Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

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Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:30 pm

I just noticed this, although I'm a bit skeptic about the crossbreed in the photo being a wolador unless of course if it happens to be a low-content wolfdog. Although I have heard that some breeders have used labradors to cross with captive wolves in an attempt to create a wolfdog who behaves more like a dog since crossing wolves with the northern arctic breeds, who are already somewhat wolf-like on their own, often results with mid-contents still behaving more like wolves.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/w/wolador.htm
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:04 am

I don't see any wolf in that dog, looks like a misrepresentation to me. You also can not trust everything on the dogbreedinfo site, they tend to have some incorrect information on there. Example, it says the Tamaskan is registered with APRI (American Pet Registry, Inc.), which it is not, but I'm sure "you know who" registered his dogs on there to make it look so.
Just read this person's experience with APRI http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog ... y-inc.html

I emailed dogbreedinfo once before to have updated information on the Tamaskan breed, and that they remove one of there listed "breeders" and the APRI registry. They updated some of it, but did not remove what was asked.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Nimwey » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:04 am

Doesn't look wolf-like to me either, but nor can I find any wolf at all in the Wolf-Poodle crosses, and they're supposed to be 50%. (So their may be some wolf in that dog, I don't know.)
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:54 am

Quite possibly a 'huskador'... There is definitely something other than lab but I don't see wolf...
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Valravn » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 pm

I see nothing that says "wolf" in this dog.
The wolf x poodles have the soft ears and poodle hair that throws you, but if you ignore that you can see the wolf build in them.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by akaye531 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:58 pm

Why on earth would someone mix a lab or poodle with a wolf?

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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Katlin » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:46 pm

akaye531 wrote:Why on earth would someone mix a lab or poodle with a wolf?
That's what I was thinking!
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:42 pm

Katlin wrote:
akaye531 wrote:Why on earth would someone mix a lab or poodle with a wolf?
That's what I was thinking!
Hell would I know. Other than that some people THINK using a lab would create more dog-like traits in the wolfdog, I personally find it pointless to even bother mixing a wolf with ANY dog now when we already HAVE lots of wolfdogs everywhere
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tatzel » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:29 am

akaye531 wrote:Why on earth would someone mix a lab or poodle with a wolf?
It was for reasearch. Erik Zimen did these so so many years ago, because supposely poodles are the dogs which are most tuned into humans. He wanted to determine how the offspring of a poodle and a wolf would behave.
He also mixed poodles with jackals and coyotes, to find out that they looked and behaved nothing like dogs. It was all part of the whole big "figuring out where dogs originated from" thing. Because it wasn't always known and given that they all descended from the grey wolf.

Surprisingly, while the F1 offspring looked completly uniform (as you can see in the posted picture), the F2 offspring showed a large varity of looks, coat and fur color, showing some which were neither seen in the wolf nor the poole before, suggesting that the wolf and the dog have the same gentical make up.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:11 am

Tatzel wrote:
akaye531 wrote:Why on earth would someone mix a lab or poodle with a wolf?
It was for reasearch. Erik Zimen did these so so many years ago, because supposely poodles are the dogs which are most tuned into humans. He wanted to determine how the offspring of a poodle and a wolf would behave.
He also mixed poodles with jackals and coyotes, to find out that they looked and behaved nothing like dogs. It was all part of the whole big "figuring out where dogs originated from" thing. Because it wasn't always known and given that they all descended from the grey wolf.

Surprisingly, while the F1 offspring looked completly uniform (as you can see in the posted picture), the F2 offspring showed a large varity of looks, coat and fur color, showing some which were neither seen in the wolf nor the poole before, suggesting that the wolf and the dog have the same gentical make up.
Off topic but now that you've brought that up it reminds me; I also read that the 3rd generation Poodle/Coydogs and Jackdogs showed a reduced fertility, communication problems, and from this they concluded that the dog (and Grey wolf since dogs and Grey wolves are the same species) is a separate species from the latter two (Golden Jackals and Coyotes) and YET there are still some debating with this result today questioning IF the reduced fertility might have been due to 2 generations of possible inbreeding OR there was some unwanted genetic disorders the dogs were carrying that got passed down to the F3 hybrids rather than the fact that they crossed different species with each others.

Here in North America, the Coywolves in the Eastern to Atlantic Canada (Canis lupus lycaon) who are descended from both Grey wolves and Coyote hybrids (which occurred in the aftermath of the exterminations of the Grey wolves and a population of Pre-Columbian coyotes in the East thus resulting with both species mating instead of fighting) have been interbreeding within their populations for hundreds of years and some of the Coywolves have even backcrossed with parent Grey wolf populations (particularly the Great Plains wolves native to Buffalo) and others with the western coyotes and the resulting offsprings are STILL fertile. So obviously the reduced fertility with the Coydogs and Jackdogs might have been caused by something else and not due to them being different species. It's possible that there might have been some "bad genes" within those poodles such as SA being carried in the dogs that got transferred down to the hybrids.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tatzel » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:07 pm

Thanks for adding that, Lucas!
Yes, the coyote/dog and jackal/dog crosses were less fertil and also showed communiation untypical for dogs (making untypical sounds/noises etc)

Although I heard that sighthounds (podencos, pharaoh hounds, whippets etc) might stem off of jackals originally. I always thought their behaviour is somewhat distinct from other dogs, but that might be just me?
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by darazan » Fri May 03, 2013 1:28 am

On the topic of wolfdogs, I have a friend who claims that his mother owns a wolf x husky/mal/GSD mix, however he says that the wolfdog has soft ears. When I tried to say that didn't make sense, since none of the dogs breeds claimed have those kind of ears, I was refuted with a "soft ears are a sign of domestication" argument. While I understand that the experimentation with selective breeding of wild foxes for tameness in Russia observed that over generations, the animals started developing soft ears, that argument just didn't make sense to me in this situation. I really feel like they're claiming it's a wolfdog due to its behavior and aggression. However, I haven't seen the dog yet, so I can't be sure. Does anyone know about any cases of a wolfdog coming out with soft ears even when neither parent has them?
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Sat May 04, 2013 4:01 am

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by soft ear but I'll assume that you're talking about floppy ears.

If a wolfdog has softears, it's either a low-content to lower-mid content whose parents were the result of breeding a wolf with a soft-eared breed on both sides or if you directly bred a pure Grey wolf to any floppy-eared breed. Like say you breed one wolf with a golden retriever and another with a weimaraner. Although there's still a chance that the erect wolf-ear will still be dominant and the 50% pups APPEAR to have the erect wolf-ears (some might look a bit doggyish). However, you later on breed one of those Golden Retriever/Grey wolf pups with one of the Wolf/weimaraner hybrids assuming that both F1 parents kept the erect ears then there is a good chance that one of F2 pups will have a partially floppy ear or some soft ear standing erect. It depends on how much of the grandparent dogs is in the grandpuppies.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by darazan » Sat May 04, 2013 5:17 am

Tiantai wrote:I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by soft ear but I'll assume that you're talking about floppy ears.

If a wolfdog has softears, it's either a low-content to lower-mid content whose parents were the result of breeding a wolf with a soft-eared breed on both sides or if you directly bred a pure Grey wolf to any floppy-eared breed. Like say you breed one wolf with a golden retriever and another with a weimaraner. Although there's still a chance that the erect wolf-ear will still be dominant and the 50% pups APPEAR to have the erect wolf-ears (some might look a bit doggyish). However, you later on breed one of those Golden Retriever/Grey wolf pups with one of the Wolf/weimaraner hybrids assuming that both F1 parents kept the erect ears then there is a good chance that one of F2 pups will have a partially floppy ear or some soft ear standing erect. It depends on how much of the grandparent dogs is in the grandpuppies.
yes, I mean floppy ears. My friend says it's 1/2 wolf with the other 1/2 being a husky/mal/GSD mix. I just don't see how it can have floppy ears at all if that's actually what it is.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Mon May 06, 2013 4:11 pm

There's too much lies in the wolfdog world so I don't listen to such claims nowadays. Most of the time people owning low-contents to no-contents like to exaggerate the wolf-contents in their dogs. If the wolfdog (assuming if it is TRULY a wolfdog) has floppy ears, it's definitely NOT a hybrid between a wolf and an arctic breed. Although there ARE huskies, GSD, malamutes, and many other northern spitz who do have floppy ears, such dogs are usually those that were not properly bred from. Even IF that arctic breed parent was affected with that floppy ear, the wolfdog bred from that crossbreeding would be very unlikely to get it. And any F1 wolfdogs with floppy ears are mostly the result of a crossbreeding between a wolf with a dog of the floppy-eared breeds like a poodle or a dalmatian, etc. But with your case, I HIGHLY doubt your friend owns a true wolfdog given all the info you provided.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by darazan » Mon May 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Yeah, I really feel that they were told it was a wolfdog and assume that any bad or odd behavior is because of that. Generally, I find bad behavior to be a result of poor socialization and training on the part of the owner/breeder. I don't think anyone should use the breed as an excuse for bad behavior, and should always try to curb such behavior if possible.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Tue May 07, 2013 4:12 am

It's usually the human's fault. Wolfdogs regardless of what breeds that are mixed into the genepool are just the way they are, animals with mix wolf and dog temperament and depending on the contents will either behave more like wolves or like dogs but never should any of this be used as an excuse for labelling such a cross as "dangerous" when in truth most people don't have the proper experience of raising such animals.
darazan wrote:Yeah, I really feel that they were told it was a wolfdog and assume that any bad or odd behavior is because of that. Generally, I find bad behavior to be a result of poor socialization and training on the part of the owner/breeder.
Having personally interacted with wolfdogs, Coywolves(exotic hybrids that are 58% Grey wolf and 42% coyotes, common in Eastern to Atlantic Canada) near my favourite fishing spot and Eastern Coyotes (also Coywolves but with a much lower Grey wolf content ~15%) living in the creeks and valleys of Toronto, I can tell you that they are definitely NOT the "aggressive" type that people often paint them out to be as long as you don't have little unsupervised kids or those who have a tendency to throw a tendrum. Though these animals are nothing like dogs and often act shy around strange humans, they are not necessarily "dangerous" to hang around with but at the same time still have that high predator instinct and this is also why I keep trying to tell some people that these animals don't belong in the house and unless you know what you're doing, getting a wolfdog or coydog of any content can be dangerous for the animal if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Aside from misrepresentations of wolfdogs, I also know cases of people who "adopted" what was labelled as a "husky-mix" only to realize that they legitimately got a mid-content wolfdog or a low-content with some recent wolves that are not too many generations away. It's bad enough to sell a crossbreed labelled as a wolfdog when it's not as that could lead to them being taken away and euthanized but to sell the real thing as a dog will only cause more problems and likely give the animal a hellish life. Have you every tried to correct your friend?
darazan wrote: I don't think anyone should use the breed as an excuse for bad behavior, and should always try to curb such behavior if possible.
I agree with that too. ANY regular dog, even a normal labrador or a tiny chihuahua can seriously harm a person especially on a child left unattended, I know from personally witnessing my Buddy (a chihuahua) bit a woman's foot very hard in late 2001 when she tried to shoo him off, shouting at him at the top of her throat, and he misinterpreted it as a threat. I dare say that more small breeds are getting away with "aggressive behaviours" than large breeds including those with known wolfdog hybrids in their background like the Saarloos and the Vlcaks because of PEOPLE overlooking them as "tiny", "fragile", or "defenceless". Yet it is often the large animals that pay the price when it should be the bad owners.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by darazan » Sat May 11, 2013 8:00 pm

I have tried to correct my friend to no avail, but until I see or meet the dog for myself it's difficult to really tell him why I don't think the dog is a wolfdog beyond the floppy ears.

I've seen so many small breeds that owners just don't train and are horribly aggressive both towards people and other animals. I don't understand why they think it's cute that their dog is acting this way, but it's awful. When I would take my mother-in-law's 2 lab mixes (Jaeger and Yukon) out for a walk, one of the people in the neighborhood would just let their chihuahua run around out front without a lead and usually not even being out there. This chihuahua was not trained and would bark at and try to charge me or the dogs when we would get close to the house (which was difficult to avoid as it was very close to my mother-in-law's house. Even though it was difficult and took a long time for Jaeger and Yukon to not react to this chihuahua, they were able to work through it and we could continue our walks without them pulling to get at the little dog.
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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by firleymj » Fri May 17, 2013 3:51 am

I've wondered for a while at the wolf-dog term. If memory serves (and I promise to look it up), the difference between Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris is something on the order of 150 or so genes in the entire genome of the animal. Given the distribution of alleles in the population of so called wolf-dogs, it amazes me that there aren't a lot of false positive genetic tests. Most of the variations I assume to be the result of selective linkage disequilibrium as the result of human interference in the genome. Thus, the distribution of alleles that mark "wolf" (especially recessive expressions) may be over sampled based on the information content of the genetic sequences.

See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19189949

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Re: Is this truly a Labrador/Grey wolf mix?

Post by Tiantai » Sat May 18, 2013 6:18 pm

firleymj wrote:I've wondered for a while at the wolf-dog term. If memory serves (and I promise to look it up), the difference between Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris is something on the order of 150 or so genes in the entire genome of the animal. Given the distribution of alleles in the population of so called wolf-dogs, it amazes me that there aren't a lot of false positive genetic tests. Most of the variations I assume to be the result of selective linkage disequilibrium as the result of human interference in the genome. Thus, the distribution of alleles that mark "wolf" (especially recessive expressions) may be over sampled based on the information content of the genetic sequences.

See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19189949

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Here's where I get even more controversial. All domestic dogs are simply listed as Canis lupus familiaris EXCEPT for the Australian Dingoes Canis lupus dingo and the New Guinea Highland dogs Canis lupus hallstromi whom although are descended from dogs have reverted to the wild for thousands of years that they have evolved into their own distinct subspecies of the Grey wolves. However, the thing about linking the difference between the Canis lupus and Canis lupus familiaris is that the dog, due to having so many different forms depending on the breeds (or breeds existing in crossbreeds), you'll always find a variety of different alleles. But even the gene for true wild Grey wolves are hard to detect in an alleged wolfdog cross because the Grey wolf, although generally the same species as the dog, has split into SO MANY different subspecies and each subspecies has regions of their DNA that is "distinct" from other subspecies due to adaptations to different environments. And yet, sometimes the different subspecies tend to breed with each other under circumstances (example: Yukon wolf Canis lupus pambasileus x Arctic wolf Canis lupus arctodus, Vancouver Island wolf Canis lupus crassodon x Rocky Mountain wolf Canis lupus irremotus) OR in some cases they interbreed with Golden Jackals (African wolves Canis lupus lupaster x Golden Jackals Canis aureus), as with a case in Senegal, or with Coyotes (Great Plains wolf Canis lupus nubilis x Coyote Canis latrans, of which the Eastern wolves Canis lupus lycaon in Ontario are descendants of those hybrids) if the populations for their own kind is very low in a particular area. So overall, with so many subspecies and in some cases certain ones mixing with each other, it's difficult to tell sometimes exactly WHAT wolf is mixed in a wolfdog or what BREED of dog is in the mutt unless otherwise specified with solid evidence of actual parentage. Of course, most people don't REALLY care about what subspecies of Grey wolf is in the hybrid as much as they do about the domestic dog breed. So even if a person claims that their wolfdog is part labrador, and IF it really is, exactly what subspecies of Grey wolf is in that wolfdog would be where I begin my first question to them.
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