Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Aushra » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:15 pm

Y'all have been great 'bout teaching me differences between the Tamaskan (is there a nickname for them?) & the NI & I figure that perhaps starting a new thread would be a better way to go than continuing in the Intro thread. lol
So, what are your thoughts on these 2 breeds? Thank you!!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by blufawn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:02 pm

You can call them Tams
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:31 pm

Saarloos & Czech Wolfdog both belong to FCI Group 1 (Sheepdogs and cattle dogs) due to the German Shepherd content. Originally the German Shepherd was a wolfdog (Alsatian Wolfdog) but over time it became a recognized breed and they edited some pedigrees by changing names far back in the ancestry, to disguise wolf content. Anyway, to get back on track, Saarloos & Czech were created by crossing GSDs with wolves. Saarloos = male GSD X female Eurasian Wolf. Czech = 48 working-line GSDs X 5 Eurasian wolves. In my mind, the differences between the breeds (appearance and temperament) predominantly results from the types of GSD that were used (working lines vs show lines) and the amount of wolf content, as well as selective breeding. Now both breeds are officially recognized by the FCI and the wolf ancestry is so far removed (F8+ usually around F20) that they are not really considered true "wolfdogs" anymore (F1-F3, or F5 depending on geographical politics), but legitimate recognized breeds of their own merits - just as the GSD is no longer considered a "wolfdog" - however it will still be some time before the general public considers these breeds as just regular dogs, since they are bred to look like wolves, and some individuals still retain some wolf-like behavioral characteristics.

Appearance:
* Czech Wolfdogs generally have smaller ears and shorter coat length. The colors are normally lighter (sandy / peppered throughout) and blend in to create indistinct (light) masking. Czech Wolfdogs males can be quite large but overall the breed is of medium height.

* Saarlooswolfhond generally have slightly larger / taller ears and a longer coat length. The colors are normally a bit darker (and they have several varieties: wolf grey and forest brown) and more distinctive masking. Saarlooswolfdogs are a bit larger / taller / heavier overall.

Both breeds have yellow / amber eyes.
(Of the 2 breeds, I personally prefer the appearance of the Saarloos overall... though some individual Czech wolfdogs are really gorgeous.)

Temperament:
* Czech Wolfdogs are bold and outgoing, occasionally aggressive with a high prey drive. They are quick learners and very intelligent, very active and can make good working dogs... similar to German Shepherds... IF they have the right motivation. Unsocialized dogs can be a real nightmare and there is usually some aggression with other dogs, depending on the individual character. They are difficult dogs and not for a "first time" owner in my opinion. Some dogs display much more of the wolf behavioral characteristics than others. "The breed was engineered to assist with border patrol in Czechoslovakia but were later also used in search and rescue, schutzhund, tracking, herding, agility, obedience, and drafting."

* Saarlooswolfhonden (in my experience) are generally more timid and shy / reserved (though this varies from individual to individual) and overall they can be quite stubborn. "Saarlooswolfdog is a strong imposing dog, but it kept its wolf-like characteristics; it is cautious, reserved and lacks the ferocity to attack." They are very intelligent but don't really make good working dogs... they are good family pets but not for the "first time" dog owner either. "In the past, some Saarlooswolfdogs were trained as guide dogs for the blind and rescue dogs." They have a strong pack bond and need a owner that knows how to be boss and motivate them. I find their prey drive (as a whole) isn't quite on the same level as that of the Czech Wolfdog.

(Of the 2 breeds, I feel that the Saarlooswolfhond has a "softer" character and the Czech Wolfdog has a "harder" character.)

How these 2 wolfdog breeds compare to the Tamaskan:
When the Tamaskan Dog becomes a recognized breed, it will be totally distinct and unique from the other 2 breeds as it will belong to FCI Group 5 (Spitz and Primitive Types) due to the Husky content. Whereas Saarloos and Czech have mostly GSD content, Tamaskan Dogs are (predominantly) a mix of all the Arctic Breeds: agouti colored Siberian Huskies, wolf grey Alaskan Malamutes, Northern Inuits (which is in itself a husky cross), Finnish Sled Racing dogs (like Alaskan Huskies: crossbreeds designed for speed and working sled-dog ability), with a bit of sable colored German Shepherd to add certain breed traits (longer legs, less curly tail, etc). The Tamaskan was bred to LOOK like a wolf, but without the typical "wolfy" behavioral traits.

Appearance:
Tamaskans generally fall between the Saarloos and Czech Wolfdog with regards to coat length and ear length. Due to the husky content, tails are usually a bit curlier than the other wolfdog breeds. Colors range from Red Grey to Wolf Grey to Black Grey (with some very light dogs, almost white, all the way to some very dark dogs, almost black) to encompass all the colors seen in wild wolf packs. Masking is more distinctive than either of the other 2 wolfdog breeds (owing to the husky content) but most Tamaskans have dark brown eyes... yellow eyes are recessive but do exist in the bloodlines. Blue eyes or mismatched eyes are not allowed. Size-wise, they fall between Siberian Huskies and Alaskan Malamutes, with regards to bone and heaviness, but most bloodlines are tall and lanky (about the height of a GSD).

Temperament:
Tamaskan Dogs make good working dogs: pulling sleds, search and rescue, tracking, agility, obedience, guide dogs for the blind, therapy dogs, etc but also make excellent family pets. Of the other wolfdog breeds, I find they have a lower prey drive overall and get along with almost all other dogs (fights are very very rare). Some Tamaskans are more attuned to sled pulling while others are better at agility. My male has great endurance and tracking ability, so is really good at search & rescue (though he doesn't know how to bark) whereas my female is much faster and better at agility (my male is too "leggy" and clumsy) - she is also much better at obedience and listens better... but my male knows more tricks and learns faster. (Both are very food motivated.) My female is happy to comply whereas my male is more stubborn and self-motivated (the traits of a sled dog) - my female is also more gentle and not so rambunctious but my male is still a real goofball, very bouncy and likes to play rough. Tamaskan Dogs are not as stubborn or laid-back as Alaskan Malamutes but they are also no where near as active / hyperactive as Siberian Huskies. At home, Tamaskan Dogs are really chilled out (couch potatoes) with occasional "playtime" (if you have more than one). Outdoors, they are very active and love to run and play... they don't NEED to work / run (unlike huskies) but they do love a good hike and have the endurance to go on and on.

If you know what to look for, it's really quite easy to tell the differences between the 3 breeds with regards to appearance. Temperament is more generalized and can vary a lot from dog to dog. Overall, Tamaskan Dogs are my favorite. ;)
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by blufawn » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:33 pm

Brilliant reply Debby.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:21 pm

Thanks :)
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Taz » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:20 am

Very interesting post Debby.

Just one thing though, you suggest tamaskans could be used as guide dogs, has this been proven? its just that when I asked about it on the old forum it was said that they wouldn't be suitable for such a task, so was just wondering what had changed.

Having a guide dog here, I know what's expected of them/what they're trained to do etc.

Next thing on his list of *tricks* to learn, finding the buttons on elevators, though that is a specific requirement, not a general one. It is also something that can be modified ie, he could be taught to only indicate certain buttons in certain places as aposed to all of them, everywhere.
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by blufawn » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:43 am

Like all breeds I think you would have to select the right dog. I don't think most Tamaskan would have a long enough concentration span, but that doesn't mean its impossible to find a Tamaskan that could do it. I think I have one here that could.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Aushra » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:43 pm

Thank you once again for your replies, & Sylvaen for the details!!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by MoirAran » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:57 pm

We have 2 Saarloos Wolfdogs.

I agree with Debby's post.

But in appearance. Marijke Saarloos, daugther of the founder of the breed, thinks some Tamaskans look more like a Saarloos then some pure bred Saarloos do :D And some Tamaskans really look like a Czech :D

Both Czech and Saarloos are great escapists, Czech even more. Czech can also open your fridge, kitchen cabinets, etc.
They both don't like to be locked up, like in a bench, they just wanna be with their owner.
They both can tear your place down.

Czech is indeed more of a working dog. They can be very defensive of their own house/yard. They shouldn't be aggressive. But when they grow up, they need a extreme good guidance of their owner. There are Czech who go after other dogs, mostly of the same sexe.

Saarloos are more laid-back, also real couch potatoes. But can be a good working dog too if you are lucky. One of the dogs of our litter has a owner who is a ranger. Already this dog can track down a wounded deer, like his boss has teached him and he is 11 months old. More Saarloos are very good in tracking things/aminals/humans down.
It is a lot harder to train them coz of their subborn, but we know several Saarloos who are good doggydance etc.

The Saarloos has a more instinctive way of thinking coz they are closer to nature.
They are very social, and really good in dog language. If another dog doesn't know the language they will correct it.
A Saarloos can correct another dog in his pack in a very hard way, if for example the other dog keeps on barking for no reason. The Saarloos will think: you put my pack in jeopardy with your unneccessary barking.

Also Saarloos are very sensitive dogs. They sense if someone or a dog have defective genes. They really can react to that. Saarloos can see small dogs as a prey (also Czech can). Especially when you are walking with several dogs, they can go work as a pack and hunt down a small dog or sheep or whatever.

When Saarloos bitches in the same are gonna fight, they never get along afterwards. You never can put them together again. Saarloos bitces will fight till death.
This behavior is only natural, coz they are still close to nature, it's their instinct. If you understand that, you won't have a problem ;)

But they make such lovely companions. They are so gentle and patient. They get along so great with kids. So loving, so caring. They have a great sense of humor. They nurse you if you are feeling ill.
A Saarloos is a way of living, once you have been bitten by the Saarloos virus . . . :mrgreen:
Greetings, Kristel
Aran & Moira & Rayne

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Aushra » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:40 pm

Thank you MoirAran, that was very interesting stuff!!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by claireyclaire » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:26 pm

MoirAran wrote:We have 2 Saarloos Wolfdogs.

Czech can also open your fridge, kitchen cabinets, etc.
I have a Tamaskan that can do this too!
“You can take the dog out of the Wolf Pack, But you can't take the Wolf Pack out of the dog"

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:07 pm

Great post MoirAran! It really shows more of the differences between the three breeds, with regards to temperament. :)
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by MoirAran » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:48 pm

claireyclaire wrote:
MoirAran wrote:We have 2 Saarloos Wolfdogs.

Czech can also open your fridge, kitchen cabinets, etc.
I have a Tamaskan that can do this too!
A Saarloos can do this too :evil: We found out this afternoon.
Greetings, Kristel
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:43 pm

LOOOL :D

I know the feeling. One time when I went out (for work) and left the dogs alone for about 2 hours, I came home to find that they'd opened the freezer, dragged open the freezer draws (out of the fridge), opened up several packets, and eaten ALL the meat... :roll:
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by MoirAran » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:57 pm

Moira opened the fridge and ate 1,5 kg meat for dogs + 1 kg meat for our dinner + 1 kilo potatoes + 1 liter dessert. And afterwards she poop and pee everywhere :evil:
Anyone wanna have a wolfgrey eating machine, low maintenance, doesn't require food for the next weeks :mrgreen:
Greetings, Kristel
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Aushra » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:39 pm

PMSL MoirAran!!!! :lol:

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by JulieSmith » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:05 pm

LOL, I hope you had some other food in the house. Oh and memo to self, get lock for fridge and freezer before I get my Tamaskan!!

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by claireyclaire » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:59 am

Sylvaen wrote:LOOOL :D

I know the feeling. One time when I went out (for work) and left the dogs alone for about 2 hours, I came home to find that they'd opened the freezer, dragged open the freezer draws (out of the fridge), opened up several packets, and eaten ALL the meat... :roll:
Elska has got into the freezer twice, wierdly though she seemed to eat my veggie sausages and burgers first, before going onto the chips and onion rings!!! Very poorly tummy followed! We now have puppy fencing around our fridge/freezer!

She has also managed to jump onto the kitchen worktop and empty those cupboards too!
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by JessieLove09 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:03 pm

What about Utonagan are they like the Tamaskans? Bred to look like a wolf with no wolf blood?
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Sylvaen » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:21 pm

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by JessieLove09 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:28 pm

Sylvaen wrote:Tamaskan vs. Utonagan ;)
Thank you. :D
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Tiantai » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:07 pm

I apologize in advance for bumping up, or should I say "reviving" this old topic but after reading several recent comments in other topics discussing the differences between the Tamaskans and the other two breeds I just thought maybe it might be worthy to add a pictorial breed comparison between the Tamaskan's standard with the standard of the other two breeds on the official (.org) website. Plus we now know that there are Czech and Saarloos in the Tamaskan breed as well as actual wolf-contents in some lines.
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by weylyn » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:49 am

Lucas there are indeed Saarloos and CwD already in but I do not know about the CwD that was used but I think it is the same with the Saarloos that was used in the tamaskan doesn't really ad up in temperament by the standard of their own breed ;)

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Nino » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:12 pm

weylyn wrote:Lucas there are indeed Saarloos and CwD already in but I do not know about the CwD that was used but I think it is the same with the Saarloos that was used in the tamaskan doesn't really ad up in temperament by the standard of their own breed ;)
The CSV used in the breed was Oxbow Léva-Nève (aka Oskari) - but he was not directly used, but through cross breeding with Husky and the offspring of such mating's were used in the Tamaskan.
It could have softened the temper up, but I never got the chance to meet Oskari so I cannot say if he was of exceptional temperament like Bobbi
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:39 pm

Well while I don't know about Oskari's temperament either, I do know that there are Czech dogs out there who are very friendly and open to strangers much like many Siberian Huskies and Alaskan Malamute are. It's uncommon, but there are and I think if we can find a lot of those in the future then we might later on be able to get some vetted by the committees to see whether if they could make good outcrosses or not. Of course, temperament isn't the only thing, there will be many background stuff to check more. After all, from my understanding the goal is to improve the Tamaskan breed especially in the cases with their health and many other too long details to list here, not just their temperament and appearances.


On a side note, I know that there are also a lot of pure Grey wolf subspecies in the Far-East who are more docile such as the Chongching wolves, Mongolian wolves, Tibetan wolves, and Indian wolves in comparison to the northern Eurasian and American subspecies, though they are still not 100% dog-like but I was thinking hypothetically if someone manages to obtain a low-content or lower-mid content Siberian Husky-Eastasian wolf cross (and there's a hell lot of those in China, India, Pakistan, South Korea, and Vietnam) with a very good temperament, healthy background, and has the correct lupine coat, would it be eligible for vetting with the TDR committee for possible outcrossing? Now, I understand that a lot of us don't want anymore "true wolfdogs" being added into the breed but on the other hand I fear that if we want to keep some of the wolf-like qualities that already exist in the current Tamaskans as well as the appearances then I do believe a little bit of wolf gene may be necessary somewhere down the line. Otherwise, like a few have already said in other topis, the breed would only turn more husky-like should we keep on outcrossing with just those northern spitz alone. In my personal opinion, a few of the dogs like Leia and Sequoia already look more like Husky-mix than wolf-like to my eyes. No offence to Amit and John but I'm just stating my honest opinion. :mrgreen:
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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Rahne » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:49 pm

Tiantai wrote:Well while I don't know about Oskari's temperament either, I do know that there are Czech dogs out there who are very friendly and open to strangers much like many Siberian Huskies and Alaskan Malamute are. It's uncommon, but there are and I think if we can find a lot of those in the future then we might later on be able to get some vetted by the committees to see whether if they could make good outcrosses or not.
It's not uncommon, they are supposed to be friendly and open towards strangers.

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by weylyn » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:15 pm

indeed CwD are open it is the Saarloos that is common not to ;)

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Re: Tamaskans VS Saarlooswolfhond & Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:48 pm

Yeah I did confused them with the Saarloos. Oops :lol:
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