lead or harness

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soph
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lead or harness

Post by soph » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:30 pm

can anyone help please, Dylan always pulls when we are out on our walks, at the moment we use a k9 Bridle which helps but it really digs into his nose and is making it very sore, can anyone suggest anything else that we could use to stop him from pulling, soph

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Re: lead or harness

Post by Rahne » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:36 pm

Did you do any training with him to try and stop the pulling? I don't use 'tools' to stop the pulling so can't help you with that, sorry.

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Re: lead or harness

Post by Booma » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:52 pm

Maybe a different kind of halter collar with better padding on the nose? A harness will just make him stronger when he pulls.
I've heard when training not to pull on the lead, to stop walking everytime they pull ahead and make them come back to you before walking again, and repeat every time this happens. It will make your walks take ages, but it may work if you stick to it.
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Re: lead or harness

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:58 pm

I have the same issue with my dogs nose harness. After Zephyr wore some of his fur trying to pull with it on I tossed it aside. I have figured out turning and walking the other way for a few weeks has helped him a lot to stop pulling... I also stop and make him sit and relax before we are allowed to go again. Patience has done a lot more for us than any of those fancy collars... Hope this helps

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Re: lead or harness

Post by TeresaC » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:00 pm

I have successfully used the anti-pulling harnesses. The lead attaches to the front of the harness so they can't actually pull you forward. I have had success using the Easy Walk Harness.
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Re: lead or harness

Post by Dozer » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:34 pm

Kyliedelonge wrote:
I've heard when training not to pull on the lead, to stop walking everytime they pull ahead and make them come back to you before walking again, and repeat every time this happens. It will make your walks take ages, but it may work if you stick to it.
I am for this also and know this doesn't work with every dog. But in variation on this you can also learn him not to pull with a long leash. If you have space to train him you walk away from him every time. When he walks your direction you walk another direction.
If you do this in a proper way after a while he would follow you.
I hope it is a bit understandable how I set it here :$

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Re: lead or harness

Post by PawPrint » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:59 pm

Kyliedelonge wrote: I've heard when training not to pull on the lead, to stop walking everytime they pull ahead and make them come back to you before walking again, and repeat every time this happens. It will make your walks take ages, but it may work if you stick to it.
This worked very well with my dog. Just a lead, no harness.

As soon as she pulled I stopped walking and said nothing until she relaxed and there was slack on the lead. Only then did we carry on.

I didn't have to do this for very long for her to get the message!( she was a very bright dog though) She would only need reminding when something very exciting was going on, then I would just stop walking or say " ah!" and she would run back to my heel and wait whilst looking at me like " :roll: time waster"

She still pulled the rest of my family who didn't do this training with her though!

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Re: lead or harness

Post by HiTenshi16 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:28 am

Kyliedelonge wrote:I've heard when training not to pull on the lead, to stop walking everytime they pull ahead and make them come back to you before walking again, and repeat every time this happens. It will make your walks take ages, but it may work if you stick to it.
I've been using this technique since Ulric was a pup but he is just stubborn. He is even worse when we go to the dog park, I get him to sit but as soon as I step forward, he really pulls. We keep going back to the car and start toward the park each time he pulls and he eventually gets the idea, for that night :roll:
We have been using the head Halti and he did not pull as much then, but he hates it, I given that up and gave it to my sister for better luck with her dog. I did not want to buy a no-pull harness since the one I will get will be to encourage pulling when we do Canicross. I want him to understand the idea the the harness means it's okay to pull, regular lead means not okay to pull.

I did come across a video on another technique to help stop them from pulling, or as she calls it in this video, "yo-yoing" as Ulric seems to do with me.
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Re: lead or harness

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:27 pm

Hellan showed me a trick that he was taught by a czech owner we both know, it really do Wonders for Sølve (she's not bad with the pulling though)
I dunno if it needs to be a bitch if you use it though.. I will try to cam it when I get a chance.

But the trick is to put the lead in the colar and den around the chest and the end through the loop so the leash goes from the collar, around the dog throug it self and to your hand.
The trick is that every time the dog pulls the leash around the chest and back will tighten and when it stops pulling it will loosen right away...
I tried to draw what I meant but tbh I didn't really take much time but I hope you get the idea anyway :lol: :lol:
leash.png
As said above, I don't really need to use the trick with Sølve much and only if she is over exited or we are walking with another dog too.
I do believe that you shouldn't do it too often though cause like the collar then the dog will just get used to pulling there
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Re: lead or harness

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:26 pm

TeresaC wrote:I have successfully used the anti-pulling harnesses. The lead attaches to the front of the harness so they can't actually pull you forward. I have had success using the Easy Walk Harness.
My lab was a puller when I first got her and I used to wrap the entire leash around my back and shoulder to get some more leverage against her. lol. I've never used the Easy Walk Harness on my dog, but I have used it with small dogs and large breeds under 6 months old when teaching leash walking to some of our dog training clients. With the Easy Walk harness, we never do what we call the "drop and turn"; rather, we do more tight left/right turns into the dog's neck/shoulder area to change direction -- if the dog is paying attention, they won't get bumped by our leg, otherwise, they get a body check. Many people we teach are afraid they'll hurt their dog by doing this, so they make a huge circle when turning around to avoid bumping into their dog - this tells the dog the human is hesitant and isn't serious about a body check. Making sharp, 90 degree turns into the dog will help them build focus on you during a walk. Of course, with puppies, it's difficult since their attention span is literally 1-2 seconds...if even. lol. Doing left/right turns into the dog will take longer for the dog to learn how to focus and work for you on a walk versus the "drop and turn" method.

Since my lab was an adult at the time I got her, I utilized the "drop and turn" method on a slip chain. The "drop and turn" method won't work on an Easy Walk Harness - it'll hurt the dog instead. Every time I felt tension on the leash, I dropped my slack and took off in the opposite direction for at least 10 steps. If I had wanted to go in the direction I was originally going, I'd just make a left turn into her head to turn her around (since I'm right handed, she walks on my left). Her correction came from the slip chain and since I was 6 ft away from her, not looking at her nor talking to her, there were no hard feelings and in her mind, the correction didn't come from me -- the correction was because she wasn't paying attention. :)

With both methods that I described above, the goal is to get the dog into a working state of mind where they're focused on their handler - almost like dancing with your dog. The difficulties I personally had with these methods are:
-looking back after doing a "drop and turn" to see if she was catching up to me - in the dog's mind, it's me apologizing for correcting her in addition, she would know that the correction came from me; thus, bad feelings. :(
-giving a verbal correction prior to a correction (turn or "drop and turn") - gave her a warning so I couldn't really correct her effectively

The important thing with this method of leash walking is that we don't want to talk to them, touch them nor give them eye contact. The only time I talk to my dog during a walk is to praise her for looking at me and focusing on me. The only time I give her eye contact is if she gives me eye contact or looks to me for instruction if we encounter a situation where she could potentially take charge (chasing a squirrel on a walk).

Where I work as a dog trainer, we're not allowed to use collars on puppies under 6 months old nor on small dogs, regardless of age, to teach leash walking. For puppies under 6 months, their neck muscles aren't developed enough and we could damage their necks if we do a "drop and turn" - which is why we only do left/right turns. For senior dogs or dogs with hip/joint problems, we don't do the "drop and turn" - only left/right turns. We also don't start off using a slip chain right off the bat - we try using a cloth martingale, then upgrade to a chain martingale if the dog doesn't respond to the corrections, for power pullers, we use the slip chain because it mimics a true canine correction (verbal pop "chains gathering" and then a quick bite "when the chain gathers, it pinches" and then quick release). The chain martingale also mimics a true canine correction, but without the "bite" of the slip chain. We DON'T use prong collars! :( As a last resort, if the slip chain doesn't work, then we use a dominant dog collar - not recommended for anyone, btw. :P

The method of leash walking described above mimics how your dog has taught you to walk on a leash - they don't talk to you; if they see something they want to chase, they take off. They don't apologize for pulling your arm out of the socket nor if they plowed through your legs to get to something they want. Finally, with the amount of force they can pull you, there's certainly no way you can hurt your dog in your "feel bad" mode. There's no physical punishment involved - the correction they get from a "drop and turn" is from their momentum, not how much force you're pulling to get away (which you don't want to do - just give the leash a pop and quick release of tension when doing a "drop and turn"). When bumping into them when turning around - it's just a slight shuffle of your leg to sweep them in the direction you want to go - you'll find after a few times (generally speaking), your dog will duck and weave to avoid being bumped (PRAISE!). If your dog runs to catch up to you and didn't get a correction from a "drop and turn", PRAISE!! However, if your dog got out of your way during a right/left turn, then don't go out of your way to bump your dog - they don't need to be corrected for something they did right. (Yes, I had one client that went out of her way to chase her dog's head to bump into her dog when her dog got out of her way during a turn. :P)

Other randomness:
A harness that has the leash attach to the back of the dog will multiply the dog's pulling power by 10x their weight.
For every 6 inches of leash slack that you give your dog, they gain 10x their weight in pulling force. (i.e. a 70lb dog with 6 inches of slack = 700lbs of pulling force)

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Re: lead or harness

Post by Katlin » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:47 pm

Nino wrote:Hellan showed me a trick that he was taught by a czech owner we both know, it really do Wonders for Sølve (she's not bad with the pulling though)
I dunno if it needs to be a bitch if you use it though.. I will try to cam it when I get a chance.

But the trick is to put the lead in the colar and den around the chest and the end through the loop so the leash goes from the collar, around the dog throug it self and to your hand.
The trick is that every time the dog pulls the leash around the chest and back will tighten and when it stops pulling it will loosen right away...
I tried to draw what I meant but tbh I didn't really take much time but I hope you get the idea anyway :lol: :lol:
leash.png
As said above, I don't really need to use the trick with Sølve much and only if she is over exited or we are walking with another dog too.
I do believe that you shouldn't do it too often though cause like the collar then the dog will just get used to pulling there

I use this on labs and dogs that seem to not even feel the leash when I'm pulling on it (and I'm strong :lol: ) it works so well!
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Re: lead or harness

Post by soph » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:21 pm

Thank you everyone for your tips, will try and see what works and will keep you updated :D soph

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Re: lead or harness

Post by LizBrown » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:30 pm

Nino wrote:Hellan showed me a trick that he was taught by a czech owner we both know, it really do Wonders for Sølve (she's not bad with the pulling though)
I dunno if it needs to be a bitch if you use it though.. I will try to cam it when I get a chance.

But the trick is to put the lead in the colar and den around the chest and the end through the loop so the leash goes from the collar, around the dog throug it self and to your hand.
The trick is that every time the dog pulls the leash around the chest and back will tighten and when it stops pulling it will loosen right away...
Thank you for this I am looking after my daughters beagle now she is at uni and have tried many different leads and harnesses to no avail but today I have had success lets hope it continues

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Re: lead or harness

Post by Nino » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:44 pm

That's great..

I just wouldn't do it too much as I suspect it would just cause the dog to get used to it..
I never did an entire walk with it like that with Sølve either, she pulled less and less and I would take it off, if she started pulling again I would put it on again..
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Re: lead or harness

Post by nivenj » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:03 pm

I must admit, I'm not convinced that a lead or harness actually makes a material difference in terms of a dogs desire to pull. Most dogs have a natural tendency to pull in the opposite direction (Opposition reflex or something like that). For me a lead is purely a safety device. I dont like chokers though.

The way I used to train my dogs (and it was a long time ago!) was to carry a treat bag on the side of my belt. I would always start with some basic, sit, down and stay commands, always making sure the dog sees me going into the bag for each and every treat. It doesnt take long for them to associate the bag on my belt has treats. I then immediately try some heel work, as i was walking i would say the word "heel" and ensure the dog saw me going into my bag for the treat, i would then hold the treat down to my side and slightly in front of my leg and the dog wold naturally fall into the heel position. All this without breaking stride. A dozen or so more of these and the dog was soon keeping a very close eye on the treat bag, difficult to do if its pulling ahead of you so it naturally started to fall instep instead of pulling ahead. A couple of weeks of that and it became second nature. Now...I've never done this with a TAM, so I have no idea wether that particular approach will work with this breed, but i suggest you've got nothing to lose.
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Re: lead or harness

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:18 pm

nivenj wrote:I must admit, I'm not convinced that a lead or harness actually makes a material difference in terms of a dogs desire to pull. Most dogs have a natural tendency to pull in the opposite direction (Opposition reflex or something like that). For me a lead is purely a safety device. I dont like chokers though.

The way I used to train my dogs (and it was a long time ago!) was to carry a treat bag on the side of my belt. I would always start with some basic, sit, down and stay commands, always making sure the dog sees me going into the bag for each and every treat. It doesnt take long for them to associate the bag on my belt has treats. I then immediately try some heel work, as i was walking i would say the word "heel" and ensure the dog saw me going into my bag for the treat, i would then hold the treat down to my side and slightly in front of my leg and the dog wold naturally fall into the heel position. All this without breaking stride. A dozen or so more of these and the dog was soon keeping a very close eye on the treat bag, difficult to do if its pulling ahead of you so it naturally started to fall instep instead of pulling ahead. A couple of weeks of that and it became second nature. Now...I've never done this with a TAM, so I have no idea wether that particular approach will work with this breed, but i suggest you've got nothing to lose.
I'm glad you mentioned this because I remember I did something similar with my dog. Every treat she got was from a fist so she learned that if I make a fist, I must have a treat in my hand. Not true. Lol. She falls for the trick all the time, as do most dogs, so I use this to my advantage when working on a loose lead heel - dog walks on my left, all of the leash is held in my right hand and my left hand is at my side or my waist in a fist as if I were holding a treat. Imagine the amount of focus I got with a very treat motivated lab. Lol!!

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Re: lead or harness

Post by JulieSmith » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:56 pm

I use treats to train Saga, but she is not always that treat motivated if off lead :roll: I like the fist idea I will try that.

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Re: lead or harness

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:08 pm

JulieSmith wrote:I use treats to train Saga, but she is not always that treat motivated if off lead :roll: I like the fist idea I will try that.
You pretty much give a treat in a fist for as many commands as you can. Some commands like 'stand' or 'touch', I would have to use a flat hand. Once your dog falls for the empty fist trick, practice the 'watch me' command to death - throw in as many distractions as possible. ;) If you have trouble with recall off leash, you can use a clicker (doesn't matter if you do clicker training) if your dog knows click = treat. I use a clicker as my emergency recall because that cheap little box can be heard from a mile away. Much better than I can do with my voice. Lol.

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Re: lead or harness

Post by MelB » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:53 pm

I haven't read all of the replies but we have used the stop-go method. As soon as the lead goes tight, not even pulling as such, I stop. When Cindy comes back to my side, I reward and we carry on walking. It certainly helped but there was still an awful lot of stop-starting and she would forget everything if she saw a dog she really wanted to play with or a human who made eye contact, indicating (to her) another playmate.

I was against using a training aid purely because we wanted to use her as a therapy dog with PAT who don't allow the use of any training aids, not even a halter collar etc. (We have used a Halti before with other dogs since they first were designed by Dr Roger Mugford 20+ years ago)

However, just recently we decided we'd give a Halti a go with Cindy and I can't believe the difference it made, immediately. It is nothing short of miraculous. She is a completely different dog. Perhaps it is linked with trying the stop-go method first.

I noticed on his website (Company of Animals) that Dr Mugford has now produced a Halti with a padded noseband. I got one for Cindy and it does feel nice and soft. Unfortunately, I got one a size too large and she chewed if off when she was left alone in it for 5 minutes. Size 2 is perfect for Cindy so I assume it is also a good fit for most Tams.

I aim to try her without the Halti again. It would be nice to use her as PAT dog because she loves meeting people.

Edited to add: I've just watched the video clip. We've done that too and it does help. We get lots of bemused looks from passers-by but who cares?

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Re: lead or harness

Post by JulieSmith » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:38 am

arianwenarie wrote:
JulieSmith wrote:I use treats to train Saga, but she is not always that treat motivated if off lead :roll: I like the fist idea I will try that.
You pretty much give a treat in a fist for as many commands as you can. Some commands like 'stand' or 'touch', I would have to use a flat hand. Once your dog falls for the empty fist trick, practice the 'watch me' command to death - throw in as many distractions as possible. ;) If you have trouble with recall off leash, you can use a clicker (doesn't matter if you do clicker training) if your dog knows click = treat. I use a clicker as my emergency recall because that cheap little box can be heard from a mile away. Much better than I can do with my voice. Lol.
I use a whistle, a nice loud one and a really good quality treat when she does come back for that.

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