Stubborn jumper!

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Stubborn jumper!

Post by trina » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:11 pm

Since we got Timber a couple of weeks ago, he's always wanted to jump up on us. It's not actually aggressive, but usually just when he wants attention--which is often. I've never had such an issue training past dogs to stay down after this long... Is it normal for Tamaskans to be more stubborn about stopping bad behavior like this?

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:17 pm

While I don't have a Tamaskan, my lab used to jump on me all the time when I got home. Try walking into him and bumping him off instead of giving him the attention he wants. After about a week or 2 of me doing this, she stopped jumping on me and just started jumping in front of me... lol.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by TParham86 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:39 pm

Well every Tam is different, some learn quicker than others :) My Tam gets very excited when I come home and still jumps on me and I've tried the ignoring her when I came home to trying to block her with my legs when she jumps up etc :roll: Usually after a few woohooing she'll stop jumping and then I greet her. The biggest issue I've ran into was trying to stop her from jumping on other people that want to say hi. That's the main reason I'm trying to break her of that habit ;)

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Booma » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm

I Dnt have a tam yet either, but I think it's just that he wasnt trained properly. What Arian said has always worked for me with dogs that like to jump
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Gaby » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:20 pm

My Tam likes to jump up to greet when she likes somebody. With ignoring her when she is jumping and giving a command to sit and only than give her attention, she now stays with four paws on the ground. If you do this consequent you can teach him to stay low. I do have to remind her sometimes and have to say "Low". You also have to instruct people who come and visit, so they can help you with this.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by JulieSmith » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:38 pm

We ignored Saga when she was a puppy so now she usually does not jump up in greeting, but sometimes she forgets and needs reminding, especially if we have been out a bit long and she is very pleased to see us :D . Since Timber is older it will take him a bit longer to learn, but it is worth teaching him as soon as possible.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by jmarino82 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:17 pm

Look up a method called NILF. It's a training method that uses the dogs desire to belong to a pack to. Curb unwanted behavior. It's basically ignoring them when they are bad and rewarding good behavior with attention and inclusion. My dog is scary smart so we really had to this to keep her manageable.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Tiantai » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:41 pm

I've witnessed my distant relative's Sasha (long-coated Chihuahua pup) jumping up and down by one of the ring counters at the Linh Lan Jewellery and Collectibles store in Chinatown once. She doesn't always do this but sometimes she just wants to climb high and has actually leaped up to a 4 ft counter once. She's not being aggressive but I don't really understand why she did that nor do I know what she's trying to tell us since my Buddy never did any of that stuff (I mean in a public store, he has jumped from counter to counter in a kitchen) but I do hope that Lawrence catches her in the act the next time she's there and tries to leap up to the glass because I don't want that little girl falling off the high counter.
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:26 pm

I just had to revive this topic as I am having real problems with getting Max to stay "off" and need to know what others have done to stop this behavior once and for all. I use the "off" command as not to confuse him with the "down" that is something different (usually accompanied with "sit").

He is usually pretty good about not jumping on me, but he does with everyone else he knows and likes, and especially when he wants to play. We've tried everything mentioned above and so far nothing has worked consistently. Even when we ignore him and walk away, he will jump on your back to get your attention. This mostly happens when someone comes into the house, but not only then, sometimes if they get up and he thinks they might play with him he'll get their attention by jumping.

When he does it to me, I usually grab his fur on either side of his face to get his full attention on me, make eye contact and tell him "Max, no, off" sternly. Then I walk away and ignore him for a few minutes. If he doesn't jump, I return and love on him.

I've even asked others to tell him "off" as he approaches them. If he stays down then they will greet him, but on many occasions, as they walk past him -- up he goes onto their back :roll: . My boy is nine months old and weighs over 70 pounds - not fun when he jumps up and then slides down your back with his rough paws, or worse nails :cry:

(I'm also going to post this on FB for those who may not access this website)
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:39 pm

Thank you! I have been looking for this...

Sam is 2 on the 31st Dec and I have had no success... it's a real problem with visitors :oops: and the kids go flying. I have never had this issue... ever. I can get him to stay down using treats (if he can sit still long enough to figure out I have them which is a rarity) but it usually results in me or the kids been covered in scratches...
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:40 pm

TerriHolt wrote:Thank you! I have been looking for this...

Sam is 2 on the 31st Dec and I have had no success... it's a real problem with visitors :oops: and the kids go flying. I have never had this issue... ever. I can get him to stay down using treats (if he can sit still long enough to figure out I have them which is a rarity) but it usually results in me or the kids been covered in scratches...
Yep, I know what you mean :oops: and it seems with some of our dogs there is no real (natural) solution . . . :(
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by MelB » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:00 pm

Cindy is 2.5 years and she's still not learned "off" properly. We used all sorts of training techniques - ignoring, turning backs (makes her even worse if anything), even knee up for protection's sake. We're re-visiting the sit and wait for attention technique and she's very very slowly getting used to the idea of sitting before getting attention. Strangely she is worse with visitors if we're in the room with them.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:37 am

What you could try is have the dog drag a leash around the house, only when supervised. Or if you know you're expecting visitors, clip a leash on before the whole chaos ensues and keep the dog near you.

If you just know when or in what situation your dog will start the jumping on people thing, then stand on the leash - give the dog enough slack to where he/she can stand up with just enough slack to where the leash is a little loose...Once your dog starts to jump, they won't be able to jump as high as they want to because the leash will be preventing them from doing so. In their minds, they're getting a correction from the ground (that's only if you're NOT looking at them). It's likely you'll need help if the door needs to be answered... Have one person dedicated to handling the dog while the other person handles the door and guests - this causes less stress for everyone and less confusion for the dog as the handler can give clear commands and not have to worry about other factors (as much). ;)

IMHO, I don't believe the turning your back and ignoring the dog works because if I think in dog terms - nothing is really happening; dog can still jump on you and get away with it. The human not paying attention to them mentality, I can see, may work to a certain extent, but to me, I don't think it's good enough...it'll take a long time before the dog will be able to associate jumping = no attention. Most dogs I've seen will keep jumping in an effort to get your attention...that doesn't do anyone any good and will likely just leave you with more scratches on your back.

If you take the same effort to take a hard step into your dog (let them get their paws on you...they'll get their paws on you and scratch even if you turn your back) as or when they jump on you, the dog will see that you can't be pushed around - you will reclaim your space and that's final. Sometimes, the stepping on the leash thing is necessary for these people jumpers because they're just too darn persistent. lol. My lab was one of 'em...she caught on quick though - if she was on leash and jumped, she'd get a correction from the ground; a "self correction" so to speak. She didn't get attention and she didn't get the satisfaction of getting to jump on me...so it was a win-win situation for me. :D After a couple days of this repeatedly, she realized that she won't get attention until she was calm. And then, a few days after that, she learned that she was allowed to go bonkers jumping around in front of me, but not on me...but her silliness still wouldn't gain any attention, so she now keeps her excitement as low as possible and the attention comes faster. heh.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:54 am

I once tried the stepping on the leash thing... Everyone but me found it hilarious :oops: . Just stepping on it, he would be able to pull it out from under my foot so i, the genius i am, put my foot through the handle but that just resulted in me hopping along on one foot behind him while he dragged me to our visitors :oops: (he is very strong)...

I have tried giving visitors tasty stuff to give him only when sat, but it only takes millisecond for him to finish it then they need to continuously rinse and repeat or he will jump... That results in visitors having to leave after about 10 minutes because the entire chicken has gone...

I have tried putting him out of the room as soon as he jumps and fetching him back after a period of time (supposed to be when calm but calm never happens, just panic), but i don't think that works well in combi with separation anxiety (he hates with a passion been on the opposite side of the door to his humans)...

I have told visitors to ring me an hour before coming so i can walk him to burn off energy to see if that helps, it's not so cleaver on muddy days...

The end result is him been on a leash held by hand but it doesn't do conversation any good with him yowling/wooo'ing/screaming/yelping (he is extremely loud), all whilst lunging to jump up...

Commands don't work, he doesn't hear them over his excitement.

I'm going to persevere with the treat thing tho, get visitors to ignore him whilst continuously dishing out the goodies. They just need to get the timing right because with no delay, he sits nicely. I need to work out the timing of it so they can draw it out a bit longer (hold chicken where he can see it but take longer to give him it and build it up). I did try clicker's but that made him flinch and yelp ( :? not sure why but i didn't think it would work if he was scared of it).
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:28 pm

arianwenarie wrote:What you could try is have the dog drag a leash around the house, only when supervised. Or if you know you're expecting visitors, clip a leash on before the whole chaos ensues and keep the dog near you.

Hmm, I'll have to try this. Max does do a lot of jumping but he is still sort of ;) controllable when people come in as we have a split foyer (steps down to basement, steps up to living area and a baby gate at the top of the steps. So he can't get at anyone until they actually come up through the gate. If they're strangers to him he won't jump, he only jumps at those he knows and likes :? . Only problem with leash is then he thinks he's going for a walk and that may get confusing to him. At this point though I'll try anything and hope it doesn't take too long for him to "get it."
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Tiantai » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:18 pm

I get terrified a lot when I hear about or witness stubborn jumpers leaping into very high places where they're not supposed to be able to reach such as a chandelier or the top of a refrigerator for a small dog. I used to think only cats could do all that stuff but nope, some dogs will put efforts to reach places that you wouldn't want them to if something they really love is there.
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Kootenaywolf » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:53 am

One other option I can think of for the really stubborn jumpers would be to use a shake can. Take a can (pop, beer, whatever) and put about 6 pennies in it. I find most dogs really react to the noise when you give it a good shake. So arm yourself with a shake can AND treats, and when the dog jumps up, give a good shake or two with the can along with a very firm NO and I would suggest taking a few steps forward into them, as well. Be ready with the treats and praise if they keep all four feet on the floor! I've definitely seen this work well for dogs that aren't responding to anything else. Another idea would be a squirt bottle, same kind of set up (as long as the dog doesn't like water!).

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:43 am

Kootenaywolf wrote:One other option I can think of for the really stubborn jumpers would be to use a shake can. Take a can (pop, beer, whatever) and put about 6 pennies in it. I find most dogs really react to the noise when you give it a good shake. So arm yourself with a shake can AND treats, and when the dog jumps up, give a good shake or two with the can along with a very firm NO and I would suggest taking a few steps forward into them, as well. Be ready with the treats and praise if they keep all four feet on the floor! I've definitely seen this work well for dogs that aren't responding to anything else. Another idea would be a squirt bottle, same kind of set up (as long as the dog doesn't like water!).
IMO, I'd recommend the shake can and water bottle only as a last ditch effort (last resort) because the dogs that fright more easily than others, you could create startle aggression in some rare cases. Startle aggression, I've been told, is the worst and most difficult type of aggression to rehabilitate because it's hard to find the triggers and re-create the situation(s) where the dog reacts in aggression - even then, it might still be too random to set up.

Dogs who are confident and bounce back quickly from fright, I'd say go for it as long as you are confident it won't make the situation worse... ;)

@Terri
I'd try the standing on the leash thing again. With some stronger dogs, I have to stand on it with both feet on the leash maximizing the surface area that my feet cover on the leash so they can't get out from under me. If a dog can still pull out from under me, then I have too much dog to handle and someone heftier than me would have to stand on the leash. 8-)

With the treat based thing, it will take tons longer because it's harder for them to make the association that they get treats for not jumping. It makes sense in my mind, but difficult for me to explain... From my understanding, it is easier for a dog to understand a concept when it makes the most sense to them (dog psychology) rather than having to teach them something more complex (something that makes simple sense to us is likely more difficult for them because they can't rationalize).

Not sure if you'd understand what I said just then. lol. :oops: Anyway, if Sam frights from the sound of a clicker, then no, a shake can is a bad idea for him - he might shut down on you and you don't want that. A dog that trusts, respects and works for you is a happy dog. A dog that is afraid and is hesitant to trust you in certain situations can be unpredictable, and in an extremely exaggerated sense...dangerous.

@Dottie
My lab used to get suuuuuuuuper excited whenever she saw the leash. That's when I started making her realize the leash = a job for her. She sleeps in her crate, so in the morning, I make her sit and wait while I put on her leash. She doesn't get to come out of her crate until I give her a release command. That means her crate and her leash = work. When we walk together to the back door for her to go potty, she focuses on me (again, working for me). Once we get to the door, it's more work - she must sit and wait, give me eye contact and wait to be invited outdoors. After she goes potty on leash, she gets her off-leash privileges in the yard while I go back inside to make her food.

When I'm ready to feed her, I call her back from the yard - she knows by now that she will only get 2 chances before I step outside with my angry professor look and make her do a sit/stay to put a leash on her. Again, leash = controlled walk (something she doesn't particularly want to do). She goes through the whole food control routine (again, she works for her food too) - same commands (sit, wait, watch me, eat). After that, she gets to drag a 6ft nylon leash around the house because she still has issues when someone's at the door...and she's been giving my sister some trouble by growling and giving her the stink eye in the evenings.

If Abby misbehaves, I can easily step on the leash she's dragging, stop her movement, pick up the leash by the handle and move her without touching her. My hands and feet are for play and affection; touch = play and affection. Issuing commands and moving her around with the leash = no touch = I'm serious = she knows I'm serious. ;)

After a while, she understood that leash = work. So the nylon leash wasn't as exciting for her. Now, if I take out the leather leash that I use strictly for car rides (outings) and our regular leisure walks, then she gets excited. That's OK...I want her to be excited to go out with me. :) So there's a difference.... nylon leash = work; leather leash = play (with some work).

My dog enjoys working for me despite how I make it sound...she's obedient (mostly) and I'm happy. She has boundaries and rules, she knows her place in the pack and we're peachy. Other than the whole someone at the door issue and some slight resource guarding (of her dang bed), I'd say she's the perfect dog (for me). 8-)

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Kootenaywolf » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:51 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
IMO, I'd recommend the shake can and water bottle only as a last ditch effort (last resort) because the dogs that fright more easily than others, you could create startle aggression in some rare cases. Startle aggression, I've been told, is the worst and most difficult type of aggression to rehabilitate because it's hard to find the triggers and re-create the situation(s) where the dog reacts in aggression - even then, it might still be too random to set up.

Dogs who are confident and bounce back quickly from fright, I'd say go for it as long as you are confident it won't make the situation worse... ;)
I have never seen a shake can cause that kind of reaction, and I have used them various times and seen many other people use them, as well. I understand that it would be theoretically possible, but I have just never heard of it happening. If you have a dog that does react really badly to noises, then yes, maybe not the best idea to use the shake can (but you could still use the water bottle). You can also tone down the intensity of the shake can by just giving it a little jiggle. I have just seen the shake can work really well for jumping up with dogs who really weren't responding well to anything else.

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:10 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Kootenaywolf wrote:One other option I can think of for the really stubborn jumpers would be to use a shake can. Take a can (pop, beer, whatever) and put about 6 pennies in it. I find most dogs really react to the noise when you give it a good shake. So arm yourself with a shake can AND treats, and when the dog jumps up, give a good shake or two with the can along with a very firm NO and I would suggest taking a few steps forward into them, as well. Be ready with the treats and praise if they keep all four feet on the floor! I've definitely seen this work well for dogs that aren't responding to anything else. Another idea would be a squirt bottle, same kind of set up (as long as the dog doesn't like water!).
IMO, I'd recommend the shake can and water bottle only as a last ditch effort (last resort) because the dogs that fright more easily than others, you could create startle aggression in some rare cases. Startle aggression, I've been told, is the worst and most difficult type of aggression to rehabilitate because it's hard to find the triggers and re-create the situation(s) where the dog reacts in aggression - even then, it might still be too random to set up.

Dogs who are confident and bounce back quickly from fright, I'd say go for it as long as you are confident it won't make the situation worse... ;)

@Terri
I'd try the standing on the leash thing again. With some stronger dogs, I have to stand on it with both feet on the leash maximizing the surface area that my feet cover on the leash so they can't get out from under me. If a dog can still pull out from under me, then I have too much dog to handle and someone heftier than me would have to stand on the leash. 8-)

With the treat based thing, it will take tons longer because it's harder for them to make the association that they get treats for not jumping. It makes sense in my mind, but difficult for me to explain... From my understanding, it is easier for a dog to understand a concept when it makes the most sense to them (dog psychology) rather than having to teach them something more complex (something that makes simple sense to us is likely more difficult for them because they can't rationalize).

Not sure if you'd understand what I said just then. lol. :oops: Anyway, if Sam frights from the sound of a clicker, then no, a shake can is a bad idea for him - he might shut down on you and you don't want that. A dog that trusts, respects and works for you is a happy dog. A dog that is afraid and is hesitant to trust you in certain situations can be unpredictable, and in an extremely exaggerated sense...dangerous.

@Dottie
My lab used to get suuuuuuuuper excited whenever she saw the leash. That's when I started making her realize the leash = a job for her. She sleeps in her crate, so in the morning, I make her sit and wait while I put on her leash. She doesn't get to come out of her crate until I give her a release command. That means her crate and her leash = work. When we walk together to the back door for her to go potty, she focuses on me (again, working for me). Once we get to the door, it's more work - she must sit and wait, give me eye contact and wait to be invited outdoors. After she goes potty on leash, she gets her off-leash privileges in the yard while I go back inside to make her food.

When I'm ready to feed her, I call her back from the yard - she knows by now that she will only get 2 chances before I step outside with my angry professor look and make her do a sit/stay to put a leash on her. Again, leash = controlled walk (something she doesn't particularly want to do). She goes through the whole food control routine (again, she works for her food too) - same commands (sit, wait, watch me, eat). After that, she gets to drag a 6ft nylon leash around the house because she still has issues when someone's at the door...and she's been giving my sister some trouble by growling and giving her the stink eye in the evenings.

If Abby misbehaves, I can easily step on the leash she's dragging, stop her movement, pick up the leash by the handle and move her without touching her. My hands and feet are for play and affection; touch = play and affection. Issuing commands and moving her around with the leash = no touch = I'm serious = she knows I'm serious. ;)

After a while, she understood that leash = work. So the nylon leash wasn't as exciting for her. Now, if I take out the leather leash that I use strictly for car rides (outings) and our regular leisure walks, then she gets excited. That's OK...I want her to be excited to go out with me. :) So there's a difference.... nylon leash = work; leather leash = play (with some work).

My dog enjoys working for me despite how I make it sound...she's obedient (mostly) and I'm happy. She has boundaries and rules, she knows her place in the pack and we're peachy. Other than the whole someone at the door issue and some slight resource guarding (of her dang bed), I'd say she's the perfect dog (for me). 8-)
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:12 pm

OMG, I just posted a long post and it didn't show up for some reason!!! :evil: Oh well, I'll try again later.
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:13 pm

Dottie wrote:OMG, I just posted a long post and it didn't show up for some reason!!! :evil: Oh well, I'll try again later.
Aww.. I hate it when that happens. Hopefully, you'll re-post all of it. ;)

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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by Eventide » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:10 pm

Okay, since trying to post a couple weeks ago, I've tried standing on the leash, bumping him as he comes at me, putting my knee up so he can't get close, the jingle noise (which only gets him more excited and he thinks it's a new toy for him to play with :roll:) He really loves noisey, squeeky toys, and doesn't seem to notice how loud the thunder is! As for the leash, this only works if you are actually expecting someone, unless you leash him to your jeans or whatever so that when and if someone comes in the house, you already have control of him. Problem here is it's just not often enough that I can make this happen for him to understand that it means "no. jumping. on. anyone. ever!!!" The only time he seems to really jump is when anyone first comes in the house that he thinks is there for the sole purpose of playing with him, or when we do actually play with him.

He seems to have it all figured out though (as everyone says - way too smart for their own good) that if we tell him no jumping and he settles down for even a minute or two, eventually we will walk past him and he jumps on our backs to remind us he wants to play (I guess(?)).

It's not like training to "sit," or "down," or "stay." This can be done over and over in several sessions a day, whereas the "off" command can only work if and when they jump on something. Am I getting this across correctly, as sometimes it's just difficult to explain, but "intermittent" training (I call it) isn't doing it -- and he continues to grow and is getting way to big for most people to control. All anyone wants to do is yell at him, push at him, and run (of course this is, in his opinion, a really fun game!) :( ).

So, now what??!! We need help -- lot's of help. :? :| :(
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TerriHolt
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:16 am

Yes, you make sense... I have lack of people wanting to come or having the time (they don't really need the hassle of a 42kg dog after a long day at work and days off are for relaxing). My mum has stopped coming round because he will not leave her alone (she made the mistake of bringing him presents then he was smaller so he mugs her and her bag every time she comes... he never forgot and the last time he got something was over a year ago)...

But, i would 100% take jumping up over Sa any day... That we are making no progress at all with...
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Re: Stubborn jumper!

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:17 am

Dottie,

When you say you've bumped him, do you mean it's as literally, just bumping him or actually walking into him so that he has to give up his space? What you could also try is have him drag a leash around the house to help control him - it's easier to catch him by stepping on the trailing leash than trying to grab a oh-too-fast dog. ;)

The next thing I'd suggest is the "out" command. It sort of looks like the portion of this video where you see the trainer tell the dog to "back up". She has her arm out, she looks at the dog and tells him to "back up". But you would say "out" in a calm conversation tone (don't raise your voice). Your arm should be perpendicular to your body with the type of body language the trainer is showing in the video. Walk into your dog to move him/her if necessary and make him/her move at least 8-10 feet away from where the problem happened. No need to make the dog lay down. Once the dog turns around to leave the area, you're done correcting and do not look at your dog. If your dog comes back into the area before you're ready to call them back, then repeat the out command. If you notice your dog sniffing around while approaching, then they're politely asking if they can come back into the social circle. In the dog world, the worst punishment is to have them leave the social circle...that's what the out command does.

If you have one of those dogs that just take a different path into the same area, then you could go get a bamboo stick and use that as an extension of your arm -- it makes you look bigger and more scary. ;) But no, the bamboo stick is not for physical punishment...ever. :p Idea behind the bamboo stick is the same concept as sheep herders and their staffs. :)

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