Dilute Colors

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Dilute Colors

Post by Rambler » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:07 pm

Another picture for the "Future Tamaskan Wish List": a Blue Wolfdog! :D
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Misaya » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:50 pm

Gorgeous!!
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:54 pm

Really nice. The eyes are quite rounded, more bluish than yellow... could just be the lighting though.
Stunning wolfdog. <3
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Rambler » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:22 pm

I found the pictures while on the internet.
I assume this puppy picture is of the same wolfdog.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Valravn » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:11 am

Beautiful... such an unusual color. :)

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by JessieLove09 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:12 am

That wolfdog belongs to Southern Breeze wolfdogs, a breeder. Beautiful animals.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Kootenaywolf » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:40 am

Yeah I see someone beat me to it, but that's Slate from Southern Breeze. She's a mid-content wolfdog, of the very unusual solid blue colouring. The eyes are really pale lemon yellow/green, not blue. I love browsing the Tamaskan forum and it was super surprising to see a picture of Slate here! I'm going to be getting a pup from her in 2012. She will be bred with a registered solid blue long-coat GSD. Should produce some stunning pups!

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by JessieLove09 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:16 am

I don't know if you guys know, but a GSD being Blue is considered a fault in the breed (it is just a color.) but it is fault along with liver and white (white is in the process of no longer being a fault I think.)
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Nino » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:20 am

We have a separate breed of White GSD in DK - recognized as far as I know..

Seen Liver/chocolate GSD's but never a Blue one..
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Blustag » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:25 am

The White GSD in Europe is known as the Swiss White Shepherd and is registered with the FCI... my friend in Finland specialises in them.

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Kootenaywolf » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:15 pm

JessieLove09 wrote:I don't know if you guys know, but a GSD being Blue is considered a fault in the breed (it is just a color.) but it is fault along with liver and white (white is in the process of no longer being a fault I think.)
Yeah I do know that, however there are still breeders who breed them because the colour is really gorgeous, just like with many unrecognized colours.

This is sire as a pup:
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Misaya » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:11 pm

Kootenaywolf wrote:I'm going to be getting a pup from her in 2012. She will be bred with a registered solid blue long-coat GSD. Should produce some stunning pups!
Hope you will post some pictures when you get her/him, should be a beautiful pup :)
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by JulieSmith » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:29 pm

He looks wonderful, who cares if it is not an officially recognized colour he is super.
I am sure the pups will look great to I also hope you post some pictures when you get yours.

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Blustag » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 pm

Beautiful dog :)

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by JessieLove09 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:28 pm

Kootenaywolf wrote:Yeah I do know that, however there are still breeders who breed them because the colour is really gorgeous, just like with many unrecognized colours.
Never said anything is wrong with it. Just stating a fact. He can be registered as a GSD but just can't be shown (unless its different in Europe). I didn't say they were ugly either. Personally, I think its ridiculous to make a color a fault such as white, liver, and blue, because it doesn't effect the dog's working ability and health (which should come first before color).

No doubt she has beautiful dogs. I hope (hear and have read) she breeds the right way and responsibly.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Kootenaywolf » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:56 pm

He is a gorgeous guy, isn't he! I also think it's ridiculous to make colours a fault when there are so many other much more important things to focus on. Hehe I agree a blue Tamaskan would be quite nice :D The thing I love about the Blue GSDs is that they look quite wolfy already with the light eyes.

I will definitely post pictures here once I get my pup, however it will be a while - almost a year and a half! Here is Jordan's (the pup pictured) dam, she is from France: http://www.bergernoir.lesgardiensdupacte.com/lady.htm

And yes, Southern Breeze has a really good reputation in the wolfdog world, where there are SO many unethical breeders. She has been breeding for 20+ years and really knows what she is doing. Slate, the Blue WD pictured before, is an F5 (5 generations removed from the last pure wolf) and a very good example of her breeding program. She is just starting the low-content breeding with these Blue GSDs.

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:39 am

I can somewhat understand about color faults as sometimes (but not always) various colors are associated with serious health issues... such as the "lethal white gene" in horses or white cats with blue eyes (usually deaf)...

Here's some more info about dilute color variations and their associated health problems in dogs:
Recently there are several dog clubs, groups and breeders speak about "Color Breeding" with disdain. The research we conduct is not meant to advocate that dog breeders purposefully crossbreed or breed mutants to introduce colors or patterns that were not a tradition in their breed. Our research is meant to help dog breeders understand how coat colors and patterns are inherited so that if more than one color variant has been a classic color in their breed, they can plan matings to get pups of one or another color or several if that suits the aims of their breeding program. I do not think that rare colors should raise the price, let alone the "value" of a dog. I would hope that we value every dog we bring into our life, whatever breed or color it might be.

Color has been an integral trait in the development of many dog breeds. It was used for at least one hundred years as one of the traits under selection. In a few cases, certain colors were selected against because the people at a particular time in history thought these colors typically brought health related problems with them. Some colors do. Other colors were selected against or for because the breeders felt that those colors help that breed do its job better, as in the case of the preponderance of brown colored hunting dogs in the European hunting breeds. Those 19th century hunters thought that brown was a better camouflage color and several of them were poaching game on the baron's land!

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html
Color-dilution alopecia appears to be the same disorder as Black Hair Follicular Dysplasia but covers a wider range of coat colors. It is also called Blue Doberman Syndrome, Fawn Irish Setter Syndrome, and Blue Dog disease.

Blue coat color appears to be caused by at least two different mutations in the MLPH gene in the 30 breeds we studied. The commmon mutation causes dilute coat color in most dogs that are born blue or grey. The symptoms of this disorder vary widely among individuals for reasons that are not clear at this time. The symptoms seem worst in Large Munsterlanders but Newfoundlands, Doberman Pinschers, Great Danes, Weimaraners, and Italian Greyhounds can all have symptoms. Patchy hair loss on the ears, head and along the spinal column seems to be the most common symptom. Dermatitis, wrinkled skin, allergic skin reactions, etc. all occur. Some dogs are free of symptoms early in life and then develop them later.

We have collected DNA samples from blue dogs with and without symptoms to try to understand if the groups in each group had a different mutation. However some dogs with the common mutation and some without it had CDA symptoms and others did not. There may be a slightly higher chance that males may suffer more severe symptoms than females.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogconditions.html
The blue and fawn traits are caused by a dilution trait. Blue is a dilute form of black, and fawn is a dilute form of red. This dilution trait can also cause a condition known as Color Dilution Alopecia (CDA), which causes many blue and fawn dogs to lose fur. This condition affects dogs in several different breeds. Dogs with CDA are otherwise normal, and they can live long healthy lives despite their missing fur.

http://www.whitedobes.com/
THE BLUE COAT COLORING IN MOST BREEDS IS ASSOCIATED WITH
SKIN PROBLEMS. BLUE COATED DOGS OF ALL BREEDS ARE MORE
PRONE TO BACTERIAL, VIRAL, STAPH AND FUNGAL INFECTIONS AS
WELL AS VARIOUS FORMS OF DERMATITIS, ALLERGIES, DEMODEX AND
COLOR MUTANT ALOPECIA. WHILE SOME OF THESE CONDITIONS ARE
HEREDITARY MANY OF THEM ARE SIMPLY THE RESULT OF THE BLUE
COAT COLORING.

http://www.riospitbull.com/blue_pitbulls.htm
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Tamaddict » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:09 am

wow, that's interesting.
I knew about white cats but I didn't realize that there was anything similar in dogs. I wonder what percentage suffer from hair loss.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Taz » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:45 pm

There have apparently been talks amongst some sbt breeders in the uk about banning blue x blue matings, dew to an apparent increase in skin etc related issues croping up with blue dogs. The other suggestion was to make the colour undesirable in the standard as was done with black and tan.

Lovely looking wolfdog. Would be interested to know if his breeder has experienced any skin/fur related issues so far with breeding for a dilute black.

I think a blue tam would be a nice looking animal however, I'm not sure how much it would add to the wolfy look over all.

I do find it daft to ban a colour that has no impact on health and working ability however, colours that have issues associated with them need researching and to be effectively managed.

I love blue gsds, but I do not agree with breeding just for the sake of a pretty colour, and wouldn't go near a breeder who places more importants on the colour of the dog, then its over all conformation, health and temperament.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Kootenaywolf » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:50 pm

Southern Breeze hasn't had any skin or other health related issues crop up whatsoever. And neither has the breeder that the stud pup came from, either.
I agree though, I would never buy from a breeder who focused entirely on colour. Luckily I feel very certain that the whole picture is being taken into account here :)

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:59 pm

After doing some research, my concern would be that mating a blue wolfdog with a blue GSD, could result in hairloss issues in the offspring. Will you be getting a pup from that first mating, or a subsequent one?
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Kootenaywolf » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:18 pm

The litter I'm looking at will be the second cross, so I will have a chance to see if any issues do crop up in the first litter. I've read about the hairloss issues but I've talked with quite a few owners of blue dogs, wolfdog and GSD, and haven't actually heard of any firsthand experience of it. I know the stud dog's mother came from a blue/blue breeding and she has no health issues whatsoever. I'm definitely aware of the issue though, and it's one of many reasons that I'm waiting for the second litter - I really want to see how the first turns out in all aspects :)

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:02 pm

Cool, yeah that's a really good idea. :)
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by JessieLove09 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:58 am

Sadly its common to see "breeders" of GSDs only breeding for color and not much else.

I know for Dobermans, Blue Dobermans are known to have skin problems.

I really like Chives coloring. :D
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by GothicWolfGoddess » Mon May 06, 2013 1:04 am

My mother had a blue and tan Miniature Pinscher who had hair loss problems. So far her blue and tan pup has yet to have those issues, but it might show up later in life.

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Taz » Mon May 06, 2013 12:36 pm

One of Cato's litter sisters has blue masking and pigmentation. There was quite a noticible silver tinge to her coat as a puppy. Haven't heard that she has any coat or skin issues.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Mon May 06, 2013 8:29 pm

Color is a part of the characteristics of any breed and are part of what set them apart from other breeds as their own distinct breed of dog. I don't think Tamaskans would really achieve the look that we're going for, even if the structure of the dog exactly mimicked a wolf's, if the dog was black and tan with markings like a Doberman or Rottweiler. Such a color in Tamaskans would be considered faulty as it takes away from the look of the breed and its distinction from other breeds. Perhaps it doesn't affect their temperament or working ability, but it does go against what the goal of a Tamaskan is. Rare or unusual colors in any breed are usually that way for a reason. Genetics do try their best to recombine in successful and healthy ways, but it's not 100% guaranteed, and while some uncommon colors don't have any ill effects on the health or abilities of a dog, some do have health problems associated with them. In the same way that a tail that is curled too tightly can cause major spinal problems, a white coat can mean that your dog is deaf. The genes for certain physical or aesthetic traits can be linked to health problems.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Tiantai » Wed May 08, 2013 5:27 pm

GothicWolfGoddess wrote:My mother had a blue and tan Miniature Pinscher who had hair loss problems. So far her blue and tan pup has yet to have those issues, but it might show up later in life.
Goddam that's a huge problem for some breeds that originated in the central to south American continent, even though a Pinscher isn't of that origin. I do hope that such an issue like that don't turn up in the pups though.

Anyways back on topic, I recall that somewhere on the forum Rahne wrote that it's possible to bring in new black coat pups by outcrossing with a black-dominant groenendael, however, it likely will not look anywhere close to those blue wolfdogs in those photos posted above three years ago and she also mentioned that those black-colours from a groenendael will be different from the ones seen in Rann which is from a recessive loci.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Wed May 08, 2013 7:56 pm

Tiantai wrote:
Anyways back on topic, I recall that somewhere on the forum Rahne wrote that it's possible to bring in new black coat pups by outcrossing with a black-dominant groenendael, however, it likely will not look anywhere close to those blue wolfdogs in those photos posted above three years ago and she also mentioned that those black-colours from a groenendael will be different from the ones seen in Rann which is from a recessive loci.
Does that mean that it be more likely to produce solid black pups from such an outcross rather than the black gray in the standard?
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Nino » Wed May 08, 2013 8:09 pm

darazan wrote:
Tiantai wrote:
Anyways back on topic, I recall that somewhere on the forum Rahne wrote that it's possible to bring in new black coat pups by outcrossing with a black-dominant groenendael, however, it likely will not look anywhere close to those blue wolfdogs in those photos posted above three years ago and she also mentioned that those black-colours from a groenendael will be different from the ones seen in Rann which is from a recessive loci.
Does that mean that it be more likely to produce solid black pups from such an outcross rather than the black gray in the standard?
It is my (and Rahne's too I believe) theory that if you cross Dominant Black (K/-) with Agouti wild (Aw/-) then offspring of these that has both the Agouti wild and the Dominnant black (Aw/- K/-) will have that more "phased" look like eg. Winnie instead of the Solid black that they would have instead.
It has to yet to be confirmed, but I personally feel pretty convinced that this is the case - and hopefully will be able to test this myself in breeding within some years (although it would first be in the second generation that it would be possible to determine).

Recessive black (a/a) like in the Tamaskan and Agouti wild (Aw/-) however is on the same locus and thereby they cannot be "combined" in the same way. (the other would be like combining Blue (d/d) and Liver (b/b) and get Isabella (d/d b/b))
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Thu May 09, 2013 7:23 am

Interesting. Also, I was reading that wolves that are black phase actually get lighter as they get older, eventually with the black literally phasing out into gray then white. Is this something that has happened at all with black gray Tamaskans?
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by jacintha » Thu May 09, 2013 3:41 pm

Wath a amazing color but i dont like it XD

Maybe i like it if i see it in real :)

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Karen » Thu May 09, 2013 3:58 pm

Know several bleu dogs. They are beautiful, but it means more health issues a lot of the time.
Dont think you want to go there, aside from the question if it is what you want a tamaskan to look like.

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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Tiantai » Thu May 09, 2013 4:24 pm

darazan wrote:Interesting. Also, I was reading that wolves that are black phase actually get lighter as they get older, eventually with the black literally phasing out into gray then white. Is this something that has happened at all with black gray Tamaskans?
I'm not sure if you're talking about adult Tamaskans or pups. For pups, I've seen some photos of apparently dark-coloured pups that later on turned lighter as they matured in the "old Tamaskan group" on facebook, not including about those recent Winnie pups btw. I'd call that a "type of black phase" but not necessarily the same type as those found in the pure Grey wolves of the west. I also noticed in some of Katlin's photos (hello Katlin :D ) of Wylie looking lighter in the recent pictures than in some of the earlier photos of him in the winter time although I could just be wrong about that as I have yet to meet Katlin and her dog who live all the way in the western Canada in person so my opinion is based on those pictures alone.

As for the adult Tamaskan, I have yet to see Rann lose his black-grey coloured coat. It should be noted, however, that there are still domestic dogs who do go through that black phase and some who have mixed it with those who are naturally black throughout their entire life thus causing some to lose "part" of their black hair at a certain age. I've seen that in some Chow and Weimaraners who appeared "black" at some point and then turned to their usual coat colours later at the last few years of their lives, one case of the former having all black and then later on lost "some" of it but not all as the remaining black was its natural colour and the black that disappeared was the phase-black. The black-phase also exists in some Eastern coyotes here in Ontario as well due in part to the small percentage of Grey wolves (~15%) in their genes which explains why there are those in North York and East York who claim to have spotted "a black coyote near the Don Valley Parkway" where they often hang around.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Sat May 11, 2013 12:58 am

I was talking about adults more than pups. I've read that in wolves the black-phase will go from gray to white as they age, getting lighter with each shedding season, so they wouldn't start getting recognizably gray until they're already full grown and white would be after that. From what I was reading it seemed like it was almost like the wolf would gradually become lighter with each new coat coming in. Although all wolf pups are born dark and lighten up to their adult coat, it sounded like black-phase continue lightening as they get older until they're pretty much white. In this pamphlet about phenotyping wolves, wolfdogs, and dogs, it talks about the black-phase wolf and includes pictures.

http://www.floridalupine.org/publicatio ... t_2011.pdf
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by firleymj » Sat May 11, 2013 12:27 pm

It's amazing what only three genes can do!

All the variation in coat color and pattern, length, and curl is controlled by only three genes. As profiling of specific animals gets more and more affordable, I can see the day when much more targeted selective breeding can be far more focused to produce both desired traits and better health for our packs.

Ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897713/

P.S. This kind of compact coding of results really makes me want to do some statistical analysis of the "wolf content" tests - the distribution of results might well not prove as reliable as people think - we think of DNA testing as the "ultimate" crime-fighting fingerprint, but the science is a lot more coarse than in popular imagination.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Sat May 11, 2013 6:38 pm

firleymj wrote:It's amazing what only three genes can do!

All the variation in coat color and pattern, length, and curl is controlled by only three genes. As profiling of specific animals gets more and more affordable, I can see the day when much more targeted selective breeding can be far more focused to produce both desired traits and better health for our packs.

Ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897713/

P.S. This kind of compact coding of results really makes me want to do some statistical analysis of the "wolf content" tests - the distribution of results might well not prove as reliable as people think - we think of DNA testing as the "ultimate" crime-fighting fingerprint, but the science is a lot more coarse than in popular imagination.

That makes me wonder if the wolf content tests from UC Davis test mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA for markers, or if it's just one or the other. Having both would give better and more accurate results, and it would allow breeders and the group as a whole to better track which dogs have wolf content and where it came from. For example: Mitochondrial DNA is only from the mother's side, so if wolf content were found in it then it's very easy to determine where it came from, as it would have to be from the mother.
-Crystal

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Nino
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by Nino » Sun May 12, 2013 3:24 pm

darazan wrote:Interesting. Also, I was reading that wolves that are black phase actually get lighter as they get older, eventually with the black literally phasing out into gray then white. Is this something that has happened at all with black gray Tamaskans?
It is not something that is really happening in the Tamaskan, besides the difference from being born a black pup and the undercoat changing color when the dog becomes an adult.

The Greying in Black Phased wolves is possibly the same as in the progressive greying in breeds like Puli, Kerry Blue Terrier and Poodle (along with some other of these types of dogs).
I personally think that the closest "we" can get in the Tamaskan without either breeding in either wolves/wolfdogs with these genes (which I personally think would be a major mistake due to them being wolfdogs and not wishing for the Tamaskan to be one) or one of these breeds with progressive greying in them - which btw. should be a dominant trait, will be the breeding of Dominant Black + Agouti Wild.
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Re: Dilute Colors

Post by darazan » Sun May 12, 2013 9:17 pm

Interesting. I don't think it's a trait we would need to specifically be in Tamaskans, but I was just wondering if this had occurred within Tamaskans or not.
-Crystal

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