these dogs can be in a right combination an additing
Indeed, but the real breeders aren't focusing on color either but, rather, conformation and structure... genetic variety and healthy bloodlines. ;)
HiTenshi16 wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:The only way I can foresee to counterbalance this would be to have all cream/white (ee) dogs tested for S locus, and any that carry White Spotting (si or sp) are then prohibited from breeding. Would this be a fair solution?
I do not see why this would not be fair, rather I see it as the logical thing to do. Along with testing, breeders should keep in mind of their dogs ancestors so they have an idea what might pop up in their dogs.
One potential issue: at present the MyDogDNA Pass does not test for S locus (White Spotting) so, in addition to the MyDogDNA Pass, these dogs would also have to be tested separately for White Spotting via a different company, unless it is added to the Genoscoper panel.
Taz wrote:I like the variation in the breed, I wouldn't want to see it turning into people trying to breed dog clones which is the impression I get with some other breeds. Plus, you can have variety and breed recognition, just look at labrador's, you get short stocky ones, tall racey ones, hound looking ones, and everything in between, but people still look at them and know what breed it is. Same with border Collies, JRT's, Patterdale's and Lurcher's ( even though the latter isn't a breed ).
A bit of variation is one thing... but if we want the breed to ever be taken seriously and recognized as a legit breed, there also has to be some degree of conformity. So that we can point out a dog and say: "that is a Tamaskan". However, this goes beyond color... it is an issue of body structure, size, coat length, tail carriage, etc.

What do you all think about this? Cream/white = recessive red (ee)
The other two E locus genes are E (normal extension) and e (recessive red). Normal extension simply allows a dog to express its other genes on other locii normally. To put it simply, it has no effect on the dog. Recessive red, however, produces a much more visible effect.

A dog which is homozygous for recessive red, so has the genotype ee, will be completely red. Its nose will remain black (or liver, blue or isabella, whatever its eumelanin pigment colour is), and so will its eye rims and lips, but the rest of its coat will be solid red (with or without white markings and ticking). This is because the recessive red gene, in effect, gives the skin cells a disability (but not a harmful one!) - it stops them from being able to produce eumelanin. It is therefore impossible for a recessive red dog to have any black (or liver, blue or isabella) in its coat.

Recessive red, although recessive in its own series, is dominant over almost everything else. Dominant black, sable, tan points, wolf grey, merle, and any other pattern with black in it will be turned to solid red by the recessive red gene. This, in a way, is the danger of recessive red - it's a dog breeder's worst nightmare because it can mask so much. It's impossible to know from looking at a recessive red dog whether it carries sable, tan points, brindle, or any other A or K locus gene, and so impossible to know what it will pass down to its puppies unless you know its family history. A recessive red dog could even be merle while still appearing solid red, and this is a problem that has arisen in Pomeranians. Merle is a recent addition to the Pomeranian breed, and breeders are worried that double merles will be bred by accident because recessive red is so common in the breed. The only way to tell if a recessive red dog is merle is if it has blue eyes (which not all merles do), so it would be easy to accidently breed two merles together if you had a hazy knowledge of genetics and thought merle was always visible because it is dominant. See the double merle page for information on why merle to merle breedings are dangerous.
If all cream/white dogs must be fully DNA tested for coat color genes (including White Spotting) that could be one way to prevent any problems associated with hidden colors.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Booma » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:05 pm

The spotting test doesn't cost that much. I'm getting Balto done through an American company for US$40. I would like to see all tams needing to be tested for spotting.
Image Image

User avatar
Wolfsbane
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:26 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Wolfsbane » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:41 am

If any of the cream pups from Ziva x Avak are used for breeding they must be tested by MyDogDNA, since the NTC made this a requirement for breeding dogs (registered after 1-10-2013). Hopefully by that time spotting is also included, but looking at the parents/grandparents and siblings I doubt these pups would have incorrect markings hidden under the cream.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:51 am

Booma wrote:The spotting test doesn't cost that much. I'm getting Balto done through an American company for US$40. I would like to see all tams needing to be tested for spotting.
Yes, we will be testing all of our dogs too. I already have the swabs from DDC Veterinary but they charge $58 per test. Which company are you using?
Wolfsbane wrote:If any of the cream pups from Ziva x Avak are used for breeding they must be tested by MyDogDNA, since the NTC made this a requirement for breeding dogs (registered after 1-10-2013). Hopefully by that time spotting is also included
Yep, HTS made the same rule for all breeding dogs as well as all offspring produced. I also hope that S locus will be included soon but in the meantime we will test for White Spotting with a different company instead.
Wolfsbane wrote:looking at the parents/grandparents and siblings I doubt these pups would have incorrect markings hidden under the cream.
I am not so sure about that... if you look at Avak and Jaegar's siblings (Nanuq and Zoolo):

Image

Image

This white spotting (along with the separate cream gene) almost certainly comes from Summer's bloodline, rather than the Saarloos side via Bobbi. Either way, it is possible that Avak and Jaegar are also carriers of White Spotting and IF they are carriers then it is also possible that some of their offspring are also carriers too... unfortunately, if they are cream we cannot see incorrect masking so we can only test them for White Spotting and see if they have the genes, or not.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

Miran
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:58 am
Location: Tiel

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Miran » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:40 am

In my eyes it is very simple. The pups/dogs we are talking about are all still pups. Why not register them as conditional ( as all of these 2 litters must be because they are from a outcross mating ) and then evaluate them after a year , best with 18 months as it should be done!!????

Why already rule them out if they can grow out structure, temperament and health wise stunning tamaskans????
And if the spotting is the great deal in that then why not mandatory the test for spotting for these dogs if they add up in the other 3 categories??
Rule them out just right now is in my eyes not good for the whole genepool!

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Miran wrote:In my eyes it is very simple. The pups/dogs we are talking about are all still pups. Why not register them as conditional ( as all of these 2 litters must be because they are from a outcross mating ) and then evaluate them after a year , best with 18 months as it should be done!!????
Exactly. That is how I voted. :)
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Booma » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:47 pm

Debby I'll have to get back to you on the company name - when going to the website to find the link I couldn't see spotting anymore, so have emailed them asking about it, since I was just about to send off Baltos cheek swab.
They also have a company in England, though with the money conversation rate the US company was cheaper for me to use (and I think had a faster turn around time too).
Image Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:43 pm

Booma wrote:Debby I'll have to get back to you on the company name - when going to the website to find the link I couldn't see spotting anymore, so have emailed them asking about it, since I was just about to send off Baltos cheek swab.
They also have a company in England, though with the money conversation rate the US company was cheaper for me to use (and I think had a faster turn around time too).
OK thanks, please let me know... $18 difference in price does add up when testing multiple dogs :)
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
firleymj
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:38 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by firleymj » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:21 pm

OK, as a Tamaskan owner (but not yet a breeder - fingers crossed someday)

I'm not in principle opposed to white or black, but I am concerned as was noted above that we have a lot of work to do just to keep the breed standard as we know it going for enough more dogs to create a wide and healthy gene pool.

I'm also enough of a math geek to realize that DNA testing may not always provide conclusive answers (it's statistically true, not absolutely true, no matter the perception). There may yet be undiscovered linkages between certain color sequences and other problems (this has shown up in other breeds).

So I feel having thought about it, that I'd like to see the breed standard stay as is for a bit - since the stud books are still open, a future committee can revisit it when we reach a critical registered population.

I would be saddened enormously if all the national clubs decided on their own definitions. I know (secondhand) the enormous work it was to get ARBA/KCUSA recognition, and would be truly disappointed if we failed to build on that as a starting point. Having said that, if an otherwise outstanding candidate was available, I believe it should be considered, but the owner/petitioner should not consider acceptance automatic - and that the oversight committee do its best based on circumstances and trends within the breeder community.

My haypenny, (after taxes)

Mark
My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown
The greatest love is a mother's; then a dog's; then a sweetheart's. ~Polish Proverb

The human of Ch.(ARBA) and Ch.(KCUSA) Hawthorne James Watson (call name Kona)

Image
http://www.anthracitetamaskan.com

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Booma » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:10 am

Debby, I plan to use this company http://www.animalgenetics.com/Canine/Ca ... SLocus.asp the test is $40 US Each.
Image Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5206
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:58 pm

Booma wrote:Debby, I plan to use this company http://www.animalgenetics.com/Canine/Ca ... SLocus.asp the test is $40 US Each.
Thanks! :)
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by cindy23323 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Katlin wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:Yes, "white" arctic wolves do exist in the wild but this is not the same as the cream color that is currently popping up in Tamaskan bloodlines, which is a DOG trait; the same as Liver and Blue and Piebald, which also do not exist in true wild wolf populations. Arctic wolves are born dark grey and their final 'white' coloring (as adults) is not solid white but, rather, off-white mixed with cream and silver and darker black guard-hairs / overlay.
Humm...because I look back at the pictures from a Wolfdog Sanctuary that's close to my place and their high content white hybrid started out an orangey cream:
528140_323640094395273_434779557_n.jpg
And now looks like this:
1476340_563419637083983_1918303166_n.jpg
From the searches and pictures I've pulled up it looks like a lot of them start out an orangey white, some are pure white, and some are lighter brown-grey.
Actually this particular puppy did not start out orangey cream, that particular picture is of the puppy at almost 3 months old. Here is the same puppy of Georgina's at 32 days old. Notice how Nova is darker. And when he was born he was even darker then that

Image

Image

User avatar
cindy23323
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: US, Virginia
Contact:

Re: wolf grey and silver grey

Post by cindy23323 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:02 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:Gorgeous no? Or do these look like White Shepherds because they are solid white without any greying??
wolf1.jpg
wolf2.jpg
Wolf husky pups is one of the worst misrepresenting people out there unfortunately

Post Reply