Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

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Hawthorne
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Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Hawthorne » Mon May 21, 2012 1:48 am

Edit: I understand why you started a new subject with this post--I was just trying to redirect folks angry feelings into something more positive. Perhaps exploring why certain pups are the way they are. Thanks.

I have to agree with one of the above statements. Raven also is fine with new dogs. We took her to the pet store yesterday and she met a new dog who was twice her size. She began play-bowing right away. However, some dogs make her nervous while on our walks. If we pass a dog who is behind a fence and frantically barking, her hackles sometimes go up. I've noticed it's if the other dog is barking aggressively, rather than in an insecure way. Raven's a puppy--just over 4 months old. She needs guidance to understand the world around her. I wouldn't expect her to know how to handle most situations. Teaching her to look to us for what to do is the first step. I act as calm as I can around those fence-fighting dogs. For her. We are building her confidence by taking her to dog school. She graduates from kindergarden on Tuesday, and will move up to Manners class.
She has had 100% positive experiences so far--which is not what happened to Freyja. Freyja was attacked while on leash as a pup. Several times. It took ME a while to get over seeing stray dogs while walking my dogs on a leash. And your dogs know you're nervous.
Anyhow, what I'm getting at is that Raven is very sweet. She may approach new things with caution, but that's what some puppies do. We don't force her to experience new things, but let her explore them on her terms. For example, I made three very young children crouch down to say hello to her because when they approached Raven, she immediately tried to back out of her collar. Children are over the top, and I wouldn't expect her to be okay with three little squealing girls approaching her at such an early stage. After a pause, Raven came up for pets and to say hello.
Darwin is probably the opposite of fear aggressive. He's an attention whore. And that's another matter entirely :D
Every dog is different. And while they may need slightly different handling, providing positive experiences and loads of (stinky) treats will help them grow to be confident, well rounded dogs. I wish the best for every Tam pup out there. Let's keep the conversation going and exchange ideas so we can help each other raise the best dogs we can.

P.S. Based on the video I just see some scared dogs in the current situation. I don't think it proves anything.

P.S.S. I didn't think that Freyja was a very "easy" puppy. She wanted to learn but I thought, at first, had issues. I'll be honest that the dogs I have raised before were lab mixes and poodle mixes, etc. We even had our dog trainer say that Freyja was "intense." We can all guess what that means. She, to me, was an alpha dog. She's amazing to watch now as an adult. And I clearly had my own issues to deal with, cast aside, and as a result come to know her for what she is: a fantastic dog with a sense of humor but yet is very sure of herself. Freyja was a superb mother with this past litter and produced some fantastic pups. Now that we've had Freyja, Darwin and now Raven I feel like I know the breed a lot better. I'm hoping that for each of you that you're experiencing "Freyja pups" -- puppies that are behaving just like Freyja did when she was a puppy--but turn out just fine.
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bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by juice » Mon May 21, 2012 9:30 am

i think that we as owners of other breeds of dog are comparing our tamaskan to them to much. i have never owned any arctic breed before but have encountered some, all of them have been very aloof and not that interested in being fussed. when we first got lexi (blustag nebraska) i thought that we were never going to get a bond with her as she was more interested in our other dogs than she was of us, i was mistaken as we and her have a great bond now she is a year old. we have had issues with her, 1 seperation anxiety she has to be sedated when we go out (which we hate doing but have to because she injures herself), 2 biting/mouthing she has been a terror for this but we have persevered and she very rarely does it anymore ( we just used to say no and ignore her untill she stopped) it took longer than with our other dogs, lexi was around 7 months, 3 she is not that great with strangers but this is our fault bad socialisation but we will continue to work with her. ok she may not be perfect but she is what we have made her and with a little of her arctic breed background she is what she is. her father skye wasn't very forthcoming when we went to pick lexi up but that never worried us as we were strangers to him, her mum nevada was completely different jumping up trying to give kisses. i do beleive there should be a change to how tamaskan are portrayed in that there should be more about how independent these dogs are and that they get better as they mature and also i dont think first time dog owners should be thinking about tamaskan as they are a lot of hard work, we have found it hard and i have had dogs for 25 years. i think there is some explaining needs to be done on the golden litter but if lynn doesn't want to do this then what can you do other than try and sort any issues with these dogs for yourselves and make them the best of the breed. i am intending on breeding with lexi but i am also thinking about getting a tamaskan from alba ( go on i am ready for the bitching and telling me she is a bad person :lol: ) as lynns lines are very closely related. for now i hope everyone will come to some sort of middle line where we can all have our own opinions and do our own thing without being stamped on from the big bosses ;) :) .
sorry about the long post just wanted to put my bit in for what its worth :lol:

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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by skyedream » Mon May 21, 2012 12:30 pm

juice wrote:1 seperation anxiety she has to be sedated when we go out (which we hate doing but have to because she injures herself)
Seriously?! I wouldn't consider breeding from a dog with separation anxiety this bad. No offence, I'm sure you've thought long and hard about it.
juice wrote:i am intending on breeding with lexi but i am also thinking about getting a tamaskan from alba ( go on i am ready for the bitching and telling me she is a bad person :lol: ) as lynns lines are very closely related.
This is something I have also considered for the same reason but also because I love the look of the dark red Alba dogs and I feel that it would be very beneficial to the tamaskan breed to have more of them in breeding homes.
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by JulieSmith » Mon May 21, 2012 12:51 pm

I have been having a think about the dog aggression problem and wonder if some of the problem is because they are on the lead when greeting? I read somewhere that if a dog is pulling on its lead to say Hi then its body is in a more aggressive position, even if it is not being aggressive, if your dog is already nervous then it will read the dogs body signal as being not friendly. Being on a lead can make a dog feel more vulnerable as they have no means of escape especially if the owner is nervous and has the lead tight, again transmitting negative signals to the dog. Is it possible to find neutral places with trusted dogs to let them off the lead and just work things out themselves?

I am very lucky where I walk Saga there is lots of open space and lots of nice dogs, so as soon as she was 13 weeks old, while she was still scared of the big outdoors, I let her off the lead when walking, to start with I had a long training lead attached to a harness so I could grab it easily if she was not coming back, but she still had freedom to play chase. I used to find people walking with nice dogs so that she could get used to them and play, some of those she made friends with are now her favourite dogs to play with now. Some dogs did scare her, but she is very submissive so just rolled on her back (she still does), it was only when she got a bit older that a couple of dogs decided to tell her that they were boss, but even that was only quick snaps and nothing serious, she just avoids those dogs now or treats them with lots of respect. Saga is a year and a half old now and is very sociable and friendly, but even so when meeting new dogs or a large pack of dogs she does put her hackles up as she is nervous, but then I see that in many dogs when they are meeting for the first time so I do not think that is just a Tam thing. If there is a group of dogs playing and she is not quite sure of herself the hackles will go up a bit and she will hang back until she is confident that all is OK. If she does have her hackles up I just keep an eye on her to make sure that she is not being bullied and that all dogs are playing nicely and move away if I think they are too much for her or just leave her to work it out herself if they are fine. As I say I am lucky that I have lots of open space to walk my dogs, if all I had was a crowded overpowering dog park to go to it may have been different.

If Saga is on the lead it is usually in places dogs can not play so I do not encourage saying hello to other dogs, on the lead I want her to walk nicely on a loose lead and not pull me to every dog she sees.

Sorry this post was long, not sure if will help with your puppies, its just what has worked for me. Good luck I am sure you will end up with wonderful dogs.

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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by JulieSmith » Mon May 21, 2012 12:59 pm

skyedream wrote:
juice wrote:i am intending on breeding with lexi but i am also thinking about getting a tamaskan from alba ( go on i am ready for the bitching and telling me she is a bad person :lol: ) as lynns lines are very closely related.
This is something I have also considered for the same reason but also because I love the look of the dark red Alba dogs and I feel that it would be very beneficial to the tamaskan breed to have more of them in breeding homes.
The only thing I know about Alba is what is written on here, so can not judge if she is a bad person or not as obviously on here only one side is printed. Since there have been negative things written about the conditions she keeps her dogs in then I would suggest visiting her to make sure you are happy with how she keeps the dogs and their temperaments. If you like what you see then it is up to you where you get your next dog from, if you do not like what you see then as lovely as the dogs are walk away and look else where. do not encourage bad practice.

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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by Hawthorne » Mon May 21, 2012 1:18 pm

juice wrote:i think that we as owners of other breeds of dog are comparing our tamaskan to them to much. ... i dont think first time dog owners should be thinking about tamaskan as they are a lot of hard work,
I agree. This is what I was trying to explain with too many words. :lol: Much more concise.
JulieSmith wrote:I have been having a think about the dog aggression problem and wonder if some of the problem is because they are on the lead when greeting? I read somewhere that if a dog is pulling on its lead to say Hi then its body is in a more aggressive position, even if it is not being aggressive
Very good point, Julie. When Raven greeted the new dog at the pet store, the instant I let the leash go slack was when she did her play bow and then the other dog began to engage her with body language. In puppy class, our instructor has us let go of the leads, and breaks up any rough play by throwing a handful of kibble on the floor. Works wonders.
skyedream wrote: I love the look of the dark red Alba dogs and I feel that it would be very beneficial to the tamaskan breed to have more of them in breeding homes.
We were lucky that Blaze's appearance came out in Raven. She is a very dark red grey and it seems she will also have yellow eyes. So far, she is such a charmer--she snuggles on the couch and enjoys doggie school. She's a little cautious, but she's young. I do love the red greys too, but we chose her for her temperament, despite her DM results. She was such a love from day one.
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http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by Eventide » Mon May 21, 2012 9:52 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I have to agree with one of the above statements. Raven also is fine with new dogs. We took her to the pet store yesterday and she met a new dog who was twice her size. She began play-bowing right away. However, some dogs make her nervous while on our walks. If we pass a dog who is behind a fence and frantically barking, her hackles sometimes go up. I've noticed it's if the other dog is barking aggressively, rather than in an insecure way. Raven's a puppy--just over 4 months old. She needs guidance to understand the world around her. I wouldn't expect her to know how to handle most situations. Teaching her to look to us for what to do is the first step. I act as calm as I can around those fence-fighting dogs. For her. We are building her confidence by taking her to dog school. She graduates from kindergarden on Tuesday, and will move up to Manners class.
She has had 100% positive experiences so far--which is not what happened to Freyja. Freyja was attacked while on leash as a pup. Several times. It took ME a while to get over seeing stray dogs while walking my dogs on a leash. And your dogs know you're nervous.
Anyhow, what I'm getting at is that Raven is very sweet. She may approach new things with caution, but that's what some puppies do. We don't force her to experience new things, but let her explore them on her terms. For example, I made three very young children crouch down to say hello to her because when they approached Raven, she immediately tried to back out of her collar. Children are over the top, and I wouldn't expect her to be okay with three little squealing girls approaching her at such an early stage. After a pause, Raven came up for pets and to say hello.
Darwin is probably the opposite of fear aggressive. He's an attention whore. And that's another matter entirely :D
Every dog is different. And while they may need slightly different handling, providing positive experiences and loads of (stinky) treats will help them grow to be confident, well rounded dogs. I wish the best for every Tam pup out there. Let's keep the conversation going and exchange ideas so we can help each other raise the best dogs we can.

P.S. Based on the video I just see some scared dogs in the current situation. I don't think it proves anything.

P.S.S. I didn't think that Freyja was a very "easy" puppy. She wanted to learn but I thought, at first, had issues. I'll be honest that the dogs I have raised before were lab mixes and poodle mixes, etc. We even had our dog trainer say that Freyja was "intense." We can all guess what that means. She, to me, was an alpha dog. She's amazing to watch now as an adult. And I clearly had my own issues to deal with, cast aside, and as a result come to know her for what she is: a fantastic dog with a sense of humor but yet is very sure of herself. Freyja was a superb mother with this past litter and produced some fantastic pups. Now that we've had Freyja, Darwin and now Raven I feel like I know the breed a lot better. I'm hoping that for each of you that you're experiencing "Freyja pups" -- puppies that are behaving just like Freyja did when she was a puppy--but turn out just fine.


I also have a "Frejya" pup and my first Tamaskan. I guess I have trully been blessed with my Max. He is the most laid back, friendly, dog I've ever seen. I've had so many comments from total strangers who can't believe how well-behaved, friendly, and smart he is.

He just loves everything and everybody (well, except car rides-gets sick). He loves children and adults, but is especially gentle with infants - yes - infants. Took him to my grandson's baseball game and there was a 6 month old on a blanket. When we walked by, she squealed and the mom asked if she could "pet" him as she has a dog at home. I was a nervous wreck, but said okay. He just sat there and let her "pat" him with both little hands going, and all he did was decide he would lay down and let her continue. He did very gently lick her hand once or twice.

He has been around so many dogs, kids, and adults, and has been consistently friendly. He has no problems with men (as some of my family's other dogs do). He only plays aggressively with other dogs that play that way. He also just finished Puppy Kindergarten and starts Basdic Manners Tuesday. The trainer also is so pleased to see how calm he is and uses him alot when she wants to show the class what they need to do during an exercise. He hasn't shown any interest in eating shoes, clothing, or anything but his snacks and bones, and playing with his squeaky toys.

One day while he was eating a bone and one of our family dogs tried to take it, he snarled and really growled. This worried me so I went over to take the bone out of his mouth. He just sat there and looked at me as if he didn't understand why I did that. Later that day I did what some would say was foolish. I took a small bite of steak and put it between my teeth and bent over to him to see how he would take it from me. He was so careful and gentle, he almost missed it.

As I said, I have been so blessed and IMHO my breeder-Tracy and Ben, Max's Mom - Freyja, and his 8 siblings, along with his Dad, Dylan, and his family have all played an important part in his wonderful temperament and handsome looks.

I believe in the breed and all the TDR breeders, and especially the NTCA breeders, of this wonderful dog and hope to someday be able to breed Max so that he can share his temperament and looks with others.
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by nivenj » Mon May 21, 2012 9:59 pm

Dottie wrote:
I also have a "Frejya" pup and my first Tamaskan. I guess I have trully been blessed with my Max. He is the most laid back, friendly, dog I've ever seen. I've had so many comments from total strangers who can't believe how well-behaved, friendly, and smart he is.

He just loves everything and everybody (well, except car rides-gets sick). He loves children and adults, but is especially gentle with infants - yes - infants. Took him to my grandson's baseball game and there was a 6 month old on a blanket. When we walked by, she squealed and the mom asked if she could "pet" him as she has a dog at home. I was a nervous wreck, but said okay. He just sat there and let her "pat" him with both little hands going, and all he did was decide he would lay down and let her continue. He did very gently lick her hand once or twice.

He has been around so many dogs, kids, and adults, and has been consistently friendly. He has no problems with men (as some of my family's other dogs do). He only plays aggressively with other dogs that play that way. He also just finished Puppy Kindergarten and starts Basdic Manners Tuesday. The trainer also is so pleased to see how calm he is and uses him alot when she wants to show the class what they need to do during an exercise. He hasn't shown any interest in eating shoes, clothing, or anything but his snacks and bones, and playing with his squeaky toys.

One day while he was eating a bone and one of our family dogs tried to take it, he snarled and really growled. This worried me so I went over to take the bone out of his mouth. He just sat there and looked at me as if he didn't understand why I did that. Later that day I did what some would say was foolish. I took a small bite of steak and put it between my teeth and bent over to him to see how he would take it from me. He was so careful and gentle, he almost missed it.

As I said, I have been so blessed and IMHO my breeder-Tracy and Ben, Max's Mom - Freyja, and his 8 siblings, along with his Dad, Dylan, and his family have all played an important part in his wonderful temperament and handsome looks.

I believe in the breed and all the TDR breeders, and especially the NTCA breeders, of this wonderful dog and hope to someday be able to breed Max so that he can share his temperament and looks with others.
Such a wonderful post. :)
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by Sylvaen » Mon May 21, 2012 10:08 pm

Good post Dottie - I don't think anyone is doubting the temperament of the breed overall, just that SOME bloodlines are more 'difficult' and that particular litters seem to have more issues than others. The Saxon pups are all great and I'm sure that the Quicksilver pups will also be excellent family dogs for households with small children - that being said, I do think that SOME matings / bloodlines do produce pups that require more experienced owners. To use my dogs as an example: Vixen could be an easy dog for any family, including first-time owners; Jasper was much more 'difficult' as a puppy and a lot of hard work so I don't think that ALL owners would be able to cope as easily. Zora is a lot like Jasper, whereas I am expecting (hoping) that Pandora will be a lot more like Vixen.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Hawthorne » Tue May 22, 2012 1:12 am

Thank you, Dottie. Those are wonderful compliments. We gave it our all and still see plenty of room for improvement.
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bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Eventide » Tue May 22, 2012 2:04 am

Thanks to all for your kind responses, and . . . Tracy, just tellin' it the way it is -- for me ;) . As I said, I have been blessed with this wonderful boy -- and loving every minute with my Max. Thank you Tracy :!:
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by Hawthorne » Tue May 22, 2012 2:22 am

skyedream wrote:
juice wrote:1 seperation anxiety she has to be sedated when we go out (which we hate doing but have to because she injures herself)
Seriously?! I wouldn't consider breeding from a dog with separation anxiety this bad. No offence, I'm sure you've thought long and hard about it
Do you think that separation anxiety is an inherited trait? Darwin was delt a crappy hand as a pup and has come around quite a bit. I think separation anxiety is mostly due to the dogs environment. If you know of information that discusses otherwise I'd love to hear about it. Thanks.
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by juice » Tue May 22, 2012 7:37 am

i personally dont think s/a is inherited and agree with hawthorne that it is the dogs enviroment. however people have said that tamaskan are better with another dog in the house, we have 2 others and lexi so i disagree with that. what we did do for the first time with lexi was use a crate which i think has made the problem worse as she couldnt cuddle up with the other dogs bassically taking her away from the pack and then we would leave to go out which didnt help. also as we all know they love their pack and dont want be parted from them which is just part of the breed trait unfortunately, this i think can escalate into s/a. when we get another tam we wont be using the crate when we go out but will still use it at night until potty trained. i know lexi needs sedation at the moment but this is being reduced steadily and she will eventualy grow out of needing it, this is all being managed with our vet.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by skyedream » Tue May 22, 2012 9:21 am

I'll admit I haven't looked into the factors that are thought to cause separation anxiety in great detail but I believe it's true that some breeds are known to suffer more from separation anxiety than others. This would suggest a genetic element to me. I'm just saying that in my opinion having to sedate a dog in order to leave the house seems to be the extreme end of separation anxiety and I would not want to risk passing this trait on to future generations. I also would not want to put a dog that is prone to getting stressed out through pregnancy and motherhood but I am by no means an expert and feel free to ignore me! I'm sure Lexi is a wonderful dog with many great traits to pass down to her offspring.

I'm also not sure about using a crate for my future tam as it looks like the best crate for this breed are expensive escape-proof crates from the US. I certainly would not want to get a wire crate again after the experience I had with my last one! I was kind of hoping that my current dog would be enough company for my next dog and that with extensive dog proofing I could reduce the damage to my property? But maybe not... If I do get a crate again I will work much harder on the training, I feel that I tried to rush it last time.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 22, 2012 10:59 am

I have found these, i'll admit to not reading them. Full web pages take an age to load on my mobile and drain the battery like no tomorrow...

http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2011/11/2 ... the-genes/

http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/

http://www.2ndchance.info/sepanxiety.htm

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/separation ... page1.aspx

Maybe if it is genetic, this need to be a deciding factor in breeding dogs and pairings...

I'm looking for work that will fit round my kids going to school/ leaving school and holidays... If that's not hard enough alone, it's making it even harder to find one that fits round Sam's SA as well so between me and my partner he is not on his own for no longer than an hour. I also think my new neighbors are getting annoyed with the noise too and so far he's only left for up to an hour. I maybe looking for a new house sooner than i thought :oops: :( . I have tried every single training technique that 5 different trainers have tried with me and nting works... not even a bit...

So if it's possible to minimize the SA even just a little bit, it's worth looking into...
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Re: Golden Litter Discussion

Post by Gaby » Tue May 22, 2012 11:54 am

Hawthorne wrote:
skyedream wrote:
juice wrote:1 seperation anxiety she has to be sedated when we go out (which we hate doing but have to because she injures herself)
Seriously?! I wouldn't consider breeding from a dog with separation anxiety this bad. No offence, I'm sure you've thought long and hard about it
Do you think that separation anxiety is an inherited trait? Darwin was delt a crappy hand as a pup and has come around quite a bit. I think separation anxiety is mostly due to the dogs environment. If you know of information that discusses otherwise I'd love to hear about it. Thanks.
Yes, I do think it is inherited trait, that's why it is very common in arctic breeds, more than retrievers or mountaindogs for example. That proofs that something genetic plays a role. Mila suffered from it a lot. Even though we kept her with another dog and we took very much time to learn her to be alone. And our other dog came with us with severe separation anxiety so I knew how to teach a puppy to be alone. She is a year old now and it is going very well now. Sometimes she chews things up in the house, but I don't think that is anxiety alone, because she does it too when we are around. We have a fence in the middle of our house, so she can't reach the couch etc. which she will chew up if she had the chance, I think. In the part of the room where she stays with our other dog when we are gone, there are always old clothes and bones she can chew on. If I don't do that, she will chew up the dogbed.

I believe there where quite a few Tams with seperation anxiety.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Sylvaen » Tue May 22, 2012 12:10 pm

Jasper had quite bad separation anxiety as a pup, which lasted throughout puberty. It was only once he reached 18 months old (or so) that I could finally start leaving him home alone for several hours without worrying about him howling up a storm. Of course, I left him home alone on regular occasions before that (starting around 6 months old) but I would always return home to complaints from the neighbors (about the noise). We had to sloooowly build up the amount of time that he could be left alone over a period many months. Now I can leave him at home for 6-8 hours (if necessary) though I prefer not to leave him that long if it can be helped. Vixen is totally fine to be left alone BUT once Jasper starts howling, she instinctively joins in (even if she doesn't know WHY she is howling and has no desire to do so of her own motivation - once he starts up, her vocal chords just kick in and then they sound like a real pack of wolves together).

The longest period I've left Zora home alone (with Jasper and Vixen for company) is 3 hours without any issues - I don't think she will be so badly affected though; it's always much harder when you have one young dog home alone without other dogs for company. The only problem is that when I take them on holiday or to somewhere new / strange and THEN I leave Jasper alone (with the other dogs) - that's when he freaks out a bit... he doesn't like being 'abandoned' in strange places, far away from home. I noticed this every time I go to Tamaskan shows in Germany - it seems he has to be BY my side at all times or he gets very stressed. I couldn't leave him at a hotel or anything like that, he'd go ballistic. Then again, if he is familiar with the car we travel in, perhaps he would be comfortable to be left there (for short periods) if it's not too hot - just while I run to the bathroom or to stock up on snacks, etc. Better than tying him up outside and having him make an embarrassing scene trying to break free to get to me. :lol: He seems better if someone else (who he knows) stays with him though. I guess he just has a deep-seated fear of abandonment in a foreign country. poor chap.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 22, 2012 12:23 pm

Sylvaen wrote:Jasper had quite bad separation anxiety as a pup, which lasted throughout puberty. It was only once he reached 18 months old (or so) that I could finally start leaving him home alone for several hours without worrying about him howling up a storm.
Good to know i have hope yet.... Just hope my neighbors last another 6/7 month, Not looking likely tho :( ... Even when i go out and my partner is home, he will pace, look out the window every 5 mins or less (i think this led to a compulsive, looking-out-the-window disorder), puff/pant, go from room to room, cry... At least I know he loves his human :D
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Post by Rahne » Tue May 22, 2012 2:16 pm

Gaby wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: Do you think that separation anxiety is an inherited trait? Darwin was delt a crappy hand as a pup and has come around quite a bit. I think separation anxiety is mostly due to the dogs environment. If you know of information that discusses otherwise I'd love to hear about it. Thanks.
Yes, I do think it is inherited trait, that's why it is very common in arctic breeds, more than retrievers or mountaindogs for example. That proofs that something genetic plays a role.
I agree with Gaby. I don't think it is mostly 'due to the dogs environment' although it might play a part. Konah also had separation anxiety and now she is all grown up I can leave her for a few hours BUT only with the other dogs as company (otherwise she starts panicking right away). She has panicked several times while I left her, she would howl then but also try to break out of the house by digging holes in the wall, very sad because she did hurt herself (breaking all her nails) :(

I have 'trained' her in the same way as my other dogs, in the same environment and my other dogs have had no issues staying alone ever. My staffy could already stay alone as a 10 week old pup for several hours, she would just sleep. The other dog we owned was the same, I could leave them for a whole day and no howling, barking or chewing things up.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Lynwae » Tue May 22, 2012 2:29 pm

All the tamaskan don't have separation anxiety. My pup stays home alone when I'lm at work (3h on morning, and 4 the afternoon) and she behaves very well. She just sleep and eat her toys (and something she steal my stuff to bring them in her couch, but nevermind... That's a baby).
I left her in the living room with no crate and the two cats free to come and go if they want. And everything is just fine (thanks gods!)
I don't know how are her parents... Maybe jennie could answer that.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:53 pm

Ulric is very easy. If he is left out of the crate while I am gone, he will get into a few things, but it is only out of boredom. He has no problem being in the crate, well he is not fond of it but is a good boy about it, does not freak out and try to escape.
Our other dog on the other hand, she does have separation anxiety from my husband, couldn't care less about me. The moment he is out the door she whines, if she has access to the bedroom while he is gone, she sneak in there and will pee on our bed. If I come home, she will come greet me, sit down, lick and then be off, if it is my husband, she whines the moment she hears his car pull up, starts barking, and once he is through the door, she is jumping up all over him, all feet off the ground. If she is put into a crate, she will shake, whine, bark all constantly, and try to escape.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by nivenj » Tue May 22, 2012 3:17 pm

So is there a difference between Sep Anxiety and just plain boredom? Ayden went to Doggy Day Care yesterday and the only SA I think was mine, he had a great time and from what I gather didnt show any signs. He was so tired when he came home he gave me a half hearted wag of his tail a quick lick then went to his cushion and promptly fell asleep. I've left him alone in my bedroom for an hour to see if he whines/barks but never heard a peep and he didnt destroy or rip anything apart.

He does get very excited though in the morning when I come downstairs, and he wags his behind, not just his tail and sort of does this half growl/whine thing that he does. I'm sure it sounds like "Hello" :-)
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by JulieSmith » Tue May 22, 2012 4:00 pm

nivenj wrote:So is there a difference between Sep Anxiety and just plain boredom? Ayden went to Doggy Day Care yesterday and the only SA I think was mine, he had a great time and from what I gather didnt show any signs. He was so tired when he came home he gave me a half hearted wag of his tail a quick lick then went to his cushion and promptly fell asleep. I've left him alone in my bedroom for an hour to see if he whines/barks but never heard a peep and he didnt destroy or rip anything apart.

He does get very excited though in the morning when I come downstairs, and he wags his behind, not just his tail and sort of does this half growl/whine thing that he does. I'm sure it sounds like "Hello" :-)
I think there is, unless Saga is tired when left she will wonder round the house looking for things to chew, she will howl as well so i try not to leave her unless she has had a very good walk and then not for too long. Glad Ayden likes doggy day care Saga loves hers, she does not even look back at me as she goes in :lol: and she is always shattered when she gets back.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Lynwae » Tue May 22, 2012 4:31 pm

nivenj wrote:He does get very excited though in the morning when I come downstairs, and he wags his behind, not just his tail and sort of does this half growl/whine thing that he does. I'm sure it sounds like "Hello" :-)
Ayla does that too :D
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Nino » Tue May 22, 2012 5:38 pm

I definitely think there is a difference between plain boredom and separation anxiety.
While some dogs are fine with being alone, but gets bored during the day and therefore will often get into mischief.
Dogs that has anxiety would more likely have a problem finding rest, and would pace back and forward if they can, a number will not eat while alone, some may/will have accidents, not because they cannot keep it in like normal but because their stress forces them to (all of these is represented in my own Tamaskan though none is very bad), some will destroy - dig, bite or try to put their frustration/stress into other acts that will destroy things (I found my own would dig when younger in the crate - but it was never bad enough to cause any harm), yet others will howl and bark some for a short time others for hours and hours..
All of the above would be acts of stress, because of being "left by their pack/alfa".

I am also convinced that there is definitely a inherent factor when talking about Separation anxiety Which is why some breeds have much less numbers of dogs with the problems while others is almost all, this would make no sense if it had nothing to do with genes (at least to me)
BUT I also think that if you do it 100% correctly the dog can be taught to be alone, but what is the right way to go about it I think is different from dog to dog..
Also inheritance is a factor in how easily they are taught to feel good about the home alone time.

Lynwae - have you ever had a camera on your pup when home alone?
I haven't on Sølve, but I do have no doubt that she is stressed about the situation - I might not have been thinking about it if she didn't have accidents regularly when alone. Or the fact that I can leave even tasty treats on the floor which she likes and come back home finding she has not touched them.

It's funny though, to own a dog that is independent like her, but who hates to be left alone..
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Lynwae » Tue May 22, 2012 5:48 pm

Not a camera :)

But I began with only changing of floor (I have a 3 floors appartment) and letf her alone in the livingroom. She wines one or two minutes, then calm down.
I wait some more minutes, and come back, praise her etc.

And, step after step I bring this time longer.

My roomate is working on the floor below my living room where Ayla is keeping when we're not at home and he never heard something like howling, or barking. She really juste sleep and play with her toys.
I'm very lucky with that.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Nino » Tue May 22, 2012 5:51 pm

Sølve doesn't bark or howl either.. I really cannot remember she ever did that when being left (I used a month of training to train her to be alone, never leaving the house only leaving her so she couldn't see me (or hear me since I put on music and was only reading in the next room)..
Just saying ;-)
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by nivenj » Tue May 22, 2012 6:01 pm

Nino wrote: Or the fact that I can leave even tasty treats on the floor which she likes and come back home finding she has not touched them.
I was reading something the other day that suggested a true pack animal will adhere to the pack rules wether the Alpha is there or not. Maybe because your not "giving" the treats to her she doesnt think she has the right to take them? Just an idea?
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Nino » Tue May 22, 2012 6:04 pm

nivenj wrote:
Nino wrote: Or the fact that I can leave even tasty treats on the floor which she likes and come back home finding she has not touched them.
I was reading something the other day that suggested a true pack animal will adhere to the pack rules wether the Alpha is there or not. Maybe because your not "giving" the treats to her she doesnt think she has the right to take them? Just an idea?
Nope she have gotten her food thrown on the ground/floor outside or inside for months and then me going inside (or maybe leaving the room) = leaving her.. it's only when I leave the house she won't eat what is left for her (that I throw before I go).

Btw. she eats them within the first 10 minutes of me being home without me asking her to do so (I just ignore them)
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by AZDehlin » Tue May 22, 2012 6:23 pm

Zephyr doesn't get bored but he does suffer from separation anxiety. He won't eat any food or treats that I leave with him in the crate and we will wet his crate. He broke the first wire crate I bought for him and ended up cutting up his face while getting out of it. Now I have a really strong steel one and he cant hurt him self or escape. I have left a video on him when I have been gone and watched it from my phone... He will scream and howl and pace shaking his whole crate for about a half hour and then he lays down panting for about 15 minutes and he will get up and continue to pace and by this time he will let his whole bladder go, Rinse and repeat until I get home

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by nivenj » Tue May 22, 2012 6:27 pm

AZDehlin wrote:Zephyr doesn't get bored but he does suffer from separation anxiety. He won't eat any food or treats that I leave with him in the crate and we will wet his crate. He broke the first wire crate I bought for him and ended up cutting up his face while getting out of it. Now I have a really strong steel one and he cant hurt him self or escape. I have left a video on him when I have been gone and watched it from my phone... He will scream and howl and pace shaking his whole crate for about a half hour and then he lays down panting for about 15 minutes and he will get up and continue to pace and by this time he will let his whole bladder go, Rinse and repeat until I get home
:cry: Poor boy.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by AZDehlin » Tue May 22, 2012 6:30 pm

nivenj wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:Zephyr doesn't get bored but he does suffer from separation anxiety. He won't eat any food or treats that I leave with him in the crate and we will wet his crate. He broke the first wire crate I bought for him and ended up cutting up his face while getting out of it. Now I have a really strong steel one and he cant hurt him self or escape. I have left a video on him when I have been gone and watched it from my phone... He will scream and howl and pace shaking his whole crate for about a half hour and then he lays down panting for about 15 minutes and he will get up and continue to pace and by this time he will let his whole bladder go, Rinse and repeat until I get home
:cry: Poor boy.
I try with all my power to not have to leave him alone more than once a week.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Eventide » Tue May 22, 2012 6:41 pm

After reading all the above, I have a couple questions.

Background: My pup is 4 months old and I have not noticed any particular s/a with him, other than he does not like to go into the crate in the family room when I call him to it because he knows that means I'm leaving. I hear him bark for a couple minutes then he stops. I do leave the TV on and I also have two cats that have free-reign of the house. When I come home, he is usually sleeping in the crate (never in the crate longer than 3-4 hours at a time). He did wet and poo in his crate when I first started using it in the kitchen area, then I was told I should move it to the area we are in most with him (family room) and to make his crate smaller (I have a divider so I just shorten the space and he has not had any accidents since then).

Does this mean he probably will never have s/a worse than it is now? If puppy behavior is genetic, even a little bit, then I'm very lucky indeed. He has such excellent behavior for a pup his age (we do still have issues with the potty training though :roll: ;).

I have also read on this forum, and FB, that some pups (male and female) may develop the "hormonal teen-age girl" -type bad behavior sometime between 6-months and 1 1/2 years -- just because. If this only happens with some and not all would this then be based on genetics or environment? (I have raised three teenage girls and not looking foward to this :| with my Max).
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Lynwae » Tue May 22, 2012 6:58 pm

Ayla has accidents when I'm out of the home... But she does have accidents when I'm here too.... :D
House training is not fulfilled at all :lol:

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Nino » Tue May 22, 2012 7:06 pm

took me a year to house train Sølve -.-
probably both for my own reason and because it was hard for her.. but hey they are all different there..

Sølve have actually never had bad behaviour.. she did "jump" the tables to snatch food some times, but I think that's about it..
She's been a very nice dog at home - only training her (rather motivating her cause she is easy to train when you have her attention) and shy around strangers - and I have had to work on her self-esteem - but that's not too bad, some might not have been able to do it though, since it requires that I am very in tuned with her and have been a lot of work.
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by juice » Tue May 22, 2012 7:11 pm

lexi was fine for about 5/6 months and then she started with the s/a which just got worse and worse. she had escaped our first crate (cheap ) we then got a stronger one and she escaped from that. when she was out of the crate she was fine so we left her out for 3 weeks only to come home to the carpet completely destroyed, back to the crate she went and then the s/a got worse to the point that she had made her nose and muzzle bleed badly. as a lot of people have said and our vet agrees she will grow out of it. we also done all the technics to help but nothing has worked. i will be breeding from lexi but not until she is able to cope with us going out sedation free, wouldn't want anything to affect the pups.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by JulieSmith » Tue May 22, 2012 9:37 pm

Nino wrote:took me a year to house train Sølve -.-
probably both for my own reason and because it was hard for her.. but hey they are all different there..

Sølve have actually never had bad behaviour.. she did "jump" the tables to snatch food some times, but I think that's about it..
She's been a very nice dog at home - only training her (rather motivating her cause she is easy to train when you have her attention) and shy around strangers - and I have had to work on her self-esteem - but that's not too bad, some might not have been able to do it though, since it requires that I am very in tuned with her and have been a lot of work.
Saga has been a bit slow on the house training as well, I put that down to the fact we had almost finished house training Thor when we had to start again with a new puppy and we were not quite as good at it the second time round. Depending on how much exercise she has had depends on how anxious she gets when I go out, so I try to only leave Saga for a short time and only if she has had a really good walk. If I do that she is fine to be left, but otherwise she can get a bit anxious and howl, mess and find things to destroy, usually something nice and cuddly in my daughters bedroom :roll: Or find a bin that needs emptying :roll: We do not use a crate I never got the hang of crate training and Saga seems happier when not enclosed.

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Asvodian » Thu May 24, 2012 9:22 am

i cant comment on how tamaskans are because dont have one but my black lab..... she was smart, she would go near the door and give us the "look" and if we didnt catch that look she'd go behind a door or somewhere outta sight till we smelled it or stepped in it >.< she never went in the house unless she couldnt hold it anymore. never had any accidents during a car ride either, really lucked out :D

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Vajente » Thu May 24, 2012 9:34 am

Ravi(Zephyr's brother) is fine being alone
but house training was awfull with him

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by TerriHolt » Thu May 24, 2012 10:06 am

Sam was about 6 month when he didn't go in the house anymore... it was really frustrating when i took him out, he wouldn't go so we came back in and the 1st thing he did was jump on the sofa and pee... He does still have accidents if i'm busy because he needs to be seen to know he wants to go out... Doesn't stand at the door and make sound, like Asvodian said, he just stands quietly and gives "the look"...
Asvodian wrote:i cant comment on how tamaskans are because dont have one but my black lab..... she was smart, she would go near the door and give us the "look" and if we didnt catch that look she'd go behind a door or somewhere outta sight till we smelled it or stepped in it >.< she never went in the house unless she couldnt hold it anymore.
Good to know it's not just a tam thing :lol:
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by JulieSmith » Thu May 24, 2012 11:44 am

TerriHolt wrote:Sam was about 6 month when he didn't go in the house anymore... it was really frustrating when i took him out, he wouldn't go so we came back in and the 1st thing he did was jump on the sofa and pee... He does still have accidents if i'm busy because he needs to be seen to know he wants to go out... Doesn't stand at the door and make sound, like Asvodian said, he just stands quietly and gives "the look"...
Asvodian wrote:i cant comment on how tamaskans are because dont have one but my black lab..... she was smart, she would go near the door and give us the "look" and if we didnt catch that look she'd go behind a door or somewhere outta sight till we smelled it or stepped in it >.< she never went in the house unless she couldnt hold it anymore.
Good to know it's not just a tam thing :lol:
We have trained Saga to ring a bell if she needs to go out, that works quite well, she is a lot better in the house now, its now only is we leave her when she is not tired enough that we have any accidents. Only one problem with ringing the bell, she sometimes rings it just to get us to get up and open the door, not that she wants to go out :lol:

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by TerriHolt » Thu May 24, 2012 12:33 pm

I tried a dangly bell near the door but the cats liked to play with it :lol:
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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by JulieSmith » Thu May 24, 2012 4:28 pm

TerriHolt wrote:I tried a dangly bell near the door but the cats liked to play with it :lol:
:lol: what about a button that when pressed makes a noise? No idea where you would get one 8-)

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by arianwenarie » Thu May 24, 2012 4:35 pm

JulieSmith wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:I tried a dangly bell near the door but the cats liked to play with it :lol:
:lol: what about a button that when pressed makes a noise? No idea where you would get one 8-)
I'm sure you could try to get a doorbell system that makes a different sound than your home's doorbell chime. ;)

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Re: Raising Difficulty Compared To Others

Post by Hawthorne » Thu May 24, 2012 4:40 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
JulieSmith wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:I tried a dangly bell near the door but the cats liked to play with it :lol:
:lol: what about a button that when pressed makes a noise? No idea where you would get one 8-)
I'm sure you could try to get a doorbell system that makes a different sound than your home's doorbell chime. ;)
They make wireless ones that are fairly cheap. They run on batteries.
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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