Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

All topics pertaining to health and diseases that may affect your Tamaskan Dog, as well as treatment.
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Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:48 am

Hiya, i've done some 'research' on the bloodlines/relation of the foundation stock of the Tamaskan and thought it might be interesting to share.

The breed has 11 official foundation dogs, listed in the foundation booklet. (http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27)
There are 2 mayor lines, the 'finnish' line and the 'english' line. These two bloodlines are unrelated to each other and therefore a foundation dog from an 'english' line, crossed to a foundation dog from a 'finnish' line.. would have a COI of 0%. For convenience I have 'colored' up to 4 generation pedigrees of all these dogs. I have left out names, instead common ancestors are 'colored' with the same color and given a letter.

Light Grey -> Means this dog is only found once in all pedigrees within the first 4 generations.
Dark Grey -> Lines behind common ancestry.
White -> Unknown dogs.

NOTE: This is only 4 generations, the further back you go the more common ancestors you will find.

FINNISH

- Male A is found in all Finnish dogs except Jodie. He is father/grandfather/great-grandfather.

Two Socks at Moonstone (Zev)
- Dog B: 2 times
Image

Susi at Blustag (Susi)
- Dog B: 2 times
Image

Kwakiuth at Alba (Magnus)
- Dog A: 2 times
- Magnus comes from a half brother/sister mating
Image

Jackal at Blustag (Jackal)
- Dog E: 2 times
- Dog J: 2 times
Image

Dingo at Blustag (Dingo)
- Dog A: 2 times
- Dingo comes from a father/daughter mating
Image

Jodie at Blustag (Jodie)
I havn't listed Jodie as she is unrelated to any of the other dogs in the first 4 generations.

ENGLISH

Tumanra at Blustag (Tumanra)
- Dog A: 2 times
Image

Sylka at Blustag (Sylka)
Image

Paloose at Blustag (Paloose)
- Dog A: 2 times
Image

Ohanzee of Torriarno (Rann)
- Dog K: 2 times
- Dog G: 2 times
Image

Kyte at Blustag (Kyte)
Image

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Katlin » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:42 am

Interesting, thanks for sharing!
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by sequoia » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:08 am

Very cool! Thanks for posting!
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Gaby » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:40 pm

Thank you for sharing Rahne! Must took you some work to search in all the pedigrees!

If you look at the letter F, it comes in two colours. Does the letter F stands for one dog? Or does that mean that there are two different dogs, because of the colours?

And if there are only 11 foundation dogs, how many genetic diversity is there in the breed?

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:29 pm

interesting!! and pretty colors too :mrgreen: thanks for sharing and wow! that must have taken a while...
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Booma » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:09 pm

Very Interesting, although I'm slightly lost. Haha.
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:13 pm

Gaby wrote:Thank you for sharing Rahne! Must took you some work to search in all the pedigrees!

If you look at the letter F, it comes in two colours. Does the letter F stands for one dog? Or does that mean that there are two different dogs, because of the colours?

And if there are only 11 foundation dogs, how many genetic diversity is there in the breed?
You need to look at the English and Finnish lines separately, they are not related in any way. I'm no expert but to me the foundation dogs seem all very close related, with only two seperate/distinct lines. One generation further and you will have to breed back on one of the lines. Dog A from the Finnish lines will be found in every Tamaskan a few generations from now since Jackal is also used quite a lot. Now just hoping that dog doesn't carry a defective recessive gene! ;)

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:02 pm

Very interesting :) thank you for sharing!
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:07 pm

Interesting and worrisome... Jackal and Dingo are brothers?

and Susi and Magnus niece and nephew to them?

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by JulieSmith » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:28 pm

Kyliedelonge wrote:Very Interesting, although I'm slightly lost. Haha.
Snap, but it does not help I am on my phone :lol:

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:52 pm

thanks for posting this Rahne, it gives a good visual representation that is simple to understand (without getting bogged down with details)... I think it's really important to carefully consider the implications of breeding closely-related bloodlines and opt for using unrelated bloodlines wherever possible, especially dogs that have passed health testing but which haven't yet had the opportunity to breed (or have only been used once or twice, etc).
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:23 pm

AZDehlin wrote:Interesting and worrisome... Jackal and Dingo are brothers?

and Susi and Magnus niece and nephew to them?
Yes that's correct.. half brothers to be precise.
Sylvaen wrote:thanks for posting this Rahne, it gives a good visual representation that is simple to understand (without getting bogged down with details)... I think it's really important to carefully consider the implications of breeding closely-related bloodlines and opt for using unrelated bloodlines wherever possible, especially dogs that have passed health testing but which haven't yet had the opportunity to breed (or have only been used once or twice, etc).
I agree. It will be difficult (even impossible?) to use unrelated bloodlines once you crossed the 'Finnish' with the 'English' lines it seems. I think it would be very important to spread the genes as much as possible, so that means not breeding too close and try to use all males equally in breeding. Not 12 matings VS. 0 matings.

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by AngieH » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:14 pm

That's some impressive work, Rahne!

Hats off to you!

What a useful way to organize the data for TDR breeders.
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Katlin » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:47 pm

Sylvaen wrote:it's really important to carefully consider the implications of breeding closely-related bloodlines and opt for using unrelated bloodlines wherever possible, especially dogs that have passed health testing but which haven't yet had the opportunity to breed (or have only been used once or twice, etc).
Totally agree.
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Taz » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:56 pm

Very interesting.

Think the breed could benefit from more than 2 bloodlines.
11 founder dogs, most closely related within their line, something to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Much easier to sort out whilst the breed is still in development and unrecognised by the kc etc, than to try to reclaim diversity down the line.

Yes, it may set the breed back a bit in some respects, but I'd say it'll be worth it in the end.

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Katlin » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:58 pm

Taz wrote:Very interesting.

Think the breed could benefit from more than 2 bloodlines.
11 founder dogs, most closely related within their line, something to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Much easier to sort out whilst the breed is still in development and unrecognised by the kc etc, than to try to reclaim diversity down the line.

Yes, it may set the breed back a bit in some respects, but I'd say it'll be worth it in the end.

Jmo of course
No I can think of a few people (myself included) who are with you on this one ;) Well stated
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Molly » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:48 pm

AngieH wrote:That's some impressive work, Rahne! Hats off to you! What a useful way to organize the data for TDR breeders.
I agree 100% AngieH's appreciation ...... It's a great work, reflecting the will of a real selection, not to repeat too much inbreeding (particularly with who can provide breeding recessive genes) ...
I look of course, that with an eye's breeder rand I want to congratulate you Rhane !

Remarkable as this work to be performed by a person who has never made ​​it .... Tamaskan reproduction

BRAVO !

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:36 pm

Rahne wrote:I agree. It will be difficult (even impossible?) to use unrelated bloodlines once you crossed the 'Finnish' with the 'English' lines it seems. .
Yes, we had quite a worrisome time figuring out who to mate with Freyja, who is half english and half finnish. Dylan fit the bill :D

I agree about health, too. My main concern is maintaining genetic diversity for the health of the breed. If the physical traits come with it then that's a bonus. Of course, I have a biased opinion about genetics...having a scientific background.
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Eventide » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:41 pm

I'm especially happy to hear that Tracy, as I'm getting one of your Yellowstone boys. I also mentioned maybe breeding him as well, with your help as we discussed, and maybe this chart will help us figure it out in the future:?
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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:33 am

Dottie wrote:I'm especially happy to hear that Tracy, as I'm getting one of your Yellowstone boys. I also mentioned maybe breeding him as well, with your help as we discussed, and maybe this chart will help us figure it out in the future:?
Congratulations, it would be really great if you decided to test him to be a stud :)

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Re: Tamaskan Foundation Stock - bloodlines

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:22 pm

Yes, of course. The NTCA will carefully weigh everything and help guide the process.
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