Height + Pondering's.

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Whispyr
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Height + Pondering's.

Post by Whispyr » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:06 am

I have been doing research into the breed, (and a couple other breed's) as I have a desire to breed in the future. This week has been looking at younguns pics and came across this little guy

http://www.pbase.com/alaskankleekai/image/148589509

The Alaskan Klee Kai has a hard max limit of 17" anything taller disqualifies, but I do love his markings. (Which if I read correct would potentially disqualify him from breeding). As well as his wolfier "look" then the husky look. Yes he does have some other "faults" by Tamaskan standard, if I am not mistaken tail curving over the back is discouraged? It does not appear to be in the standard list.

The Tamaskan low limit is 24" and while I think outside of the box I was wondering if either breed standard would be opening to developing a middle ground. Potentially utilizing both breeds.

My first thought had been choosing AKK's with the "wolfier" qualities, then got wondering if they would allow that. I have not had a chat with a breeder about this yet.

My second thought was introducing the Standard, or AKK's with eliminating too tall requirement, to the Tamaskan line. This would most likely yield dogs shorter shorter then the breed standard. So am posting here to get the Tamaskan idea side of things, if the height requirement is set in stone, or a slightly smaller (medium size) line would possibly be allowed?

As well to be clear, It is not about miniature or toy or pocket dogs. But in the area of 16" to 24" Where Tamaskan could potentially be open to living in smaller environments (with plenty of exercise outdoors.).

Anyways thoughts in general are welcome! Not just in regards to height, but this whole crazy idea.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:44 am

I wouldn't be open to this at all, I wouldn't sell to anyone that had this goal in mind. The Tamaskan Dog has enough issues with puppymills and people breeding them to other breeds of dog. Also I haven't met a full grown tamaskan under 25 inches and I think most I have met are 27-30 inches and 70-100 pounds. That is a huge size difference... Against this idea for many many other reasons but I will leave it at that.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Whispyr » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:47 am

AZDehlin wrote:I wouldn't be open to this at all, I wouldn't sell to anyone that had this goal in mind. The Tamaskan Dog has enough issues with puppymills and people breeding them to other breeds of dog. Also I haven't met a full grown tamaskan under 25 inches and I think most I have met are 27-30 inches and 70-100 pounds. That is a huge size difference... Against this idea for many many other reasons but I will leave it at that.
I take offense at being accused of becoming a puppy mill. I was under the impression that outcrosses are possible, should they improve the breed. I was curious about these two, and am interested in hearing all reason's for or against. Which I did have a hunch there would be more against.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Katlin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:52 am

Do a bit more research on the breed first please. For example:

Health issues: Heart issues, joint issues, kidney issues, longevity issues.

Attitude: Shy, stubborn, extreme prey drive

And that's just a re-cap. Sorry but I think it would be insane to make a "mini tamaskan" :roll:

EDIT: not only that but, as Katelyn said, the size difference is immense, almost as bad as the "shamaskan inu".
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:57 am

Whispyr wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:I wouldn't be open to this at all, I wouldn't sell to anyone that had this goal in mind. The Tamaskan Dog has enough issues with puppymills and people breeding them to other breeds of dog. Also I haven't met a full grown tamaskan under 25 inches and I think most I have met are 27-30 inches and 70-100 pounds. That is a huge size difference... Against this idea for many many other reasons but I will leave it at that.
I take offense at being accused of becoming a puppy mill. I was under the impression that outcrosses are possible, should they improve the breed. I was curious about these two, and am interested in hearing all reason's for or against. Which I did have a hunch there would be more against.
I am not calling you a puppymill, but puppymills have got hold of Tamaskan and are hurting our breed PR (aka RPK, Blustag,Blufawn). We have also had people go breed their tamaskan too GSD's , Labs, Shiba Inus... Our breed is very very young and I think we need to stick to are original goal of wolfy looking dogs (wolves are 30-33 inches) and improve on the health, temperment, workability, trainabilty. Not going and making toy dogs with some of the issues tamaskan have along with many of the issues AKK have sounds like a terror in the making.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Rahne » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Whispyr wrote:The Alaskan Klee Kai has a hard max limit of 17" anything taller disqualifies, but I do love his markings. (Which if I read correct would potentially disqualify him from breeding). As well as his wolfier "look" then the husky look. Yes he does have some other "faults" by Tamaskan standard, if I am not mistaken tail curving over the back is discouraged? It does not appear to be in the standard list.
Alaskan Klee Kai are nothing more then miniature Huskies. If you think they look 'wolfier' then you haven't done proper research into the Siberian Husky (working lines).
Whispyr wrote:The Tamaskan low limit is 24" and while I think outside of the box I was wondering if either breed standard would be opening to developing a middle ground. Potentially utilizing both breeds.
Whispyr wrote:My second thought was introducing the Standard, or AKK's with eliminating too tall requirement, to the Tamaskan line. This would most likely yield dogs shorter shorter then the breed standard. So am posting here to get the Tamaskan idea side of things, if the height requirement is set in stone, or a slightly smaller (medium size) line would possibly be allowed?
Whispyr wrote:As well to be clear, It is not about miniature or toy or pocket dogs. But in the area of 16" to 24" Where Tamaskan could potentially be open to living in smaller environments (with plenty of exercise outdoors.).
No. The Tamaskan is supposed to look like a wolf, and they are not small animals. My female Tamaskan is around 27.6" and my male around 28.7". They are big dogs but I wouldn't want them much smaller, certainly NOT toy size. My dogs live in small environment (3 bedroom apartment) and they do just fine. They sleep most of the time, real couch potatoes :mrgreen:
As long as they get enough exercise they are very easy and calm dogs inside the house and don't need much space.

So really, there's no good reason to breed smaller Tamaskan in my opinion. If people want a small dog then they need to look at a different breed. There are several smaller Northern Breeds that looks somewhat 'wolfy': Shikoku, Västgötaspets, Jämthund, West Siberian Laika (and the other Laika types) etc.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Nino » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:43 am

AKK vs. Tamaskan Dog (Tam):

Stop:
AKK: ...with a moderate stop.
Tam: Slight/Moderate.

Masking:
AKK: .. the facial mask which must be clearly visible due to contrasting colors.
Tam: ..three types of mask that are acceptable, in every variation the mask must reach all the way to the nose.

Head:
AKK: Faults: Narrow head; insufficient stop; stop too steep.
Tam: muzzle is preffered long and with a fairly narrow head (the longer muzzle makes the head shape seem more narrow)*

Nose:
AKK: ..solid black nose is preferred, although the pink-streaked "snow nose" is acceptable. A liver-colored nose is acceptable in dogs whose coat colors are shades of red with white.
Tam: Black nose. Snow nose, dudley and others are a fault*

Tail:
AKK: The tail should be well-furred and set on just below the level of the top line. The preferred tail carriage is a loose curl which falls to the center of the back or drapes to either side of the body. The tail may hang down when the dog is relaxed but forms a curl when the dog is alert or moving. A heavily plumed tail is acceptable in dogs with longer coats. Dark hairs at the tip of the tail are strongly preferred. Faults: Tail stands away from the back or sides of the body when curled. Disqualifications: Tail too short to touch the back
Tam: The tail should reach to the hock joint but not beyond. At rest the tail is carried downward, but when the dog is excited or in motion, it is carried higher. The tail, should not be carried curled over the back. Coarse thick hair but not feathered.

Color:
AKK: All coat colors acceptable provided that the facial mask is distinct and clearly visible, all markings are symmetrical, and there is a contrasting lighter color on the dog's throat, chest, breeches, feet, legs and underside.
Tam: Wolf Grey, Red Grey, Black Grey. Any other color should be seen as a fault. It is prefferred there is as little as possible white markings on the Tamaskan (eg. white feet and white that a dog is born with being apparent - cream should not be seen as actual white). Blazes and headspots should be seen as undesirable and a minor fault but should not be disqualifying unless they are so big that they ruins the expression of the facial mask. Pie-bald is a disqualifying fault.*

Eyes:
AKK: The eyes are of medium size and may be any color or combination of colors. Almond-shaped eyes are the most desirable, followed in order of preference by oval and round.
Tam: Eyes are Yellow through amber & brown. Almond shaped and of medium size. Blue eyes are a disqualifying fault. Close fitting lids.

Forequarters:
AKK: Viewed from the front, the forelegs are straight, parallel, and spaced moderately apart, with moderate to fine bone in proportion to the size of the dog.
Tam: The front legs are straight, close together and the feet should turn slightly outwards.

AKK: Front dewclaws may be removed.
Tam: Front dewclaws are used a lot and should not be removed!
Really, the list could go on and on and on.. there are simply too many disadvantages to breeding together with the AKK..
>> Nino <<
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:06 pm

Well, for me this is far too much to read on my mobile :oops:

But what did stand out was this bit.
Whispyr wrote: But in the area of 16" to 24" Where Tamaskan could potentially be open to living in smaller environments (with plenty of exercise outdoors.).
There are examples of Tamaskans living in small environments, apartments etc with plenty of exercise outdoors... And if people don't want a big dog there are other breeds open to them in the toy category (which you already mentioned above).

I feel people are drawn to the breed not only for the wolfy look but also the love of large breeds (i am a large breed with pointy ears lover and if it was minuterized before i got to know the breed, i may well have carried on looking).
And i think a little knee high cutesy dog will take away from the whole wolfy look... A permanent puppy....

And then there are the good points about health above...
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Mario312 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:46 pm

I just wanted to touch on the point in this thread about apartment living. I live in a pretty small apartment in the city.. And Roma is a great apartment dog. She gets a lot of exercise, but I wouldn't even say she "needs" it in order to be mellow. She's lazy when she's in the house, and active outdoors. I just wanted to state that I disagree with the general thought of "smaller dogs are better in apartments".. I feel like I'm a good example of a large breed that works great in a city/apartment living situation.

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Whispyr » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:38 pm

Thank you guys for the input on this, and especially the comprehensive breakdown. As well as testament's to apartment living, it has been very informative.

by the AKK looking "wolfier" comment I meant within as a commentary of that example within the AKK breed. Not vs Tamaskan and actual wolves. Could have been more clear on that.

Thx tho!

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Tiantai » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:05 am

In my personal opinion, the Alaskan Klee Kai is quite an insult to me as they're basically a miniature version of the husky but are the result from outcrossing with the Schipperke, losing their ability to pull heavy sleds and perform many other Siberian Husky jobs (such as hunting) as a result. However, temperament-wise, they are still very much like the Siberian Huskies.

In terms of their height, being a small breed, obviously they're not suitable for outcrossing with the Tamaskan.
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Nino » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:04 am

I would just like to make it clear to everyone that any idea should be welcome in the forum to be aired so that it can be disgussed.
This being a good way to help each other working towards a greater breed.
There is nothing wrong with the suggestion or train of thoughts on this topic, even though it hopefully will not be something considered further because of the disadvantages of it. But this does not mean that, that one great idea could be posted by someone in here and therefore I would like to remind everyone not to both take posts like this personal, as an attack on the breed or in any way degrade the topic starter (TS).

Thank you TS for sharig your thoughts, please do feel welcome to do so again :)
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Wolfheart2112 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:10 am

Nino wrote:I would just like to make it clear to everyone that any idea should be welcome in the forum to be aired so that it can be disgussed.
This being a good way to help each other working towards a greater breed.
There is nothing wrong with the suggestion or train of thoughts on this topic, even though it hopefully will not be something considered further because of the disadvantages of it. But this does not mean that, that one great idea could be posted by someone in here and therefore I would like to remind everyone not to both take posts like this personal, as an attack on the breed or in any way degrade the topic starter (TS).

Thank you TS for sharig your thoughts, please do feel welcome to do so again :)
+1 on that, thank you Nino for reminding us :)

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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:30 pm

Personally I would not want to diverge from our type we are still trying to develop. Yes, we want outcrosses and additional foundation stock, but the purpose is to make more of the same type, not to make additional sizes, colors or flavors of Tamaskan. We still have a lot of work to do on the Tam. I very much appreciate your ideas, we need more people who want to help. But I have seen Klee in person and I would have to say they are far too small to consider. My two female Tams are over 70 pounds. And our male is 88 pounds. Two of them have yet to fill out so these are immature weights. This is also deceptive because of how tall the dogs are.
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by firleymj » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:32 pm

Warning: I'm not a breeder, I'm waiting for my first Tamaskan, so please take with a modicum of salt.
I too, don't want to derogate any person for putting a new idea before us.
However, I find myself agreeing with Tracy for a number of reasons discussed.

In biological terms, the number of Tamaskans would qualify us as a severely endangered species, were Tamaskans all the dogs in the world. Under the circumstances, selective breeding to maintain the quality and genetic health of the breed ought to take priority (in my opinion).

In some distant happy future, when our numbers are higher, perhaps we could approach some of these questions. There's an excellent thread on this forum about "What is the purpose of the Tamaskan dog?" which goes way beyond mixing bloodlines to a very insightful discussion about the purpose of all our efforts. (I highly recommend it) - I think it puts the discussion here in a broader context, and leads me (at least) to the conclusion that the most positive answer I can give to the topic is "I thank the author, but I believe we're not going to be ready to approach the question in the context of the Tamaskan as a 'breed' for quite some time."
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Re: Height + Pondering's.

Post by JenTehLuv » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:38 pm

I agree that the tamaskans as a whole are a very new breed and we need to establish where we want the breed to go and getting it registered as a recognized breed of dog before thinking of changing what we've worked on so early. Besides I believe the swedish vallhund already looks like a "mini tamaskan" in ways because it looks like a tamaskan mixed with a corgi lol, plus the swedish vallhund is already an established breed of dog.

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