DM test for the Tamaskan

All topics pertaining to health and diseases that may affect your Tamaskan Dog, as well as treatment.
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weylyn

DM test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:54 am

I want to tell all the importance of this test for the Tamaskan.
Because with the Saarloos it is required to do this test so when I let this test do for my Saarloos I also took Avak for it.
Today the results came in.

Avak is carrier of DM.
What does this mean: It means that he will never get this disease but if he will be bred with a girl that is not tested and she is also a carrier you can get sufferers. This is not what we want.
It doesn't mean you can not breed with a carrier but if you have a carrier you can only breed with tested dogs in my eyes. So that you are sure that, like say in the situation with Avak, his girl is free from DM

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Misaya » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:57 am

Sorry to hear that Avak is a carrier of DM but glad you did the test to find out.

How do they test for it, is it a blood test?
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:59 am

Wow, didn't expect that. That means that either the father or mother of Avak is also a carrier? Avak is the 1st one that is tested right?

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:05 pm

Yes Avak is the one that was tested
They can do the test with blood but also with swab.
I told this to Karsten and he will also test Summer.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by MelB » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:47 pm

That's interesting. It's good to know that tests can be carried out to aid breeders breed selectively to reduce the incidence of this devastating condition. We lost our GSD to DM in April. Sorry to hear Avak's a carrier but glad he won't be a sufferer.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:05 pm

wow Miran... this is a real shock but I, for one, am so glad that you got the test done! (and thank you also for sharing the results!)
This is really important news and now I think it is VITAL that all breeding Tamaskans are DM Tested before they are allowed to breed... so that 2 carriers are not bred together. If Avak is a carrier, does that mean that ALL his siblings are carriers or does it mean that some are carriers and some are not? If Summer is a carrier, then her parents (and breeding siblings) should be tested too... it's important to find out where it's coming from and what bloodlines are affected so we can control the situation before it gets out of hand.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathy(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:17 pm

If Avak will breed on a free girl you can get a nest where the puppies can all be free, can all be carriers or some carriers and some free.

If Avak will breed on a carrier girl all pups will be at least carriers and maybe some will be sufferers or all.

So the only way you can tell about Avaks siblings is by testing both parents. At least one of them is a carrier. If they are both than all siblings are carriers but every one should be tested than because they also can be sufferers than.
Sufferers can look great and fine until they get the disease and the thing with DM is that most wont before 5 years of age.

The thing with DM is that the test wasn't there before 2009. All breeds that have test on it(malamute, shepherds,husky,CwD,etc) have it in there population so you can not tell where it comes from. The only thing you can do is by testing that you will not breed sufferers.
If the outcome by the Tamakan is that you have in every bloodline free dogs I would say than do not breed with carriers. But if a bloodline have only carriers you must. Because if you do not, the IC will get to high and if that comes over 50% you can create, because of the high IC ,new unknown diseases.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:23 pm

Hmmm if it is a new test I'm worried that it won't be available here yet in Croatia for a while... (things here are a bit behind in that sense)... maybe next time I'm in Germany or Holland I can go to a vet there to get the test done for Vixen (as well as the dwarfism test). I want to make sure that she's tested for as much as possible so I can make the right choices for breeding.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:25 pm

You can order a swab kit. Maybe if you come to show then Karsten could order a few swab kits for anyone who's interested? I will be testing Konah aswell because she can be a carrier.

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:27 pm

No this test is for every breed available by OFA or Laboklin
For you the best is Laboklin and you can order the test on http://www.laboklin.de/pages/php/news.php?lang=en

You can do a swab kit but you can also send blood

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Oh! Fantastic! In that case I will definitely do the swab test then... I will try to come to the show so that will be the best solution. I can do the test right then and there. Maybe it would be an idea to order several test kits so that we can test as many Tamaskans as possible.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:01 pm

That is surprising but I'm glad you got the test done.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:18 am

Thanks for sharing Miran. I will also look into getting my breeding dogs tested.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Misaya » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:45 am

Does anyone know roughly how much it costs to have the swab test done?
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:48 am

It's $65 trough OFA.

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:49 am

By OFA it cost 65 dollar but you need a credit card then and by Laboklin it cost 66 euro's. I did it by Laboklin

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Misaya » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:51 am

So that's roughly £45 in the UK, for the OFA and £55 for the Labokin.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:54 am

I think I will order it trough OFA. It's 52 euros then and the results will also be placed in their open database.

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:55 am

65 dollar= 44,42 GBP
66 euro's = 54,92 GBP

I also wanted to order by OFA but I do not have a credit card. Maybe if there are more that do not have a credit card they can talk to the ones that does?

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:58 am

I also wanted to order by OFA but I do not have a credit card. Maybe if there are more that do not have a credit card they can talk to the ones that does?
Yes, you should have talked to me, I have a credit card ;)

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:58 am

Great and thanks Rahne. I will keep that in mind the next time :D
Maybe it is good if you ask who will have one and come to the meeting in Germany so maybe you can order for them?

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:22 am

ok, as I will be ordering a swab kit myself I can also order for other people :)
If anyone is interested then please mail me at: rahnemeeder@hotmail.com

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 am

Rahne wrote:ok, as I will be ordering a swab kit myself I can also order for other people :)
I think I might take you up on that offer. I am going to the meeting! :D
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:21 am

Well if you do let me know ;)

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Mylingen » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:24 am

Thank you ever so much for sharing this Miran!
It is great that Avak is not a sufferer. :)
We will definitely have our Ooki tested.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by MoirAran » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:14 pm

Such a good thing that you are have started to test your Tamaskans for DM.

Hopefully you can rule out combinations, so sufferers wont be born, coz testing can prevent with 2 carriers.
It is an awful disease, I know a German Shepard who has DM.
Greetings, Kristel
Aran & Moira & Rayne

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:50 pm

That's a very nice werewolf MoirAran! :lol:

Can anyone give details about which bloodlines might be affected, so that we all know if we should test our individual dogs?
I don't know who Avak is related to. Thanks ever so much!
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:39 pm

Avak is one of the muensterland litter.
Mother: Summer
Father: Apache Horse.

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:19 pm

Well because Avak is a carrier of DM I decided to have Konah tested asap aswell. Today I got the results back from OFA: AT RISK :cry:

So this means that Konah is a sufferer... She doesn't have to develop the disease (lets hope not!) but there is now a chance that she will get it. I hope that her brothers and sisters will get tested soon and that they are either carriers or free.

It's important that other lines will get tested aswell!

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by MelB » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Oh no! Poor Konah & what a worry for you too. Hopefully she won't get it or if she does she gets it very late in life (my GSDs were both 11-12 when they got diagnosed).
Thank you for testing and letting us all know.

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:29 pm

Sorry to hear that Rahne. It is a shock to me.

I will ask Wilma that has a Saarloos sufferer from DM and has information for you how you can help Konah to make her stronger so that the change of developing the disease will increase.

It also means that both parents from this nest are carriers. So apache horse and Summer are both carriers. So besides they make beautiful pups is best never to make that combination again.

Please everyone who has dogs that are related to one of those please also do the test because it is in the lines.
My advise is anyway is to test every breeding dog on DM and give all breeders that information so it will never happen again that you can breed sufferers.
You can only use a carrier on a free one.

If I ever have a litter I will test the pups and only send free ones to breeding homes.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by MelB » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:48 pm

I have a research article that a vet friend gave me on DM when Holly was diagnosed. Would it be helpful if I PM'd you the general information?

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:11 pm

Maybe it is a good artikel for us all Mel :)
But please may and can I have it also in a PM than?
Because it also can be very helpfull for me for the Saarloos people who have sufferers.

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:14 pm

I have a research article that a vet friend gave me on DM when Holly was diagnosed. Would it be helpful if I PM'd you the general information?
Yes, that would be very nice. Thank you!

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:40 am

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear the news... but also really glad that you got the test done. At least now you can prepare for the worst and take any steps necessary to prevent Konah from getting DM. I also think it is very important for ALL breeding dogs to be DM tested and I will get it done ASAP.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by MoirAran » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:14 am

So sorry to hear this news :cry:
Greetings, Kristel
Aran & Moira & Rayne

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by wicca1 » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:44 pm

sorry to hear this news :( .

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Mylingen » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:56 pm

I am sorry to hear that Rahne, but let's all hope for the best, that Konah never has to suffer from it.
I will have Ooki tested, even if we will never breed from him, I want to know if he might be at risk as well so that we are prepared for it.
Thank you for sharing, hugs for Konah.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Tarheel » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:09 am

Explanation of DM DNA Test Results

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Normal (N/N)
This dog is homozygous N/N, with two normal copies of the gene. In the seven breeds studied at the University of Missouri in depth so far, dogs with test results of N/N (Normal) have never been confirmed to have DM. This dog can only transmit the normal gene to its offspring, and it is unlikely that this dog or its offspring will ever develop DM.

Carrier (A/N)
This dog is heterozygous A/N, with one mutated copy of the gene and one normal copy of the gene, and is classified as a carrier. In the seven breeds studied at the University of Missouri in depth so far, dogs with test results of A/N have never been confirmed to have DM. While it is highly unlikely this dog will ever develop DM, this dog can transmit either the normal gene or the mutated gene to its offspring.

At-Risk (A/A)
This dog is homozygous A/A, with two mutated copies of the gene, and is at risk for developing Degenerative Myelopathy (DM). The research has shown that all dogs in the research study with confirmed DM have had A/A DNA test results, however, not all dogs testing as A/A have shown clinical signs of DM. DM is typically a late onset disease, and dogs testing as A/A that are clinically normal may still begin to show signs of the disease as they age. Some dogs testing A/A did not begin to show clinical signs of DM until they were 15 years of age. Research is ongoing to estimate what percentage of dogs testing as A/A will develop DM within their lifespan. At this point, the mutation can only be interpreted as being at risk of developing DM within the animal’s life. For dogs showing clinical signs with a presumptive diagnosis of DM, affected (A/A) test results can be used as an additional tool to aid in the diagnosis of DM. Dogs testing At-Risk (A/A) can only pass the mutated gene on to their offspring.

Equivocal
An Equivocal test result indicates that the test results were inconclusive. This is typically the result of poor sample collection. When the test yields an equivocal result, a second punch will be taken from the FTA card and the test rerun. If the second test is still equivocal, the owner will be contacted and asked to submit a new sample.

I hope this breakdown of the (DM) test results is helpful. I copied this from one of the links from the OFFA.org web site.
John Bannow
Tarheel Tamaskan
Committee of Breeders

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:31 am

Thank you everyone, it's hoping now that she will never get sick.
I will have Ooki tested, even if we will never breed from him, I want to know if he might be at risk as well so that we are prepared for it.
Thank you for sharing, hugs for Konah.
I'm glad that you're willing to test your boy. Hopefully at least all the breeding dogs will get tested from now on so we can prevent to breed more sufferers.

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Misaya » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:33 pm

Rahne wrote:hoping now that she will never get sick.
I do hope so too. Although if it is many years down the line they may perhaps have found a cure by then.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sindi » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:29 pm

well, I also think, that I'm missing something.. Because if it would be sooo easy, I can't imagine that DM still exists in some breeds (except, there was no possibility for testing before).

But if it's in real exactly like in theory - well, I know, that there are not always exactly 50% free ones and so on.. but you know, what I'm meaning ;-) - than the Tamaskan breed could be free of it quite soon. It would be within a few generations.

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:37 pm

well, I also think, that I'm missing something.. Because if it would be sooo easy, I can't imagine that DM still exists in some breeds (except, there was no possibility for testing before).
Actually the testing is only available for about a year now so this could very well be the reason why it still exists. The disease only shows at older age after breeding age so breeders just didn't know that they were breeding carriers & sufferers. They are now working hard to breed more free dogs and no sufferers but with the Saarloos ofcourse you also have other diseases to worry about like dwarfism. I hope that won't be a problem in the tamaskan breed aswell because then it will be a lot harder to make decisions.

You could then have dogs that are carriers to both and then you would have to find dogs that are free to both so there would be a lot less combinations that you could make.

weylyn

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:58 pm

The thing about breeding with a small gene pool is that sometimes you can not exclude sufferers x free ones.
But that is by the saarloos only on a basis as last options if you really can not make a good combi with a free x free one or free x carrier one.
Also the owner of the sufferer realize that it will bring the age down of getting the real disease and that they have to realize that.

So when breeders make the choice of sufferer x free one it is not just because there are a lot of eyes on it.
By the Saarloos it is at this time so hard to breed on good genes without diseases that we have ask the FCI(raad van beheer in NL) if we may make a out-cross for a good health and gene pool again.
If we may the best is to set a few new lines up but you need people that want to give homes to the first 5 generations. Because the first nest out-cross will be a G1 and those will be crossed with a 100% saarloos and then you have a G2 and that 5 generations long. Just by the 5 generation they will get the official FCI pedigree again.

So with a small amount of gene pool by the tamaskan it would be not wisely to close the bloodlines already because they are not recognized yet so you can make a good base (but I think you need more bloodlines for that as there are now or you can get the same problems we have now with the saarloos) for a recognized breed.

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:15 pm

Also the owner of the sufferer realize that it will bring the age down of getting the real disease and that they have to realize that.
Has this been proven? This would make the decision a lot harder to take for the owner itself. :(
So with a small amount of gene pool by the tamaskan it would be not wisely to close the bloodlines already because they are not recognized yet so you can make a good base (but I think you need more bloodlines for that as there are now or you can get the same problems we have now with the saarloos) for a recognized breed.

100% agree with this!

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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:59 pm

It does make good sense, but the only way is to ensure strict regulation and that every dog is fully tested. I think, in theory, it can be done. We don't want too many carriers so your idea to limit breeding also is very logical. It's also very important to maximize the Free X Free matings to produce as many Free offspring as possible.
Rahne wrote:
Also the owner of the sufferer realize that it will bring the age down of getting the real disease and that they have to realize that.
Has this been proven? This would make the decision a lot harder to take for the owner itself. :(
Breeding is always a big exertion for any animal. For males it is not so tough but the stress on a female's body is much more extreme: pregnancy, whelping, weaning, etc. So, in that sense, it definitely would increase the actual risk of getting the disease itself, and sooner rather than later. It's a similar situation with betta fish... the ones that are used for breeding never live as long as the ones that have never been bred. The acts of courting, spawning (mating) and raising the young is a big exertion so, while their genes live on in future generations, they themselves often expire much sooner than non-breeding bettas. Of course, with dogs, they can live just as long lives regardless of whether they have had pups or not... but for a dog that is at risk of a disease that occurs later in life, I think it definitely plays a part.
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:35 am

By the Saarloos every dog have to have all test or you may not even use it for breeding ;) The whole database with the dogs is available for all breeders so they can look for a good mach. By every dog is placed what test they had and the outcome.
But also by the saarloos the DM test is new.
DM is a disease that starts mostly in the spine(the nerves that past trough it)
And with a pregnancy it has an extra trigger. So sometimes it doesn't make a difference but most of the time it speeds up the progress by years.

I am very for the health of my own dogs but also for the offspring they put or can put in the world.(sometimes you didn't know about the test so you cannot do something about that, but if you know you have to breed wisely with it or not at all) I do all test by my dogs where I know of that can be in a certain breed(I did Avak because it is also in the Malamute), even by Bine. I do not test Bine for the breeding process because she is neutered because of her epilepsy but just to know if she is healthy and what I can do to keep it that way.

Rahne

Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:46 am

Ok, thanks for all the info Miran and Debby.

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Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:05 pm

Guidelines for Breeding DM Dogs testing "Carrier" or "At Risk"

Owners with dogs testing as Carriers (A/N), or At-Risk (A/A) are strongly encouraged to share these results with their attending veterinarian and seek genetic counseling when making breeding decisions.

The “A” (mutated) allele appears to be very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate dogs testing A/A or A/N might be devastating to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dog, and can be a trying experience for the owners that care for them. A realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to treat the test results as one would treat any other undesirable trait or fault. Dogs testing At-Risk (A/A) should be considered to have a more serious fault than those testing as Carriers (A/N). Incorporating this information into their selection criteria, breeders can then proceed as conscientious breeders have always done: make their breeding selections based on all the dog’s strengths and all the dog’s faults. Using this approach and factoring the DM test results into the breeding decisions should reduce the prevalence of DM in the subsequent generations while continuing to maintain and improve upon positive, sought after traits.

We recommend that breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize the test results. Instead, the test result should be one factor among many in a balanced breeding program.
http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dmbreederguide.html
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Re: the Degenerative Myelopathie(DM) test for the Tamaskan

Post by weylyn » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:28 pm

indeed so if you have a nest out of 1 bloodline where there are only 2 or 3 pups it is worth to consider to use a sufferer but in a line where there are 10 pups you look for those witch are free. If there are non free you look to the carriers and than to the sufferers.

So if there is a free boy and a free girl out of a line I would not use the carriers or sufferers. Only if there is no other option.
If all are carriers or sufferers I would use more than one boy and girl of the carriers and than get all puppy tested the first day they are born and only let the free ones of those go to breeder homes.
If there are like two carriers and the rest is sufferer I would also use them and then do the same but skip a generation with taking out the free ones.
I mean this situation of course that all would be bread to free ones and after a 1 or 2 generations you have all free ones again.But of course that is only possible if more than 70% of the breeding dogs are free........

But that is just my opinion for keeping the good things from a line and the gene-pool........

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