Light masking

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Re: Light masking

Post by AZDehlin » Fri May 10, 2013 1:07 am

When and/or if I ever have a litter puppies won't be allocating until 8 weeks old.

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Re: Light masking

Post by Whispyr » Tue May 14, 2013 2:45 am

If/When I become a breeder I will begin considerations all along the way though likely wont make a final call until late in the 7th week.

Also, thanks for bringing up this topic, I didn't fully understand what masking was until now =D

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Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:15 pm

Just an update on his mask, it has gotten quite lighter, and in all photos, he does have a bit of a possum face. Do I find this a major fault? No. Perhaps because he is mine. I will also be attending the Tamaskan Dog Show in a couple of weeks and get a judge to check him structurally. I do plan to have Pharoah (Butch Cassidy)- health, hips, temperment tested. He is turning into a wonderful boy and I plan to find a female for him. If all goes well, and these things fall into place, I would be placing only pups that met standard, and will have a solid non-breeding contract on any dog I considered not to be standard (which may sound like going backwards to go forwards) - Everything matters on what female I get, if and when she passes all of her tests. There is so much more than a mask that I am taking into consideration. nd most likely, if this mask seems dominant in the first litter, then he will be destined to be a one time daddy. Granted, for all wondering, this will not even take place for a few years, and quite a bit can change in that time. Nothing is set in stone, and so many glitches pop up with life that I am going to discontinue worrying about his faulty mask. The contract I will have that goes with the pups he produces (if he produces) will stop a dominant mask from occurring again, as they will only be placed in companion homes. I cannot speak for recessive genetics, as most all tams have some. Please don't hate on my pup and I understand where everyone is coming from. His breeder assured me he was breeding material with the right mate, so hopefully she is out there somewhere!

weylyn

Re: Light masking

Post by weylyn » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:33 pm

Like I told before I can never hate your Puppy because I fell in love with him the first time I saw him on the photo's and he is a sort of grandson for me( I own his granddad) But I would never breed with him.
If all health test are good I can respect your decision even though I would never have made the same decision.
But because you have I would advise you to look for a girl with a really dark mask ( to dark for the standard) in the hope they make up to each other if you know what I mean......

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Re: Light masking

Post by Katlin » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:41 pm

weylyn wrote:But I would never breed with him.
If all health test are good I can respect your decision even though I would never have made the same decision.
I'm going to have to agree, if you knew you wanted to breed then you should have gotten exactly what you wanted in the first place. I knew I wanted to breed my boy but I also was fine with not breeding him if both his testes won't drop (only one has). I respect that you want to breed and have paid a lot of money for this puppy, but, IMHO, you shouldn't have chosen a puppy that was not in the breed standard. You may not think masking is important but it really is - it's a mis-coloring. Why do you think none of the piebalds have breed bred within the TDR?

You asked for our advice on the first post, we gave it and you ignored it. Now coming back and saying essentially that you don't care about the mis-coloring and that you're going to breed anyway is a bit of a slap in the face. I'm not sure if I'm taking this too far and I really don't mean to offend you... but the standard was written for a reason.

Good luck with your puppy.
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Re: Light masking

Post by GreyJoy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:04 pm

I will be posting again soon. but thank you all for taking the time to talk with me.

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Re: Light masking

Post by balto13 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:43 pm

Katlin wrote: You asked for our advice on the first post, we gave it and you ignored it. Now coming back and saying essentially that you don't care about the mis-coloring and that you're going to breed anyway is a bit of a slap in the face. I'm not sure if I'm taking this too far and I really don't mean to offend you... but the standard was written for a reason.

Good luck with your puppy.
I wouldn't say slap in the face - to me that's a bit far and more personal. I think he has made some good points, and you all have made good points. He did say this could all change in the next couple of years, so I hope that when the time comes he (Greyjoy) will take all things into consideration. For now, congrats on the new family member, tams are incredibly rare and pretty hard to come by :)

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Re: Light masking

Post by Booma » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:09 am

Noone is hating on your dog. Like katlin said you asked for peoples opinion and it was given. I also bought a dog to breed from, however I have found out that there is a lot of epilepsy and addisons in his pedigree, and may not use him, even though I spent $11000 to get him to Australia.
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Re: Light masking

Post by Lynwae » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:43 am

Regarding Balto, there is a lot of Addison and epilepsie in all the tam's pedigree.
We have to wait untill ours are 3 years old before considering breeding, so we can see if they are epilepsie "free" (the illness comes in the first 3 years of the animal).
And then choose a mate from the clearest line possible in that matter.

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Re: Light masking

Post by AZDehlin » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:13 am

Lynwae wrote:there is a lot of Addison and epilepsie in all the tam's pedigree.
Not all but a huge chunk... The outcross between Nana and Jackal are clear for example...They cant be the only ones?

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Re: Light masking

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:11 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
Lynwae wrote:there is a lot of Addison and epilepsie in all the tam's pedigree.
Not all but a huge chunk... The outcross between Nana and Jackal are clear for example...They cant be the only ones?
We can only assume that Nanna's background is clear (since epilepsy / Addison's have't *yet* popped up in that bloodline, as far as we know) but we can't know for certain that her bloodline truly is 100% clear since we know so little about her parents / siblings and any health issues they might have... hopefully the Devon/Raine X Jackal pups will also be 'clear'.
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Re: Light masking

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:32 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Lynwae wrote:there is a lot of Addison and epilepsie in all the tam's pedigree.
Not all but a huge chunk... The outcross between Nana and Jackal are clear for example...They cant be the only ones?
We can only assume that Nanna's background is clear (since epilepsy / Addison's have't *yet* popped up in that bloodline, as far as we know) but we can't know for certain that her bloodline truly is 100% clear since we know so little about her parents / siblings and any health issues they might have... hopefully the Devon/Raine X Jackal pups will also be 'clear'.
We will never know if they carry unless a test comes about for those. Even down the line you will never know if they are carriers them selves since to date all the nana pups have been bred to tamaskan dogs with epilepsy behind them at some point... so if it shows up you cant really say it is them that are the ones bringing it to the table.

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Re: Light masking

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:35 am

GreyJoy wrote:Do I find this a major fault? No. Perhaps because he is mine.
Tad late on this but...

This is a huge problem with people who want to breed. You have to take a step back and think, would this dog be bettering the breed? Most owners will not make suitable breeders because they are unable or unwilling to see their dogs faults and the reasons they shouldn't breed that dog.
You have to be able to make an unbiased judgment on your dog. Everyone loves their dogs and don't want to look at the bad things, most people can't see the bad things but to be a top notch breeder who breeds to better and further the breed then you need the ability to see your dog as a breeder, through a breeders eyes and with a breeders perspective.
It is pointless breeding for the sake of it because 1000's of homeless puppies die every year and not breeding to standard, you are taking a perfectly good home a homeless pup that is already here could have had.

This is why i respect the current breeders... They don't produce pups for the sake of it and unnecessarily taking risks that would be taking a perfectly good home from a homeless dog, they breed for a reason, for a purpose... For the breed...

Just saying...
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Re: Light masking

Post by TeresaC » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:27 pm

I think there are a lot factors that need to be considered. The more I talk with breeders, judges and conformation clinicians, the more I realize that not all faults are the same. Most of them will tell you structural faults are major faults. Shoulders that are not 45 degrees, weak hocks, poor movement, poor bite, temperment, etc. Minor faults are cosmetic such as tails, ear size, color, etc.

Shoulders can take 10 generations to fix. Breeding a dog with anything less than a 45 degree shoulder will impede movement and soundness. But fixing this is incredibly difficult. Fixing color, ear shape, curly tail, etc. is easier to fix in less generations. There are some that fall in middle because of genetics. Things like masking can show up for generations because of the bald (more white masking).

With this all said, I think we have to be careful because we have a small gene pool. We shouldn't be eliminating dogs because of every fault or we would never breed a single dog since all dogs contain some faults. We need to be carefule to weigh the fault against what the dog or bitch can add, are those genetics already readily available, and many other factors.

I for one am completely in agreement that litters should be evaluated for conformation and temperment and placed accordingly. The best puppies are placed in breeding homes and the rest in pet homes. The breeding homes need to be aware of the faults and how those fit into the breeding program of the breeder, the long term plan of the breeder to work on those faults, etc.
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Re: Light masking

Post by Beaverpup91 » Fri May 30, 2014 7:16 am

Hello everyone! I'm attempting my first post on the Forum. I'd like to add onto this conversation and pick up where it left off with questions about my own girl. She is Tarheel Queen of Hearts (call name Talia), and is a full sister to Tarheel Butch Cassidy. Talia is from the 2014 Tarheel Heart Litter (Jaeger x Sequoia).

It seems that both of her grandmothers have donated their faulty masking genes to Talia. I haven't seen pictures of Summer, but I have read that her masking wasn't the greatest, and Nanna's is quite obviously nonexistent. Talia's masking is incomplete, in that it does not touch her nose. It stops about an inch or so away, with either very light shadowing or just her dark skin showing through the short hairs in that inch between obvious masking and her nose leather. She also has a star on her forehead, which has significantly blended in as her guard hairs have grown out, and very large white eyebrows.

I have read this thread multiple times, and have given great thought to what has been said by all posters. When I purchased Talia, my desire was not just to bring a new member into my family, but to become a TDR registered breeder in the future. I expressed my wishes to have a female, and felt overjoyed when I found out that Talia would become my dog, especially since she was the only female in the litter! I found out she was mine when she was about 3 weeks old, and my husband and I visited the Tarheel pack three days before the litter's 4 week birthday. At the time, her mask looked quite different than it does now, and I didn't see any reason to worry about it. However, around week 5, her face got very white, and the cream colored edges of her mask disappeared almost completely. (At 16 weeks it is almost impossible for me to see where the cream colored masking is further down the sides of her muzzle.) I brought my concerns to John when I noticed the change in her masking, and he told me that he considered her mask to be acceptable, and that she is breeding quality. While I respect John, and am grateful for his thoughts, I also want to get the opinions of the rest of the breeding (and non-breeding) Tam community.

My goals with this post are: 1. To get your opinions on Talia's mask. How bad is it? I am aware that it is not to breed standard, but I guess I want to know just "how bad is bad." Especially since I would like to show her in conformation classes, but I don't want to waste my money if you guys think her mask will prevent her from winning anything. 2. To learn from your experience regarding breeding out poor masking. From what I have read already, it does sound challenging, since it can skip generations (Sequoia is a great example of that - her mask appears fine and to-standard despite carrying Nanna's genes). 3. To try to see if I can get a quantifiable list in order of severity the faults that breeders are trying to eliminate from the breed, with special regard to where poor masking falls on this list, along with comments and opinions on which faults are more or less serious than others. Of course, different breeders will have differences of opinions on exactly which faults are worse than others, but that is part of what makes each breeding program unique. If I ever do become a breeder, Health, Structure, and Temperament will ALWAYS be top priority for my breeding program, and **if** it turns out that Talia is acceptable as a breeding bitch, then I will be performing more than just the bare minimum in regards to genetic testing for health. I already plan on having her color tested this fall, since I am curious to find out what genes she carries, as well.

I appreciate all comments and advice that you guys have to offer. I am looking forward to your honesty, and to learning from your experience. Thank you for taking the time to give your thoughts on this post. Please see the photos I have included below.

Katie Beaver


Talia 3 days before turning 4 weeks:

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Talia at 3 days before turning 9 weeks:

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Talia at 16 weeks:

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Re: Light masking

Post by Miran » Fri May 30, 2014 8:08 am

I hope I can make my point in what I want to say clear to you and others because of the language.
Before I start I want you to know I love her anyways , how can I do something else...she is my grandkiddie ;)

When the genepool would have been very wide and well set I would say she would not be a good breeding bitch............
But because that isn't the case there are other things to look at.
Of course first of all is health in my opinion. Normal wise then structure then temperament but in the case the US is in I would turn the last 2 around.
Just for the genepool in the US I would look at in how many offspring of or sequoia or Jeager would be used in breeding.
If that is not so much AND the other things are in order I would def think about using her for breeding just to add and uphold the diversity of the genepool
If other of their offspring are used wide I would not .......hmmmm hope I made myself a bit clear on this???

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Re: Light masking

Post by Beaverpup91 » Fri May 30, 2014 8:17 am

Thank you, Miran! You were perfectly clear! :) I welcome honest criticism of Talia. It won't make me love her any less, but it is the right thing to do, to look at her objectively when considering her for breeding. Too many times, people think their dog is so wonderful and sweet and pretty that they should breed it, but they don't consider health, structure, temperament, or how they will improve the breed by breeding their dog! The result is a backyard breeder with oftentimes poor quality puppies that are given away for free or sold for very low prices to homes that aren't always good for the puppies. I do not want to make that mistake with Talia! I love her, but I love the Tamaskan breed, too! And I do not want to harm the breed, so if it is decided that Talia is not a quality bitch, then she will be spayed and will stay my happy forever pet, and I will search for an ideal female puppy for the future. That's why I am approaching everyone so openly, so that I can hear all you have to say, and I can think hard about things, and make the right decision. :)

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Re: Light masking

Post by Miran » Fri May 30, 2014 10:13 am

I am so happy you look at it that way. Just see if you can find out who wants to breed with offspring from her parents that are doing right at the standard. If there aren't or just 1 then please do consider to breed her for the diversity and then look at a good line in mask even if that would mean you have to do AI......

Because for a breed the diversity is also important to keep the health of the breed up ;)
If many from her parents that uphold better to the standard already go back into the breeding...well then you also know what I think and then just enjoy her lovely face because beside all she is lovely ;) :)

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Re: Light masking

Post by Wolfsbane » Fri May 30, 2014 10:51 am

I agree with Miran. There have been 2 Sequoia x Jaeger litters born, and maybe more??
As far as I have heard: Yue (female), Stardust (female), Pharaoh (male), Sawyer (male) are all considered for breeding in the future. I would wait and see how many of them will be used to further the breed... before making the decision to breed or not to breed.

Edit:
Sequoia x Wave puppies considered for breeding = Atlas (male), Tamina (female).
Kana x Jaeger puppies considered for breeding = Zelda (female).

And then Jaeger also had a litter with Sharayah + more litters planned in the future...

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Re: Light masking

Post by Hawthorne » Fri May 30, 2014 4:38 pm

One thing to consider is to take her to an ARBA show and show her when she is older. I would skip the gangly phase (6 months to 1 year). Try and show her and get some objective opinion on her structure. You will have to do preparation, though, as showing a dog takes lots of practice. (Sorry if you know this but some maybe do not.) You should be able to find conformation classes somewhere near you. You could start now by teaching her how to stand properly. It takes a lot of discipline on a dog's part to walk or trot into a correct stand.
Freyja enjoyed the show ring and if you make it fun and use novel treats there's no reason why she won't like it too.
I'm not sure what could be expected by breeding her. Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven). Perhaps the resulting pups would have some closer to standard. And that's the goal: to improve upon your bitch. If she is great structurally and is great temprement-wise then I would use her once and see what she produces. For the gene pool, it's actually better if more dogs have fewer litters than if only "the best of the best" breed. :D
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Re: Light masking

Post by Vajente » Fri May 30, 2014 5:15 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I'm not sure what could be expected by breeding her. Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven). Perhaps the resulting pups would have some closer to standard. And that's the goal: to improve upon your bitch. If she is great structurally and is great temprement-wise then I would use her once and see what she produces. For the gene pool, it's actually better if more dogs have fewer litters than if only "the best of the best" breed. :D
The bad masking seems to be a recessive thing. Just using a male with a heavy mask is not going to cut it, you need to look for a male that has mostly good masking in his direct ancestry.
For instance Raven might have a heavy mask but her father has had pups with bad masking so there is a chance she carries it.

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Re: Light masking

Post by Katlin » Sat May 31, 2014 4:47 am

Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven)
Wylie too ;)

I'd go for a male that definitely throws good masks, Jackal dogs normally do...
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Re: Light masking

Post by Beaverpup91 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:08 pm

Thank you so much for your advice, everyone! :) I'm definitely looking forward to showing her and getting professional opinions on her structure. Thank you for the showing advice, Tracy! I'll be talking to my grandmother a lot about training Talia to show--my grandparents used to breed and show Irish Setters. (As they got older, they decided to stop breeding and now they just show.) I do agree that skipping the awkward puppy period would be best, lol. I think getting Talia to NOT give the judge kisses during the teeth exam will be a challenge... ;D

I will be working with John to get in contact with the owners of other Jaeger and Sequoia pups from each of their litters who are interested in breeding. I want to make a list of who's going to possibly breed, along with which particular lines and individual dogs each one wants to breed with, and what they hope to produce with each mating. If anyone knows or has heard that someone is thinking of breeding, I'd appreciate it if you could help me get in contact with them! So far I just know of Tarheel Wild At Heart (Sawyer), Tarheel Lionheart (Blaez), Tarheel Harlequin (Zelda) and possibly Tarheel Butch Cassidy (Pharoah), along with Atlas and Tamina as Wolfsbane mentioned above. :)

Since I enjoy learning about bloodlines and genetics, I've been continuing my train of thought under the hypothetical that Talia would be acceptable for one trial litter, both for education and just pure enjoyment:
I looked at every available stud listed on the TDR website (not including the outcross studs), including the studs in Europe and Australia, and I couldn't find a single one that Talia didn't share a common ancestor with in the last 5 generations. I think that if Talia is considered acceptable for a litter in the future, it would have to be with an outcross stud, to limit the amount of inbreeding in this line? That would help continue the Jaeger x Sequoia line with fresh blood. Sawyer and Tessen's future litter would be the only other Jaeger x Sequoia pup that would have a fresh bloodline from Ninja (that I know of--again, I don't know who else from Jaeger x Sequoia is really considering breeding, or who they want to breed with). My only concern with finding an outcross is that I am extremely wary of picking out any kind of Husky to pair Talia with. I feel like she already has too much of a Husky look to her, and I would want to bring more of the wolfy build back into her offspring. Which brings me to the question, which breeds would be most appropriate to look in? The most prolific breeds in Talia's pedigree are SWD from Djoser, and CWD from Jackal....and the triple whammy of Siberian Husky from Jackal, Summer and Nanna. Which breeds do you guys feel would best bring more of a wolf-like build to Talia's offspring and still provide valuable fresh bloodlines? Would it be another Saarrloos WD, Czech WD, or something new, like the British Timber Dog? I know that Hitenshi is hoping to get an ANCD stud approved for Zelda, so I don't know if I would look to that breed for Talia. I'm not sure how interested Gene is in adding too many of her dogs to the Tam's foundation list, and how interested the Tam community is in bringing in more than one ANCD stud.

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Re: Light masking

Post by Miran » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Gene has great and gorgeous dogs so....never a failure to ask ;) you already have a no and when you ask you can get a yes ;)

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Re: Light masking

Post by Vajente » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Katlin wrote:
Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven)
Wylie too ;)

I'd go for a male that definitely throws good masks, Jackal dogs normally do...
She is too closely related to Jackal plus that Jackal himself always threw good mask that doesn't mean his offspring does too(just look at Sequoia, Leia and Ravi)
Avoiding dogs with Nanna, Skye, Summer or Devon in their lines would probably be enough and she is already related to all of those

an outcross would probably be best for her

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Re: Light masking

Post by Mohegan16 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:32 pm

I know it's really early to be posting about breeding for us since Mohegan is only about 10 weeks old, but he is a full brother to Tessen and hopefully as he gets bigger he will have one of those very dark masks some have posted about. I can't wait to see how he develops!
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Re: Light masking

Post by Beaverpup91 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:37 pm

He is adorable! :D You'll have to post updates for us as he grows! :)

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Re: Light masking

Post by firleymj » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:44 pm

Handsome. Enjoy the ultra cute year you're having. When they grow up they become merely magnificent and a source of pride and joy. :lol:

Mark (owned by Hawthorne James Watson, call name Kona)
My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown
The greatest love is a mother's; then a dog's; then a sweetheart's. ~Polish Proverb

The human of Ch.(ARBA) and Ch.(KCUSA) Hawthorne James Watson (call name Kona)

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Nino
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Re: Light masking

Post by Nino » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:11 pm

Looking at only her masking, it is indeed quite poor..
I have to say that it could already be seen at the first picture you show, that the eyebrows would be very dominant in the face.
Actually the eyebrows are the worst feature of her masking, taking them away, her masking isn't actually that bad.
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Re: Light masking

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:04 pm

Vajente wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:I'm not sure what could be expected by breeding her. Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven). Perhaps the resulting pups would have some closer to standard. And that's the goal: to improve upon your bitch. If she is great structurally and is great temprement-wise then I would use her once and see what she produces. For the gene pool, it's actually better if more dogs have fewer litters than if only "the best of the best" breed. :D
The bad masking seems to be a recessive thing. Just using a male with a heavy mask is not going to cut it, you need to look for a male that has mostly good masking in his direct ancestry.
For instance Raven might have a heavy mask but her father has had pups with bad masking so there is a chance she carries it.
So, out of curiosity you don't think that which generation a dog is has any influence over this? For example, Freyja is a G3 with good masking. Her parents also had good masking. Once you breed good mask to good mask over and over that trait should "set."

When you say Dylan has produced bad masks--do you mean with Leia? Here's my theory again: Dylan is G2 and Leia is G1. While the Yellowstone litter between Dylan and Freyja was G2 x G3. And our most recent litter produced correct masking despite the fact that it was G3 x FD. All pups, even the four deceased, had proper masking. Thoughts?
Tracy Graziano
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Re: Light masking

Post by Vajente » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:05 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
Vajente wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:I'm not sure what could be expected by breeding her. Say if you bred her to a male with a very heavy mask (say if Raven were a male--sorry I can't think of any boys off the top of my head with as much masking as Raven). Perhaps the resulting pups would have some closer to standard. And that's the goal: to improve upon your bitch. If she is great structurally and is great temprement-wise then I would use her once and see what she produces. For the gene pool, it's actually better if more dogs have fewer litters than if only "the best of the best" breed. :D
The bad masking seems to be a recessive thing. Just using a male with a heavy mask is not going to cut it, you need to look for a male that has mostly good masking in his direct ancestry.
For instance Raven might have a heavy mask but her father has had pups with bad masking so there is a chance she carries it.
So, out of curiosity you don't think that which generation a dog is has any influence over this? For example, Freyja is a G3 with good masking. Her parents also had good masking. Once you breed good mask to good mask over and over that trait should "set."

When you say Dylan has produced bad masks--do you mean with Leia? Here's my theory again: Dylan is G2 and Leia is G1. While the Yellowstone litter between Dylan and Freyja was G2 x G3. And our most recent litter produced correct masking despite the fact that it was G3 x FD. All pups, even the four deceased, had proper masking. Thoughts?
No which generation of Tamaskan the dog is doesn't matter. A lot off the G1 litters had good mask even FD x FD. What matters is what's behind the dog if there is only good masking behind the dog(doesn't matter what breed) the probability off it producing bad mask is very low even when bred to a dog with bad masking(Nanna x Jackal for instance). If a dog does have bad masking behing it and it's bred to a dog that also has bad masking behind it then there is a good chance they'll produce pups with bad masking but it has to be behind both parents.

I mean Dylans pups with Leia yes. My theory: Leia carries bad masking from her mother Nanna and Dylan carries bad masking from his father Skye (although Skye himself didn't have bad masking his sister has)
if you look at the other litters that produced bad masking you see that it's the same dogs that are behind it.

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