Light masking

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
GreyJoy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:42 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:12 pm

This may be the wrong thread to post in but I am getting the lighter colored male from the tarheel litter and plan to breed in the future. I think his genetics are good but he is not going to be the epitome of "tamaskan standard" . My question being, if he is bred with a dark, nicely masked female, do you foresee any problems with a breeding like this?

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: White wolflike breed comparison

Post by AZDehlin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:44 pm

GreyJoy wrote:This may be the wrong thread to post in but I am getting the lighter colored male from the tarheel litter and plan to breed in the future. I think his genetics are good but he is not going to be the epitome of "tamaskan standard" . My question being, if he is bred with a dark, nicely masked female, do you foresee any problems with a breeding like this?

Butch Cassidy?

Rahne

Re: White wolflike breed comparison

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:51 am

GreyJoy wrote:This may be the wrong thread to post in but I am getting the lighter colored male from the tarheel litter and plan to breed in the future. I think his genetics are good but he is not going to be the epitome of "tamaskan standard" . My question being, if he is bred with a dark, nicely masked female, do you foresee any problems with a breeding like this?
What do you mean with 'I think his genetics are good'? If you are looking to breed then why not choose a male who fits the breed standard?

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: White wolflike breed comparison

Post by Katlin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:06 am

Rahne wrote:
GreyJoy wrote:This may be the wrong thread to post in but I am getting the lighter colored male from the tarheel litter and plan to breed in the future. I think his genetics are good but he is not going to be the epitome of "tamaskan standard" . My question being, if he is bred with a dark, nicely masked female, do you foresee any problems with a breeding like this?
What do you mean with 'I think his genetics are good'? If you are looking to breed then why not choose a male who fits the breed standard?
Going to have to agree with this ^
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:24 am

Ideally there is as few as possible white in the face. The masking should reach down to the nose, and have you ever seen wolves with white spots on foreheads?

There are a lot of Tamaskan pups with (small) white spots on the forehead and masking not reaching down to the nose. The older they get the better it becomes because you will see these white markings blend in. However they are passed on with breeding and it seems to be getting worse with every following generation. To show some examples of what I'm talking about:

Heidi as a pup:
Heidi_pup.jpg
Heidi as adult:
heidi_adult.jpg
Pups that Heidi produced (to different males with proper masking):
heidi_offspring1.jpg
heidi_offspring2.jpg
heidi_offspring3.jpg

Dingo as adult (couldn't find puppy picture of him):
dingo_adult.jpg
Pups that Dingo produced (to different females with proper masking):
dingo_offspring1.jpg
dingo_offspring2.jpg
dingo_offspring3.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

weylyn

Re: Light masking

Post by weylyn » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:48 am

if indeed you are talking about butch let me be honest in my opinion. For some reason I love him the most from the litter....but for breeding I like him the less......
Even with a dark female you have big change you will have many pups that will be too light for the standard......

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Booma » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:10 pm

Rahne who is that last pic of the Heidi pup?
Image Image

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:16 pm

Kylievr wrote:Rahne who is that last pic of the Heidi pup?
A Heidi x Jackal pup, from the same litter as Falk/Elska. There were 2 pups in that litter with bad masking.

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:19 pm

GreyJoy, you are talking about Butch Cassidy I presume?
Butch.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:33 pm

Nice pup, but not breeding quality (IMHO) - it is possible that the stripe on the nose will darken, but with the thick white eyebrows (widow's peak) the pup has quite a 'Malamute-like' appearance. Personally, I think this pup should have conditional registration and IF the masking improves then he could be given full registration and allowed to be used for breeding (pending health test results). It all depends how the pup will turn out as an adult. However, ultimately, only the very *best* pups of each litter can be considered potential future breeding quality... factors to take into consideration include: masking, tail carriage, ear size, coat length, body construction, etc. The idea is to IMPROVE the breed, through careful selective breeding, over successive generations. Each breeding puppy should be a step up from the generation before, otherwise it is not doing the breed any good at all (no forward progression) and will result in yet more litters with poor masking. The objective is quality, not quantity... so it is important to seek the best quality when you're looking at potential future breeding dogs.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Vajente
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:02 am
Location: Buinerveen, The Netherlands

Re: Light masking

Post by Vajente » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:43 pm

I was thinking the same about the conditional/limited registration. He is definitly not breeding quality, he reminds me of some of the RPK dogs

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:52 pm

If he were my breeding I would sell him on Limited Registration. His mask might blend in when he gets older but his genetics won't change.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Light masking

Post by Tiantai » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:17 pm

To be honest I like the light-colour masking
Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:26 pm

Tiantai wrote:To be honest I like the light-colour masking
And some people love dogs with blue eyes, long coats, and curly tails. Personal preference is fine if you're just looking for a pet, but if you want a breeding dog then you should be sure it fits the Breed Standard as closely as possible...
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Light masking

Post by Tiantai » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:36 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Tiantai wrote:To be honest I like the light-colour masking
And some people love dogs with blue eyes, long coats, and curly tails. Personal preference is fine if you're just looking for a pet, but if you want a breeding dog then you should be sure it fits the Breed Standard as closely as possible...
I was NOT talking about breeding, Debby. Obviously I wouldn't breed a dog whose mask, eyes, coat, tail, or feet happens to fall outside of the breed standard!
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:38 pm

I wouldn't pick a pup like that for breeding... My boys mask isn't as dark as i would like around his eyes but it was darker than that when he was a pup (I wish it was more consistent with his nose). He does have it round his eyes but the camera doesn't pick it up too well.

It was much darker when he was younger:

8 Weeks (or 9 weeks).



5 month:



1 yr 6 month (ish)



(close up of 1 yr 6 month (ish))

If my boys was that dark when 8 weeks and has lightened so much, is that one going to be non existent? Or is it possible it will darken not go lighter?

(I have been pondering this and now seem's the right time to ask :oops: :D )
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:53 am

Rahne wrote:Ideally there is as few as possible white in the face. The masking should reach down to the nose, and have you ever seen wolves with white spots on foreheads?

There are a lot of Tamaskan pups with (small) white spots on the forehead and masking not reaching down to the nose. The older they get the better it becomes because you will see these white markings blend in. However they are passed on with breeding and it seems to be getting worse with every following generation. To show some examples of what I'm talking about:

Heidi as a pup:
Heidi_pup.jpg
Heidi as adult:
heidi_adult.jpg
Pups that Heidi produced (to different males with proper masking):
heidi_offspring1.jpg
heidi_offspring2.jpg
heidi_offspring3.jpg

Dingo as adult (couldn't find puppy picture of him):
dingo_adult.jpg
Pups that Dingo produced (to different females with proper masking):
dingo_offspring1.jpg
dingo_offspring2.jpg
dingo_offspring3.jpg

I thought blazes and stars are faults

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:38 pm

balto13 wrote:I thought blazes and stars are faults
Yes they are. But we don't have a committee that decides whether or not a dog is breeding quality, this is up to the breeder. So if a breeder wants to breed with a dog that has a blaze then they can... as long as both parents are TDR registered Tamaskan.

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:41 pm

Rahne wrote:
balto13 wrote:I thought blazes and stars are faults
Yes they are. But we don't have a committee that decides whether or not a dog is breeding quality, this is up to the breeder. So if a breeder wants to breed with a dog that has a blaze then they can... as long as both parents are TDR registered Tamaskan.
oh, okay I understand what you're saying. Do breeders generally not sell non standard fitting pups to breeding homes, unless the fault isn't too "bad"?

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Light masking

Post by Tiantai » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:27 pm

TerriHolt wrote:I wouldn't pick a pup like that for breeding... My boys mask isn't as dark as i would like around his eyes but it was darker than that when he was a pup (I wish it was more consistent with his nose). He does have it round his eyes but the camera doesn't pick it up too well.

It was much darker when he was younger:

8 Weeks (or 9 weeks).



5 month:



1 yr 6 month (ish)



(close up of 1 yr 6 month (ish))

If my boys was that dark when 8 weeks and has lightened so much, is that one going to be non existent? Or is it possible it will darken not go lighter?

(I have been pondering this and now seem's the right time to ask :oops: :D )
Well it just shows that the breed still has a longgggggggg way to go before we can gauranteed for all of the Tamaskans to have the desired lupine wolfish look
Image

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:31 pm

Rahne wrote:
balto13 wrote:I thought blazes and stars are faults
Yes they are. But we don't have a committee that decides whether or not a dog is breeding quality, this is up to the breeder. So if a breeder wants to breed with a dog that has a blaze then they can... as long as both parents are TDR registered Tamaskan.

I think some say from committee or countries club should be in place or we are eventually going to end up with husky/malamute masks popping up way more frequently. Also I would like to see structure testing puppies before allotment to new homes to determine which are breeding quality and which are not. This is a very young breed and without some serious guidance... we are going to loose the consistency we have.

GreyJoy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:42 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Thu May 02, 2013 4:02 pm

With his genetics, I was trying to state that I think his grandmother is gorgeous, she is also very light. I did not know if the light coloring was even something frowned upon. Color is not the only attribute that genetics produce, but it is one many people make breeding decisions about. I understand what everyone is saying with it being furthered into the breed and that was my original question. If this is truly a "bad breeding color" Obviously he has genetics from his mother and father and granfather who all are not exactly "light" dogs. I agree with getting a dog to breed to the standard. But why are these such major faults?

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Booma » Thu May 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Its not his colour, but his masking. If we don't stick to breeding dogs that fit the standard, then the standard will go out the window.
Image Image

GreyJoy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:42 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Thu May 02, 2013 4:43 pm

I am on my phone at the moment and cannot post the picture of summer when you search for tam pics, but if someone could post it, maybe see where I am comiing from as far as the light color. Or is summer a dog that would try to be bred away from?

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Thu May 02, 2013 4:45 pm

Like Kylie says, his light color isn't the problem. His grandmother Tundra was very light in color (gorgeous female) but she did have correct masking, and Butch Cassidy doesn't. Now his masking might become better when he ages, but that doesn't mean he won't pass it on to (some of) his offspring. The 'problem' will only become larger if we keep breeding from dogs with faulty masks. Darker dogs can also have faulty masks. There needs to be a clear mask reaching down to the nose:
Mika1.jpg
Of course a dog is more then just as mask, and health and temperament are even more important. So I wouldn't say NO if the owner of such dog would persist on breeding from it if everything else is good.... but as you already know you want a breeding dog later on then WHY choose such a pup that doesn't fit the standard? If all breeders disregard the breed standard as not important, then we better just throw it out of the window right now! The Tamaskan is supposed to look like a wolf, and having faulty mask/too much white in the face is making them look like some Husky mutt (sorry don't have anything against mutts but we do want a wolf-lookalike don't we??). The other boy from that litter, Sundance Kid, he looks very promising. I know he is going to a breeders home, so it's not like the genes from this litter will not be used to forward the breed.

Anyways you asked if we would expect problems if he is bred from, and I personally do see the faulty masking as a problem... so I, as a breeder, would never choose him as a future breeding male. And I, as a breeder, wouldn't sell him to someone who is looking for a breeding male.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Thu May 02, 2013 4:51 pm

Summer doesn't have the best masking either, and two of her pups ended up with white blazes around the muzzle.

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Light masking

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 02, 2013 5:50 pm

Rahne wrote:Like Kylie says, his light color isn't the problem. His grandmother Tundra was very light in color (gorgeous female) but she did have correct masking, and Butch Cassidy doesn't. Now his masking might become better when he ages, but that doesn't mean he won't pass it on to (some of) his offspring. The 'problem' will only become larger if we keep breeding from dogs with faulty masks. Darker dogs can also have faulty masks. There needs to be a clear mask reaching down to the nose:
Mika1.jpg
Of course a dog is more then just as mask, and health and temperament are even more important. So I wouldn't say NO if the owner of such dog would persist on breeding from it if everything else is good.... but as you already know you want a breeding dog later on then WHY choose such a pup that doesn't fit the standard? If all breeders disregard the breed standard as not important, then we better just throw it out of the window right now! The Tamaskan is supposed to look like a wolf, and having faulty mask/too much white in the face is making them look like some Husky mutt (sorry don't have anything against mutts but we do want a wolf-lookalike don't we??). The other boy from that litter, Sundance Kid, he looks very promising. I know he is going to a breeders home, so it's not like the genes from this litter will not be used to forward the breed.

Anyways you asked if we would expect problems if he is bred from, and I personally do see the faulty masking as a problem... so I, as a breeder, would never choose him as a future breeding male. And I, as a breeder, wouldn't sell him to someone who is looking for a breeding male.
@Rahne

I'm a bit confused. I thought the parents of this litter is Sequoia x Jaeger, so if it's the same Tundra I'm thinking about (J&J Moonstruck Tundra @ Tarheel), then she isn't in this litter's pedigree... I'm thinking the incorrect masking may come from a combination of Nanna (Sequoia's dam) and Summer (Jaeger's dam); but mostly influenced by Nanna.

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Thu May 02, 2013 5:56 pm

arianwenarie wrote:@Rahne

I'm a bit confused. I thought the parents of this litter is Sequoia x Jaeger, so if it's the same Tundra I'm thinking about (J&J Moonstruck Tundra @ Tarheel), then she isn't in this litter's pedigree... I'm thinking the incorrect masking may come from a combination of Nanna (Sequoia's dam) and Summer (Jaeger's dam); but mostly influenced by Nanna.
Whoops, you are right :oops:
Grandmother is Summer of course, not Tundra.

GreyJoy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:42 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Thu May 02, 2013 6:25 pm

Rahne wrote:If he were my breeding I would sell him on Limited Registration. His mask might blend in when he gets older but his genetics won't change.
Would the same apply for pups from Ziva? I think she is gorgeous also but exactly standard.is there a photo of a young ziva?

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Thu May 02, 2013 6:35 pm

GreyJoy wrote:
Rahne wrote:If he were my breeding I would sell him on Limited Registration. His mask might blend in when he gets older but his genetics won't change.
Would the same apply for pups from Ziva? I think she is gorgeous also but exactly standard.is there a photo of a young ziva?
Ziva is an outcross, all her pups will be sold on either limited or conditional registration. So they are not allowed to be bred from until after a full evaluation (after their first year). She might throw faulty masks, in that case I WILL advise the breeder not to sell those pups to the people wanting to breed ;)

BUT again, this is not about the light coat coloring but about the masking. Ziva has a correct masking, full and reaching down to the nose.
Ziva at 6 weeks old:
Ziva_pup.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

GreyJoy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:42 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Thu May 02, 2013 6:38 pm

I also want to take a moment to thank everyone for your opinions. As a future responsible breeder, I love hearing all feedback and @ Katelyn, I agree about sound puppies being so very important as well as all other health/temperment/work ability/ looks. Thank you all though :) I would not be here if I did not believe in this breed. And believe enough to wait if I must. I was just very curious to to the standard of very light colored dogs.

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by HiTenshi16 » Fri May 03, 2013 12:41 am

As quite a few have said, there is nothing wrong with him being light coloured, but it is his mask/face that worries everyone. I hope this quick reference gives you an idea of what everyone means.
mask standards.png
Again, nothing wrong with coat colour being light. Tarheel Thor, for example, https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 9960_n.jpg is a light coloured male and is to breed standard.

Hope this helps you understand :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Fri May 03, 2013 2:23 am

I love that picture you made! Great job! :D

I am curious, if this pup passes all the tests, and has a really gorgeous coat would it be alright to breed with a female who has a good mask? I know there are some tams with curly tails being bred to dogs with non curly tails, and I have heard that most the time curly tails goes away with one generation, but hasn't there been dogs who got curly tails from their grandparents, or great grandparents? I bring that up because I wonder (and don't understand) which faults are okay to breed with and which ones aren't, as long as a tam is healthy, good temperament, and passes tests.

User avatar
darazan
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:54 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by darazan » Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 am

I would think that you should do your best to not breed faulty tams at all, but is your question if there are faults that are more faulty than others since no dog is perfect? This is of course assuming that any dogs considered for breeding are healthy. :)
-Crystal

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Fri May 03, 2013 3:02 am

yes, basically LOL. And I don't mean just this pup, but other pups too (and I do agree that if a person decided to be a breeder they should chose a pup closest to the standard) which faults are "acceptable" as long as the dog is healthy? tails, ears, masks? which ones are less acceptable?

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Light masking

Post by arianwenarie » Fri May 03, 2013 3:27 am

balto13 wrote:yes, basically LOL. And I don't mean just this pup, but other pups too (and I do agree that if a person decided to be a breeder they should chose a pup closest to the standard) which faults are "acceptable" as long as the dog is healthy? tails, ears, masks? which ones are less acceptable?
I would assume that it'd depend on the severity of the fault and who the dog/bitch is paired with. Take a look at the dog/bitch's siblings and if any sibling (with minor faults or 'near perfect' breed standard-wise) have produced litters, take a look at their offspring taking into consideration who their sibling was paired with - how did those pups turn out at certain ages? If there are any major faults (breed standard-wise), then which parent do you think passed on that trait? Is the dog/bitch you're planning on breeding with have that same fault? If so, how do you think it would affect his/her offspring even though the dog/bitch they're paired with the a "perfect" example of the breed (standard-wise)?

The goal with breeding is to pair good-excellent examples of the breed so that the offspring they produce are even better than their parents. But also take into consideration the health, temperament as well as gene pool (genetic diversity) into consideration.

I can be horrible with words at times and I know I can be rather blunt, so please take this sentence as a disclaimer... :) Blunt-ness to follow in the paragraph below (stop reading now if you think I may offend you). ;)

Personally, I'd put Butch Cassidy on limited/conditional registration. If his mask is what it is at this young age, he will indefinitely pass it on to his offspring. While he's a handsome chap, I wouldn't pick him for a future breeding dog. Why? His offspring could inherit his same faulty masking or it could be worse. Of course, it's not his fault at all....I honestly think it's just a luck of the draw (so to speak) and he got the "faulty mask" genes from his granddams - Nanna & Summer. Both of his granddams did not have full masks. As shown with Heidi's offspring example, it seems that the faulty masking can get worse. What if Butch Cassidy is used for breeding (say, everything is perfect except for his faulty mask) and he produces puppies with NO mask? Because registration type is left to the breeder to pass good judgement, some of his offspring with faulty masks may go on to breeding homes as well - that creates another problem that I don't think we need in this growing breed. We have enough issues with cryptorchidism, various genetic diseases/disorders carriers, etc. Of course, there's also the option of allowing him ONE litter to see how his offspring will turn out on the basis of preserving genetic diversity. But on the flip side, a bitch can only produce a certain number of litters (also on the basis of preserving genetic diversity) - if none of his offspring are suitable for breeding homes, then she could have been paird with a different male and more of her offspring could have been in breeding homes. In essence, you could see it as one breeding "wasted" (very crudely put, sorry). That could impact the breed because, what happens if she's the only puppy out of a outcross breeding that was suitable for a breeding? What if that was the only litter she could have?

However, it seems one of his siblings that meet breed standard at a young age will be going to a breeding home. The only caution is if Sundance Kid for some reason fails his health testing. But at the end of the day, being as conservative as I am, I wouldn't want to see Butch Cassidy to be used for breeding at all due to his masking. (Sorry if this offends anyone - please understand this is my personal opinion.) Bottom line: why risk it? is my question.

If I were a breeder and produced any pups with faults that I could see at a young age that I think could impact the next generation, then I'd put the pup on limited/conditional registration - even if it is going to a pet home. The limited/conditional registration can be appealed, I'm assuming, and the dog/bitch put on full registration later on. Would the breeder of the pup have a say in this appeal by the owner?

-- somewhat off topic --
I plan on becoming a breeder in the future and I will be getting a Tamaskan and a ANCD. Since I'm not yet ready (financially) for a puppy, I'm doing all I can to learn about the breed standard, puppy raising and all that good stuff. (I can't wait for the canine theriogenology class to start!!) Why? So that I'm informed and as ready as I can be, knowledge-wise, going into what I know will take a lifetime dedication. I know there will be ups and downs to the journey, but I don't mind if I am armed with the knowledge, that I can share it with others, but most of all - help the breed that I love. I think this is a quality every breeder should have, regardless of the breed.
-- end soapbox/off topic --

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Fri May 03, 2013 3:37 am

no offense taken here ;)

User avatar
darazan
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:54 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by darazan » Sat May 04, 2013 12:49 am

I think you're right, it seems that masking is something of major importance to the look of the breed and incorrect masking really does take away from the aesthetic goal of the breed. It's certainly something that we don't want to see become a huge issue later on and difficult to breed out of lines in the future. While I understand and support your desire to not want to offend anyone, I also feel that it is good to have such open communication about these things. Being able to talk openly and honestly about these topics gives everyone an opportunity to give their input on the future of the breed, whether or not they are a breeder, and it gives the TDR a chance to see what the group finds important and not and the dedication this group has to the future of the Tamaskan breed. All around, I think it's a good thing. :)
-Crystal

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Light masking

Post by arianwenarie » Sat May 04, 2013 1:10 am

darazan wrote:I think you're right, it seems that masking is something of major importance to the look of the breed and incorrect masking really does take away from the aesthetic goal of the breed. It's certainly something that we don't want to see become a huge issue later on and difficult to breed out of lines in the future. While I understand and support your desire to not want to offend anyone, I also feel that it is good to have such open communication about these things. Being able to talk openly and honestly about these topics gives everyone an opportunity to give their input on the future of the breed, whether or not they are a breeder, and it gives the TDR a chance to see what the group finds important and not and the dedication this group has to the future of the Tamaskan breed. All around, I think it's a good thing. :)
*hits the hidden "Like" button* ;)

@TDR Committee

Would it be reasonable for the TDR to place any pups with major faults (may they be aesthetic or otherwise; but mainly aesthetic) on limited/conditional registration regardless of what the breeder's opinion is? It would then be up to the owner to obtain their breeder's written opinion/evaluation based on video/picture(s) to submit an appeal to the TDR Committee to place the pup on full registration. Upon full registration, if the owner wished to use the dog/bitch for breeding, then they'd need to submit all the required health test results to get approved as a breeding dog.

I assume the AKC limited registration is similar to this procedure and I think the AKC needs permission from their breeder to allow a pup to be put on full registration. Unless this is already the procedure...?

I have another question on registration of pups, but I'll put that in the appropriate thread. ;)

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Light masking

Post by Tiantai » Sat May 04, 2013 3:48 am

Rahne wrote:Summer doesn't have the best masking either, and two of her pups ended up with white blazes around the muzzle.
If you're talking about the mother of your Konah then I agree. Ironic too considering that she comes from a line with known wolfdogs.
Image

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: Light masking

Post by arianwenarie » Sat May 04, 2013 4:18 am

Tiantai wrote:
Rahne wrote:Summer doesn't have the best masking either, and two of her pups ended up with white blazes around the muzzle.
If you're talking about the mother of your Konah then I agree. Ironic too considering that she comes from a line with known wolfdogs.
Summer may have gotten her masking from Valko/Whitefang or some of the dogs in the ancestry of the Utonagon (through Paloose).

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat May 04, 2013 6:43 am

I am still confused as to which faults are "less faulty" I assume there are more than just masks, because I have seen curly tails, soft tipped ears (ones that almost go "floppy" when running around) and white tipped tails, masks, large ears ("radar ears") . So does that mean that only masks are considered unable to be bred out? I guess I should go ask on the debate page too :)

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by TerriHolt » Sat May 04, 2013 10:19 am

balto13 wrote:I am still confused as to which faults are "less faulty" I assume there are more than just masks, because I have seen curly tails, soft tipped ears (ones that almost go "floppy" when running around) and white tipped tails, masks, large ears ("radar ears") . So does that mean that only masks are considered unable to be bred out? I guess I should go ask on the debate page too :)
I don't think this is a case of "more" or "less" faulty faults, it's more of a start as you mean to go on. No point adding faults and try to breed out the ones we have...

Mask:This mask is likely to pass down to offspring, pass down to their offspring... With each mating you want each litter to better the parents and if you know this won't happen with a pup you plan to breed, then why plan to breed that pup and not chose one more to breed standard?
Curly tail: Curly tails are a skeletal trait that is already an issue that needs breeding out which is why you breed a curly tail to a straight (as possible) tail. If it wasn't already an issue then i doubt dogs with bad/faulty tail would be used to save introducing it to the breed.

Hope this makes sense to everyone else, i've not had no where near enough coffee yet :oops:
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat May 04, 2013 11:09 am

TerriHolt wrote:
balto13 wrote:I am still confused as to which faults are "less faulty" I assume there are more than just masks, because I have seen curly tails, soft tipped ears (ones that almost go "floppy" when running around) and white tipped tails, masks, large ears ("radar ears") . So does that mean that only masks are considered unable to be bred out? I guess I should go ask on the debate page too :)
I don't think this is a case of "more" or "less" faulty faults, it's more of a start as you mean to go on. No point adding faults and try to breed out the ones we have...

Mask:This mask is likely to pass down to offspring, pass down to their offspring... With each mating you want each litter to better the parents and if you know this won't happen with a pup you plan to breed, then why plan to breed that pup and not chose one more to breed standard?
Curly tail: Curly tails are a skeletal trait that is already an issue that needs breeding out which is why you breed a curly tail to a straight (as possible) tail. If it wasn't already an issue then i doubt dogs with bad/faulty tail would be used to save introducing it to the breed.

Hope this makes sense to everyone else, i've not had no where near enough coffee yet :oops:
it does make make sense, thank you! :)

while breeders don't want to breed any more faults into the breed, does this mean there are minor and major faults, does it just go by severity of the fault,are are they all equal? sorry to ask so many questions :oops:

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Sylvaen » Sat May 04, 2013 12:46 pm

I think the 'severity' of the fault depends how strong (dominant) the trait is and, therefore, how easy it is to 'breed out' over successive generations. Curly tails can be gradually improved over time, by mating each successive generation with dogs that have perfectly straight tails BUT masking seems more hit and miss, and can pop up unexpectedly depending on the specific genetic combination... or several generations down the line. Curly tails come in several degrees: mildly curved all the way to tightly curled. In much the same way that masking can be patchy or poor, all the way to non-existent (bad). Evaluations should take place at 12 months old, by which point the final set (masking / tail carriage) is obvious, as both traits can change and develop quite drastically during puppyhood. (Curly tails can become straighter overtime, and vice-versa, while poor masking can fill in by adulthood.) Adult dogs with poor masking OR overly curled tails really should not be used for breeding, unless they are truly exemplary in all other respects: DM clear and absolutely perfect hips, relatively-fresh bloodline, etc. Breeding a dog with one major fault is comparable to breeding from a dog with several minor faults; it is particularly important to look at the dog it will be mated TO, so as to ensure that the match is complimentary and will minimize any faults in the offspring. Ultimately, the idea is to improve the breed with each successive generation so breeding from the very best dogs means good forward progression, rather than two steps forward and one step back.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat May 04, 2013 1:28 pm

Sylvaen wrote:I think the 'severity' of the fault depends how strong (dominant) the trait is and, therefore, how easy it is to 'breed out' over successive generations. Curly tails can be gradually improved over time, by mating each successive generation with dogs that have perfectly straight tails BUT masking seems more hit and miss, and can pop up unexpectedly depending on the specific genetic combination... or several generations down the line. Curly tails come in several degrees: mildly curved all the way to tightly curled. In much the same way that masking can be patchy or poor, all the way to non-existent (bad). Evaluations should take place at 12 months old, by which point the final set (masking / tail carriage) is obvious, as both traits can change and develop quite drastically during puppyhood. (Curly tails can become straighter overtime, and vice-versa, while poor masking can fill in by adulthood.) Adult dogs with poor masking OR overly curled tails really should not be used for breeding, unless they are truly exemplary in all other respects: DM clear and absolutely perfect hips, relatively-fresh bloodline, etc. Breeding a dog with one major fault is comparable to breeding from a dog with several minor faults; it is particularly important to look at the dog it will be mated TO, so as to ensure that the match is complimentary and will minimize any faults in the offspring. Ultimately, the idea is to improve the breed with each successive generation so breeding from the very best dogs means good forward progression, rather than two steps forward and one step back.

thank you!!!!!! :D

I really should pick up a dog genetics and an anatomy book :lol:

I assume these are all reasons why the outcrossing considerations are so strict? I ran across them one day while I was just kind of looking through the forum. I really like how it says that there should be as much known about prior generations.

and, when you go to sell a breeding quality when do you pick what pup goes where and how? I thought butch casidee's mask was much fuller at the younger age when all the pups were sorted.

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: Light masking

Post by Booma » Sat May 04, 2013 2:53 pm

Na jaq, his masking has been quite terrible from the start.
Image Image

Rahne

Re: Light masking

Post by Rahne » Sat May 04, 2013 3:34 pm

balto13 wrote:and, when you go to sell a breeding quality when do you pick what pup goes where and how?
I wouldn't choose before 5 weeks of age, around 6/7 weeks is probably the best time. Ideally, atleast one female and one male from every breeding combination ends up in a breeding home. What you see in reality is that usually more females end up for breeding then males, and then males can also sire more litters, but you would want to have the genes as equally spread as possible in the breed.

As a breeder you should really strive to select the 'best' pups for the breeding homes (those with good structure, coloring and temperament). I will not let my puppybuyers choose their own pup, instead they can tell me which pups are their favorites (top 3) and based on that and my own judgement I will decide who will get which pup. This would prevent someone who wants to breed to pick the cutest pup out of the litter, the one with a large blaze/blue eyes/floppy ears (as funnily enough the ones who look least to standard, the 'odd' pups, are most of the times the ones people tend to pick out as their favorite), and the people who just want a nice pet to choose the 'best' pup... which might then leave the 'odd' pup for the breeders home.

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Sat May 04, 2013 10:14 pm

Rahne wrote:
balto13 wrote:and, when you go to sell a breeding quality when do you pick what pup goes where and how?
I wouldn't choose before 5 weeks of age, around 6/7 weeks is probably the best time. Ideally, atleast one female and one male from every breeding combination ends up in a breeding home. What you see in reality is that usually more females end up for breeding then males, and then males can also sire more litters, but you would want to have the genes as equally spread as possible in the breed.

As a breeder you should really strive to select the 'best' pups for the breeding homes (those with good structure, coloring and temperament). I will not let my puppybuyers choose their own pup, instead they can tell me which pups are their favorites (top 3) and based on that and my own judgement I will decide who will get which pup. This would prevent someone who wants to breed to pick the cutest pup out of the litter, the one with a large blaze/blue eyes/floppy ears (as funnily enough the ones who look least to standard, the 'odd' pups, are most of the times the ones people tend to pick out as their favorite), and the people who just want a nice pet to choose the 'best' pup... which might then leave the 'odd' pup for the breeders home.

6/7 weeks sounds like a much easier age to be able to tell which puppies should go to which homes. I like how you chose puppies for people and have heard other breeders chose in a similar fashion.

thank you everyone for answering my "billion" questions ;)

User avatar
darazan
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:54 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Light masking

Post by darazan » Sun May 05, 2013 7:42 pm

I think it's very smart to choose in such a way as well. After all, as the breeder, you're the one that's spent the most time with these puppies and can more easily determine what the best home for each puppy would be.
-Crystal

Post Reply