Kayo Inu

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Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:55 pm

So it is official, even if the first litter was by mistake of a careless breeder. I made a club page today. Not much on it. Please let me know anything that maybe good to put on? I will be putting data base page (the best I can) of all dogs entered in as foundation and all puppies born. I have the name set up with a DNA tracking lab that will hold all records showing puppies to their Dam and Sire so that no one can question who they came from or if their dog is a part of this breed. I would love feed back as this is a first for me.

http://www.kayoinu.com/

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:12 am

Will have a look and let you know if I can think of anything.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:22 am

Taz wrote:Will have a look and let you know if I can think of anything.
Thank you very much. I'm adding a data base the best the page will let me right now. I'll try and making my own code or get some to when there are more dogs.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:54 am

The only thing I've spotted is the temperament description on the breed standard.
Parts are a direct copy of the Csv one, obviously so as well. Infact, the standard is a mixture of bits from the Csv and Anglo wolfdog one, but I would know that, I was one of the people who helped in the creation of the one awd breeders use, and I'm a fan of the Csv.

Its fine if thats what the aim is however, I would suggest you paraphrase where possible, rather than simply copy.

Firstly, it doesn't look professional
Secondly, it detracts from the individuality of the new breed. If you get what I mean.

Jmo of course and I'm not trying to be over critical or harsh, just trying to help.

By the way, would be interested to know if there's a purpose for the breed other than the look, for example work/sport dogs. Also, are there any health tests for breeding dogs, what are the foundation stock comprised of? Etc.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:19 am

Taz wrote:The only thing I've spotted is the temperament description on the breed standard.
Parts are a direct copy of the Csv one, obviously so as well. Infact, the standard is a mixture of bits from the Csv and Anglo wolfdog one, but I would know that, I was one of the people who helped in the creation of the one awd breeders use, and I'm a fan of the Csv.

Its fine if thats what the aim is however, I would suggest you paraphrase where possible, rather than simply copy.

Firstly, it doesn't look professional
Secondly, it detracts from the individuality of the new breed. If you get what I mean.

Jmo of course and I'm not trying to be over critical or harsh, just trying to help.

By the way, would be interested to know if there's a purpose for the breed other than the look, for example work/sport dogs. Also, are there any health tests for breeding dogs, what are the foundation stock comprised of? Etc.
Thank you,

I didn't know it went at all with the Anglo the Czech I did as that was the best and for the most part what I was looking, just with a bit more. I went over it a lot with others and changed a few things. But I will re-do again if it's really that noticeable. But I will be having photos soon to go with the standard. I have a third party making a normal standing sculpture and their going to drawl what that doesn't cover.

I'm going for health first, but I would like to get good working dogs. For drug detection, protection, tracking, all a round patrol dogs.

Heath testing yes, breeding dogs Hips (good or better), elbows (normal or better), DM, any test that an out cross breed should get will be done for both dogs (even if the breed isn't know for it). Also all dog will have this done

http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/animal_genetics.html

They will all have a DNA pawl print as well.

http://www.mmigenomics.com/products2b.html

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:28 am

Oh a puppy from Sora's litter, is 100% going into Protection work. He has been started on a puppy sleeve already and loves carrying around Kong (that are to big for him) and tennis balls. They may put him on drug work as well.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:17 am

If you are so into protection work then why not breed pure Shepherds or Csv?? These dogs you are breeding now are NOT good for protection work. Other then that I will keep my mouth shut because I have nothing good to say about this sorry :roll:

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:09 am

Rahne wrote:I'm going for health first, but I would like to get good working dogs. For drug detection, protection, tracking, all a round patrol dogs.
Rahne wrote:If you are so into protection work then why not breed pure Shepherds or Csv?? These dogs you are breeding now are NOT good for protection work. Other then that I will keep my mouth shut because I have nothing good to say about this sorry :roll:
i was thinking along the same lines... shepherds and good protection dog but you would have to be careful to just breed in the protection and not aggressiveness... breeding tam-like-dogs will not work for that... and the pups you are thinking about for oundation dogs are the pups your dog has just had right? there is another problem...

as for on your website, i don't know much about that so i can't comment... :D
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:15 am

Ok thanks for answering that.

Tbh, id just reword the temperament bit, the rest is not so obvious.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Katlin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:20 am

"A dog with colors other than those in the standard must be disqualified."

So 2 of your pups don't qualify for the standard. 3/4 of the standard is directly plagiarized without giving credit and the name if the breed is yet another mis-nomer. There is no japanese dog breed in your dogs' heritage (that's recent) so why use Inu?

I'm with Rahne...I don't really have anything good to say about this at all.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:50 am

Can you tell me why this type of dog isn't good for protection work? Do you really know what your looking for with a patrol dog? GSD are very rarely used now in this area. The most used dog for patrol is the Belgian Malinois, or Dutch Shepard.

Why the name? Would you rather I use the Tamaskan name for them? Who came up with that name and why? Inu isn't the only Japanese word in the name and it really doesn't matter, any dog in japan would be an Inu as it means Dog, not Japanese Dog.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:53 pm

i didn't specify GSD, i said shepherd which generally covers them all, GSD's are still widely used and are the main guard dogs in the uk, i can't speak for anywhere else...

as for the name, using inu for something that has no (recent) Japanese heritage is a tad misleading (misrepresentation annoys the wolf-dog community, who says it doesn't annoy Japanese?... just a theory). people usually chose names that are linked to the breed, theme of the breed or history of the breed not just pluck something out of thin air (or in your case, do a poll, in which case, you didn't even name your breed...)
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:11 pm

Hiwatari wrote:Can you tell me why this type of dog isn't good for protection work? Do you really know what your looking for with a patrol dog? GSD are very rarely used now in this area. The most used dog for patrol is the Belgian Malinois, or Dutch Shepard.
You got to be kidding right? :shock: Don't tell me you don't know the differences between Wolf-Lookalikes and the Belgian/Dutch Shepherds in temperament..
If you can't even answer this question yourself then you are certainly not suitable to breed these kind of dogs in my opinion.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by skyedream » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:41 pm

If you were to speak to experienced breeders of protection dogs and breeders of tamaskan and NAID (which is what you have now) and they told you that what you are trying to achieve is a waste of time and money and won't work then would you still go ahead with it?

I don't mean to discourage you but I just think that the dogs you have now don't make a great basis for the type of dog you want to create. And then of course there's the accidental inbreeding thing...
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Katlin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Hiwatari wrote:Can you tell me why this type of dog isn't good for protection work? Do you really know what your looking for with a patrol dog? GSD are very rarely used now in this area. The most used dog for patrol is the Belgian Malinois, or Dutch Shepard.
:o Have you not read anything about these dogs? Even I can tell you that they were never meant for guard work! You are, figuratively, trying to breed a chihuahua to do a mastiff's work, it doesn't work like that! You can't just decide what the dog is good for!
Hiwatari wrote:Why the name? Would you rather I use the Tamaskan name for them? Who came up with that name and why? Inu isn't the only Japanese word in the name and it really doesn't matter, any dog in japan would be an Inu as it means Dog, not Japanese Dog.
Inu is a Japanese word. You chose a bunch of random words and threw them together to "make a breed". Your dogs are not tamaskan, they are hardly even part tamaskan so no that name should not be used. What should be used is mutt, which is exactly what they are.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:17 pm

As far as I'm concerned, if I have to accept australian and English shepherd, as names for breeds created in America, than I can accept another breed with a name not relating to the country of origin. It makes about as much sence tbh.

I may be wrong, but is the aim not to create a dog with the look of the wolf, but the temperament of the bsd or dsd? Is that not what some on this forum have suggested? Using belgian or Dutch shepherds, to add something to the look, and provide a bit more working ability? I'm sure it's been mentioned.

And also using non standard colours, I'm thinking of the solid white pup here. I'd say for breeds in development, genetic diversity, health and temperament are more inportant than the correct colour.

Not trying to start an argument, just making comment as an outsider, as I dont own a wolf lookalike dog, of any type.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:55 pm

Taz wrote: I may be wrong, but is the aim not to create a dog with the look of the wolf, but the temperament of the bsd or dsd? Is that not what some on this forum have suggested? Using belgian or Dutch shepherds, to add something to the look, and provide a bit more working ability? I'm sure it's been mentioned.
No certainly not! Yes, we would like a bit more 'will to please' but we could also add a border collie for that matter. The Belgian Shepherd will have more to add in terms of looks though. I also mentioned adding a long haired Belgian Shepherd or a White Swiss Shepherd and NOT a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd DUE to their temperament. Most lines of Malinois and Dutch Shepherd are bred specifically for 'protection' work.. dogs that have to be kept in kennels, can be very aggressive and dominant towards other dogs, have low 'bite thresholds', are quite 'nervous', very high energy levels etc.

Dogs that are bred specifically for this kind of work NEED a certain 'sharpness', and that's not the kind of dog that the wolf-lookalike is supposed to be in my opinion.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Taz » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:21 pm

Fair enough, I just recalled it being mentioned here.

The term wolf lookalike covers something like 10 subtypes being bred independently right now. If you dont want that combo of looks and drive? That's fine. However, if there's a demand for it, someone will do it.

IMO, for the tam id prefer to see a well bred Berger swis being introduced.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:23 am

No certainly not! Yes, we would like a bit more 'will to please' but we could also add a border collie for that matter. The Belgian Shepherd will have more to add in terms of looks though. I also mentioned adding a long haired Belgian Shepherd or a White Swiss Shepherd and NOT a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd DUE to their temperament. Most lines of Malinois and Dutch Shepherd are bred specifically for 'protection' work.. dogs that have to be kept in kennels, can be very aggressive and dominant towards other dogs, have low 'bite thresholds', are quite 'nervous', very high energy levels etc.

Dogs that are bred specifically for this kind of work NEED a certain 'sharpness', and that's not the kind of dog that the wolf-lookalike is supposed to be in my opinion.
I would love to know how many Malinois and Dutch Shepherds you have seen and/or trained in person. I train patrol, protection, tracking, drug, and just obedience dogs. I know all the drives and how to work them. You don't need sharp dogs, you need a dog with drives. My NAID X Aatu has everything but a hunt drive to be a full service patrol dog. We just release a Malinois and Dutch that are full patrol dogs and are great house dogs,love kids and do just find with other pets.

Here is a photo of Castor (the Dutch)
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn ... 8877_n.jpg

And here is Xantos (Malinois)
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn ... 0155_n.jpg

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:30 am

Oh and here is a video of a so called sharp breed being worked by little kids in drug detection. He was sold to Stone Park Police Department as a Drug detection and handler protection dog.



So please tell me what makes my dogs unable to do this? Are they lacking all the drives to work and please their handler? If so then I must have mutant dogs as I have three girls I can easily put on Drug and tracking, two that can easily go into protection as well.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:45 am

I just changed around the Data base. I gain the ok to place the photo of dogs I do not own.

http://www.kayoinu.com/data-base.html

As always let me know what you think of it and please tell me if things could be easier or better and how. I'm always up for ideas. I hate being a one man... (well women) show. But as I'm sure a lot of people here know. It doesn't matter how much help you have. In the end it's always left up to you. :roll: I've grown use to it sadly. But everyone here even if yelling at me is really helping out a lot.

Thanks :D

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rhokk » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:25 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to even consider calling a subset of dogs a new breed, don't you have to have a sizable 'original generation' in addition to a standard which can be reproduced by any inbreeding of that generation?

This sounds like a mutt with a fancy name. If you want any sort of credibility, show us your experience as a breeder. Show us that this breed is the result of a well thought out standard with good stock from which it is derived. It might be coincidental that an accidental outbreeding with a shiba inu or whatever looks nice, but that is all it is: coincidence.

Just thought I'd also point out that the breed standard is a copy/paste of the one on the TDR's website (http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/The%20Standard/standard.htm) with a few rewordings sprinkled here and there.

I'm not trying to be mean, but in my 20 years of living I've seen this sort of thing often enough (I'm the guy who ends up taking care of the puppies that get dumped at the shelter). If you really want the Kayo Inu to become a breed it WILL be a lifetime endeavor and it WILL take lots of blood, sweat, and tears to accomplish.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by HiTenshi16 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:37 pm

I noticed that your first generation lists the sire as unknown, but I thought you knew who the father was?
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:27 pm

Rhokk wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to even consider calling a subset of dogs a new breed, don't you have to have a sizable 'original generation' in addition to a standard which can be reproduced by any inbreeding of that generation?

This sounds like a mutt with a fancy name. If you want any sort of credibility, show us your experience as a breeder. Show us that this breed is the result of a well thought out standard with good stock from which it is derived. It might be coincidental that an accidental outbreeding with a shiba inu or whatever looks nice, but that is all it is: coincidence.

Just thought I'd also point out that the breed standard is a copy/paste of the one on the TDR's website (http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/The%20Standard/standard.htm) with a few rewordings sprinkled here and there.

I'm not trying to be mean, but in my 20 years of living I've seen this sort of thing often enough (I'm the guy who ends up taking care of the puppies that get dumped at the shelter). If you really want the Kayo Inu to become a breed it WILL be a lifetime endeavor and it WILL take lots of blood, sweat, and tears to accomplish.
I can tell you it isn't a copy paste from the Tamaskan unless they copy and pasted the Czech as I used that as basic and changed some things in it. That was already clearly gone over before hand in this. As for years of work. I know this, but what harm is it to start a data base now? Other then people knowing just where the puppy comes from? I have no wish to have people questioning their papers.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:28 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:I noticed that your first generation lists the sire as unknown, but I thought you knew who the father was?
We know who could be the father. We're waiting on the DNA test to come back to know who it really is. We can guess by how the litter looks that it was Chuck. But I'm not putting a guess there to maybe have to change it. So once their DNA test are in, the sire will be put down.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:06 pm

Hiwatari wrote:
HiTenshi16 wrote:I noticed that your first generation lists the sire as unknown, but I thought you knew who the father was?
We know who could be the father. We're waiting on the DNA test to come back to know who it really is. We can guess by how the litter looks that it was Chuck. But I'm not putting a guess there to maybe have to change it. So once their DNA test are in, the sire will be put down.
You took DNA samples from all the puppies, right? Some of the pups could have one sire, the rest could have another sire...
That's why each individual puppy needs to be DNA profiled to verify parentage.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rhokk » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:12 am

Hiwatari wrote: I can tell you it isn't a copy paste from the Tamaskan unless they copy and pasted the Czech as I used that as basic and changed some things in it.
My apologies. I found the documents you're talking about on the AKC page for Czech Wolfdogs.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:51 am

Sylvaen wrote:
Hiwatari wrote:
HiTenshi16 wrote:I noticed that your first generation lists the sire as unknown, but I thought you knew who the father was?
We know who could be the father. We're waiting on the DNA test to come back to know who it really is. We can guess by how the litter looks that it was Chuck. But I'm not putting a guess there to maybe have to change it. So once their DNA test are in, the sire will be put down.
You took DNA samples from all the puppies, right? Some of the pups could have one sire, the rest could have another sire...
That's why each individual puppy needs to be DNA profiled to verify parentage.
Yes I took one for each puppy, but the DNA place said to only do one of the males and if they all don't go to that one they will send for another male sample.
My apologies. I found the documents you're talking about on the AKC page for Czech Wolfdogs.
No worries, just thought I would point out where the base of it really came from, I think for the most part their all some how a like as everyone's end aim if that kind of look. But I'm not to worried about them looking to standards yet as I want a wide and healthy gene pool first. But if a little aim for looks off the standards isn't going to hurt the main goal.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:57 am

Hiwatari wrote: Yes I took one for each puppy, but the DNA place said to only do one of the males and if they all don't go to that one they will send for another male sample.
You need to have them all done. It could be possible that just ONE of the pups is from a different sire..

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:53 pm

Rahne wrote:
Hiwatari wrote: Yes I took one for each puppy, but the DNA place said to only do one of the males and if they all don't go to that one they will send for another male sample.
You need to have them all done. It could be possible that just ONE of the pups is from a different sire..
Yes but the DNA company told me to just send one sire and if any don't match they will send for the next one to test with. I'm not the one wishing to only send one it. The company told me to do it this way over sending in three maybe sire samples for them to test to all of them at once. I would guess it's to keep the price down as each DNA test is $55 and I have to send in 8, so if they all match up to one male, I would put out an extra $110 that wasn't needed. Just my guess on their reasons. So I'm going with the male that we had planned to use for our breed as he has to get DNA and profiled anyway. If needed then I'm more then happy to get and send in the other two males (owner is willing as well).

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Booma » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:09 am

Hmm I think there's been a confusion here lol. Hiwatari, I think you are saying you sent in a sample from every pup and a sample of from one male who could be the sire. ?
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:44 am

Kylievr wrote:Hmm I think there's been a confusion here lol. Hiwatari, I think you are saying you sent in a sample from every pup and a sample of from one male who could be the sire. ?
Yes, and if they don't all match to that sire (or any of them) the DNA place will send out a new test and request a sample from another maybe sire free of charge over wending both in and paying for them.

Update on this, I checked the papers I got with Sora and it has Riley's DNA test linking him to the two Tamaskan's he's out of. The DNA lab I'm using is the same so if they don't all match their going to check against the data they have on Riley already to see if he is the Sire. :D

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:33 am

Ahh ok, I indeed misunderstood then. The way you are doing it now should be fine :)

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:25 pm

Rahne wrote:Ahh ok, I indeed misunderstood then. The way you are doing it now should be fine :)
No worries, I seem to not clearly say things anyway. And thanks, I hope they are all out of one, it would be less "opps" matings that happened to Sora. Oh if anyone is wondering Sora is doing great, her only down side is that she's fearful of others duo to lack of training as a puppy. But I'm working on it by taking her out and letting her meet people on her own. She's slowly getting better.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by issylupus » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:28 pm

Maybe I'm not getting the point here... But you are trying to create a new breed from the one female dog and her litter of pup's, BUT you dont know who the sire of these pup's is ???
That sounds a bit irrasponcable to have the bitch left in a situation where dog's have got to her but you were not there to watch her..
It dose'nt sound a very profesional way to be going about thing's....

...but that is just my oppinion. If I was to mate my dog I would want to witness it to be absolutley sure that the mating was as stress free and safe as possible for my dog...and that the sire was carefully chosen for her...

I also dont see the point in these dog's. As nice as they may be, what is " New" that other well established breeds don't already offer ?????
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Booma » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:41 pm

I believe the bitch was already pregnant when Hiwatari got her (?)
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Nino » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:46 pm

issylupus wrote:Maybe I'm not getting the point here... But you are trying to create a new breed from the one female dog and her litter of pup's, BUT you dont know who the sire of these pup's is ???
That sounds a bit irrasponcable to have the bitch left in a situation where dog's have got to her but you were not there to watch her..
It dose'nt sound a very profesional way to be going about thing's....

...but that is just my oppinion. If I was to mate my dog I would want to witness it to be absolutley sure that the mating was as stress free and safe as possible for my dog...and that the sire was carefully chosen for her...

I also dont see the point in these dog's. As nice as they may be, what is " New" that other well established breeds don't already offer ?????
She's testing who the father is atm.
there are 3 possible fathers as far as I have understood.. the DNA company have asked for just 1 sample (the most likely) and if any of the pups (or all) doesn't fit his profile they will ask for the next sample, probably to save money from doing all 3 males at once..
>> Nino <<
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by issylupus » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:58 pm

Nino wrote:
issylupus wrote:Maybe I'm not getting the point here... But you are trying to create a new breed from the one female dog and her litter of pup's, BUT you dont know who the sire of these pup's is ???
That sounds a bit irrasponcable to have the bitch left in a situation where dog's have got to her but you were not there to watch her..
It dose'nt sound a very profesional way to be going about thing's....

...but that is just my oppinion. If I was to mate my dog I would want to witness it to be absolutley sure that the mating was as stress free and safe as possible for my dog...and that the sire was carefully chosen for her...

I also dont see the point in these dog's. As nice as they may be, what is " New" that other well established breeds don't already offer ?????
She's testing who the father is atm.
there are 3 possible fathers as far as I have understood.. the DNA company have asked for just 1 sample (the most likely) and if any of the pups (or all) doesn't fit his profile they will ask for the next sample, probably to save money from doing all 3 males at once..
Poor Bitch.. So she was left unattended while in season with THREE dog's having acess to her ????
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:04 pm

issylupus wrote:
Nino wrote:
issylupus wrote:Maybe I'm not getting the point here... But you are trying to create a new breed from the one female dog and her litter of pup's, BUT you dont know who the sire of these pup's is ???
That sounds a bit irrasponcable to have the bitch left in a situation where dog's have got to her but you were not there to watch her..
It dose'nt sound a very profesional way to be going about thing's....

...but that is just my oppinion. If I was to mate my dog I would want to witness it to be absolutley sure that the mating was as stress free and safe as possible for my dog...and that the sire was carefully chosen for her...

I also dont see the point in these dog's. As nice as they may be, what is " New" that other well established breeds don't already offer ?????
She's testing who the father is atm.
there are 3 possible fathers as far as I have understood.. the DNA company have asked for just 1 sample (the most likely) and if any of the pups (or all) doesn't fit his profile they will ask for the next sample, probably to save money from doing all 3 males at once..
Poor Bitch.. So she was left unattended while in season with THREE dog's having acess to her ????
Yes, and the males that had access to her were her father and brothers :evil:
This happened with the previous owner though, Hiwatari got her while pregnant and wasn't told any of this.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by issylupus » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:55 pm

Dear God... it just get's worse...and somehow this seams a good way to start a " New Breed " ????
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:58 pm

Rahne wrote:Yes, and the males that had access to her were her father and brothers :evil:
This happened with the previous owner though, Hiwatari got her while pregnant and wasn't told any of this.
Yep... and surprise surprise Sora's sire is Riley - the famous Piebald Tamaskan from Takari's first litter...
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:46 pm

issylupus wrote:Dear God... it just get's worse...and somehow this seams a good way to start a " New Breed " ????

It isn't and not how I plan to start at all. I wasn't ready for a litter nor was she. But it was have the puppies or gas them. I'm sure everyone here agree with me to keep them.

As for starting the breed, really not anything I ever planed to do, more so with a litter of this kind. However I feel that with me getting Sora to be a foundation Dam if she passes her test. Bad litter or not they should be able to be part of the breed. How much truth would I be giving if I just marked them off as nothing and if Sora has a nice planed out litter, calling them the first? Everyone who got a puppy knows what is going on and that their pets only. I don't know anyone who would say every puppy in every litter in every "Breed" is breed-able?

Mistake and unwanted litters would still be part of the breed.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by skyedream » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:01 pm

But why do you have to use any of this litter as part of your breeding program? I'm sure other breeds used foundation dogs that had had previous litters before the breeds beginnings. Your new breed can begin when you are ready and when the right dogs come along. Beginning your breed with an accidental mating is not a good start! Can't your first litter just be pet-home only mutts?

I can see how determined you are to follow through with your plans and I know I should just keep out of it... :? But it's very hard to not have an opinion online (and keep banging on about it!) :D
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:56 pm

skyedream wrote:But why do you have to use any of this litter as part of your breeding program? I'm sure other breeds used foundation dogs that had had previous litters before the breeds beginnings. Your new breed can begin when you are ready and when the right dogs come along. Beginning your breed with an accidental mating is not a good start! Can't your first litter just be pet-home only mutts?

I can see how determined you are to follow through with your plans and I know I should just keep out of it... :? But it's very hard to not have an opinion online (and keep banging on about it!) :D
I thought about it, I really see all the dogs as Mutt's right now. But I also feel it is best to have them as part of it, mistake or not. I feel everything happens for a reason. Plus I'm looking out for the puppy owners. Even thou their not wolfdogs, a few of the puppies look the part. The owners need something more them mutt on the agreement in areas where you can not own a wolfdog to show their not. I don't wish for any puppy to be put down because their mistaken for a wolf and duo to not having papers to show their not.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:08 am

If I may offer my opinion on this, I do not agree with keeping a puppy from this litter to be used as your foundation stock, Hiwatari. The only reason is because the possible father of this litter are all very closely related: father or full brother.

Doing a 5-gen COI calculation, the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) with Riley as the father of the puppies, it is 25%. AVK is 72.58% - this means the remaining percentage out of 100% are the actual unique dogs in the 5-gen pedigree. That's quite high... Of course, these numbers will be lower if we do the same calculation (5-gen) with a full brother: COI = 25%, AVK = 51.61%.

However, there's obviously no issue with keeping Sora as a foundation bitch. You don't want to "hide" this litter and pretend it didn't happen during the foundation of your new breed, I get it. So you can keep it in the database for the public to see and document the litter. But to use an inbred puppy from this litter as your foundation stock even if the mating will be a 100% outcross, there will be high controversy and IMHO, will hurt your reputation and the breed's reputation - knowing some people out there (speaking in general), they will try their hardest to discredit you.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Katlin » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:56 am

My question is: WHY do you need to start a new "breed" to begin with?!
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:19 am

Katlin wrote:My question is: WHY do you need to start a new "breed" to begin with?!
Good point... if Sora is out of Riley x NAID, if she has good health test results (hip score, DM free, etc) - wouldn't it make more sense to apply to have her registered as a Foundation Dog with the TDR. It seems more logical to work towards improving existing breeds-in-progress, rather than create a whole new one from scratch.
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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:58 am

Sylvaen wrote:
Katlin wrote:My question is: WHY do you need to start a new "breed" to begin with?!
Good point... if Sora is out of Riley x NAID, if she has good health test results (hip score, DM free, etc) - wouldn't it make more sense to apply to have her registered as a Foundation Dog with the TDR. It seems more logical to work towards improving existing breeds-in-progress, rather than create a whole new one from scratch.
I think this could be a good idea :)

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:32 pm

arianwenarie wrote:If I may offer my opinion on this, I do not agree with keeping a puppy from this litter to be used as your foundation stock, Hiwatari. The only reason is because the possible father of this litter are all very closely related: father or full brother.

Doing a 5-gen COI calculation, the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) with Riley as the father of the puppies, it is 25%. AVK is 72.58% - this means the remaining percentage out of 100% are the actual unique dogs in the 5-gen pedigree. That's quite high... Of course, these numbers will be lower if we do the same calculation (5-gen) with a full brother: COI = 25%, AVK = 51.61%.

However, there's obviously no issue with keeping Sora as a foundation bitch. You don't want to "hide" this litter and pretend it didn't happen during the foundation of your new breed, I get it. So you can keep it in the database for the public to see and document the litter. But to use an inbred puppy from this litter as your foundation stock even if the mating will be a 100% outcross, there will be high controversy and IMHO, will hurt your reputation and the breed's reputation - knowing some people out there (speaking in general), they will try their hardest to discredit you.
Ok I'm only leaving this up for a bit as it's still unsure. But if Satoshi is out of Sora's fully brother Chuck, this would be his family tree. http://www.kayoinu.com/satoshi.html
AZDehlin wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Katlin wrote:My question is: WHY do you need to start a new "breed" to begin with?!
Good point... if Sora is out of Riley x NAID, if she has good health test results (hip score, DM free, etc) - wouldn't it make more sense to apply to have her registered as a Foundation Dog with the TDR. It seems more logical to work towards improving existing breeds-in-progress, rather than create a whole new one from scratch.
I think this could be a good idea :)
As nice as it sounds, I would rather just stay friends over going. Because a lot of dogs that I look into I know the TDR would say no to, as well as the fact that the TDR isn't looking to get working K-9. I would like a more working type of dog, none of the wolf look a likes have this any more. Even the ones bred in the start to be working dogs no longer are seen or used for it.

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Re: Kayo Inu

Post by Hiwatari » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:29 pm

But with that, I wouldn't be against helping the TDR if you need it. I just do not wish to join as a TDR breeder. I will happily work out stud, trades, or selling puppies to the TDR to help the Tamaskan breed as you guys help me a lot on info.

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