New outcrosses?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by wen » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:52 am

American Alsatian, are beautiful, even if maybe a little too fluffy for me.
silver GSD are wow, but quite rare aren't they ?
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:40 am

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
Kootenaywolf wrote: Unfortunately I don't know where the dog in the top picture came from. I believe I saw someone use it as an example of a wolfy(ish) looking GSD, and I saved the picture.
I see, it actually looks like a GSD mixed to me. I don't know. Some Saarloos and Czech can also have that appearance as well due to the German Shepherd being used in those breeds' genepool.

It is a silver/grey sable GSD, not a cross :D

They do look beautiful...
Ciaobella wrote:I was just watching a documentary called "Science of Dogs" on National geographic and the owners explained that when developing the Dogo Argentino they used Boxer, Irish Wolfhound, Great Dane, Pointer, Great Pry, Dogue de Bourdeaux, etc and you would never know it today....
I'd never have guessed they were in there :D I can kinda see the boxer head tho, they look lovely ... Shame the breed got banned in the uk because idiots turned it into a common fighting dog, hey would probably have made great companions :(
WhiteElkStag wrote:Interesting point Ciaobella, but the breed is already fairly healthy. We are in the long-run more worried about maintaining genetic diversity than health disorders. Careful breeding over the next few generations should be able to largely breed out all of the genetic health disorders currently present in the breed. One of the big factors that influenced Kira and I to choose Rhea, Sophie, and Auri was because their parents had excellent hips, they were DM free, and there was no real risk of other genetic disorders.

Also, as a breeder, I would be very reluctant to breed a litter of mixed-breed mutts who I would then have a difficult time finding homes for when we can use other wolfy looking dogs to expand the genepool while we maintain the look. I do not think that the Dogo Argentino was bred with a particular look in mind. They were bred to be large brave hunting dogs with good noses, so each breed which was added to the gene pool was done to emphasize a particular characteristic. With the Tamaskan, they are a wolfy looking arctic breed. This is something we must work to maintain.
An out-cross to help with SA is needed not just health issue band aids :mrgreen: A suitable out-cross need's to be found that is more independent and capable of being left along for longer than 5 minuts.

It is going to be very hard to find that as well as good health and the 'look'... No dog has all this rolled into one because if such dog existed, then it would be pointless to continue the Tamaskan...

I think what Ciaobella was saying is that there are more important things to look at before looks are considered a must have. It should have been done before it got to the point where it was going to be painful to sacrifice looks and the health and temperament should have been rock solid before looks were worked on and defined to the point it is... It wouldn't have mattered what was used to create a family dog who can be left and is totally healthy with a huge gene pool if you didn't have to keep 'the look' as well which could have been worked on later...


Edit; I should really add on the bottom that it is all personal opinion as an outsider... Breeding and out-crossing is way over my head except the obvious issues within the breed i can see that need addressing by a suitable out-cross, because it will need outside lines to fix it...
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:02 pm

TerriHolt wrote:An out-cross to help with SA is needed not just health issue band aids :mrgreen: A suitable out-cross need's to be found that is more independent and capable of being left along for longer than 5 minuts.

It is going to be very hard to find that as well as good health and the 'look'... No dog has all this rolled into one because if such dog existed, then it would be pointless to continue the Tamaskan...

I think what Ciaobella was saying is that there are more important things to look at before looks are considered a must have. It should have been done before it got to the point where it was going to be painful to sacrifice looks and the health and temperament should have been rock solid before looks were worked on and defined to the point it is... It wouldn't have mattered what was used to create a family dog who can be left and is totally healthy with a huge gene pool if you didn't have to keep 'the look' as well which could have been worked on later...


Edit; I should really add on the bottom that it is all personal opinion as an outsider... Breeding and out-crossing is way over my head except the obvious issues within the breed i can see that need addressing by a suitable out-cross, because it will need outside lines to fix it...
In this light, would you yourself be willing to have a Tamaskan mix?
I think that this is what WhiteStag exactly means, can they even find homes for such puppies, why make the risk of producing a mixed litter over a Tamaskan litter even if it can widen the gene pool and help for later generations..

Will there be people willing to take the Tamaskan x out-cross' puppies?
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:53 pm

Plenty of people seem to want a cross, if the rising numbers of doodles, poo's, huskamutes, borderjacks, springadors etc, are any indication.

Health, genetic diversity and temperament, .should.always.come.before.appearance.to me, at least.

I've no want for a pretty breed, that will spiral into extinction, as a result of the breeders prioratising aesthetics over.what.is.necessary.

As to wether I'd have a cross, if the parent breeds had what I was looking for in a dog at the time, and I liked the breeders ethos, than yes, I would.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:03 pm

Nino wrote:In this light, would you yourself be willing to have a Tamaskan mix?
If the right dog was used, if it was going to help, if it wasn't sold full price and if it was local to avoid excess transport/fuel costs then most likely. But, you'd need to find potential breeding homes for them which is something i couldn't guarantee i'd be willing to do.

At this rate i won't be getting another Tamaskan due to the SA... My original idea was to get another to help with sam's but it has been said a few times that it's not always going to work like that and my neighbor has issues with 1 howling dog let alone 2 so i need to find a detached house so a 2nd howling dog wouldn't be as annoying to neighbors.
If the out cross used was one that SA isn't as common in it would work better in my favor.... Less stubbornness and being more willing to please would be an awesome bonus if that was added too :D

All breeds had to, at one point, find homes for out-crosses (yes, i know not all did) because without crossing, numbers would dwindle and the SA problem will never be bread out... Not to mention the stubbornness, lack of recall and only being willing to do as asked when they want to...

When i got sam, i was promised all the opposite of this because if i was told the truth, i would have waited till it had been sorted... The ANCD is said to be willing to please, learns quicker and has the ability to be left alone.

But all that being said, it appears that an out-cross is been looked for with looks being the main priority when there are things that need addressing first... Lynn made the mistake of perfecting looks and because no one wants to lose those as well as sort other things, the options are limited...
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:17 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Nino wrote:In this light, would you yourself be willing to have a Tamaskan mix?
If the right dog was used, if it was going to help, if it wasn't sold full price and if it was local to avoid excess transport/fuel costs then most likely. But, you'd need to find potential breeding homes for them which is something i couldn't guarantee i'd be willing to do.

At this rate i won't be getting another Tamaskan due to the SA... My original idea was to get another to help with sam's but it has been said a few times that it's not always going to work like that and my neighbor has issues with 1 howling dog let alone 2 so i need to find a detached house so a 2nd howling dog wouldn't be as annoying to neighbors.
If the out cross used was one that SA isn't as common in it would work better in my favor.... Less stubbornness and being more willing to please would be an awesome bonus if that was added too :D

All breeds had to, at one point, find homes for out-crosses (yes, i know not all did) because without crossing, numbers would dwindle and the SA problem will never be bread out... Not to mention the stubbornness, lack of recall and only being willing to do as asked when they want to...

When i got sam, i was promised all the opposite of this because if i was told the truth, i would have waited till it had been sorted... The ANCD is said to be willing to please, learns quicker and has the ability to be left alone.

But all that being said, it appears that an out-cross is been looked for with looks being the main priority when there are things that need addressing first... Lynn made the mistake of perfecting looks and because no one wants to lose those as well as sort other things, the options are limited...
And that's the crux of the matter, if people won't temperarily sacrifice what.they.want.to do, for what.needs.to be done, than I can't see the breed having the future it deserves.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:49 pm

TerriHolt wrote:But all that being said, it appears that an out-cross is been looked for with looks being the main priority when there are things that need addressing first... Lynn made the mistake of perfecting looks and because no one wants to lose those as well as sort other things, the options are limited...
Not all are just "focusing on the looks", I actually know at least a handful of people (including breeders/future breeders) who would rather take a step back on the looks and sort out some of the problems that they could fix if the horizon on which breeds could be usable was widened.

I think I have stated this before, but I myself would be willing to do the work needed in finding the right dog (healthy and with the perfect temper - and somewhat what is wished for in the Tamaskan ex. erect ears, no curly tail and a good build), crossing it and finding the right people to care for the pups.
I would never expect to get the price for a "purebred" Tamaskan pup for a dog that wouldn't look like one, and I would probably work out a co-ownership contract so that the owners of the pups wouldn't need to want to breed themselves but the dogs genes weren't lost (this is used more than a few times here, where the dog lives and is taken care of by a family, but ex. for certain breeding rights are taken into the home of the breeder/co-owner to have a litter so that the family do not have to want to breed themselves).
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by wolfwannabe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:20 pm

Seeing as the labrador has been suggested, how about something like one of these husky x labs http://www.huskypy.com/page51.htm it would be already 1 gen from a pedigree lab and the markings look quite good on some of the pups.

Would a Tam x Lab produce pups marked like these?????
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Gaby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:28 pm

Taz wrote:http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&s ... ih=356#i=0
Anyone know much about these, would they have anything to offer?
I didn't read everything, but wanted to say something about the Harzer Fuchs. This is a nice looking breed, but I don't think it would be a good choice characterwise. They are working dogs and have quite a lot of herding instinct, which could be difficult to manage. And they have a fair amount of preydrive and that could be difficult too. Certainly not a dog for unexperienced people, they need a lot of guidance and training. I would not vote for them, though I love the looks of these dogs. ;)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:33 pm

I thought there was a Tam x lab litter born in CA accidentally. Hmm...photos....
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:14 pm

Gaby wrote:
Taz wrote:http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&s ... ih=356#i=0
Anyone know much about these, would they have anything to offer?
I didn't read everything, but wanted to say something about the Harzer Fuchs. This is a nice looking breed, but I don't think it would be a good choice characterwise. They are working dogs and have quite a lot of herding instinct, which could be difficult to manage. And they have a fair amount of preydrive and that could be difficult too. Certainly not a dog for unexperienced people, they need a lot of guidance and training. I would not vote for them, though I love the looks of these dogs. ;)
Thats fine, i know next to nothing about them, but thought I'd put it out there.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Taz wrote:
Gaby wrote:
Taz wrote:http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&s ... ih=356#i=0
Anyone know much about these, would they have anything to offer?
I didn't read everything, but wanted to say something about the Harzer Fuchs. This is a nice looking breed, but I don't think it would be a good choice characterwise. They are working dogs and have quite a lot of herding instinct, which could be difficult to manage. And they have a fair amount of preydrive and that could be difficult too. Certainly not a dog for unexperienced people, they need a lot of guidance and training. I would not vote for them, though I love the looks of these dogs. ;)
Thats fine, i know next to nothing about them, but thought I'd put it out there.
I was in reading about the Altdeutcher Herder (or how it's spelled - means Old German Shepherd) which the Harzer Fuchs is part of, besides the fact that it is not a recognized breed and there are quite few of them, they also seem to be quite a big variation in the AH itself.. I wouldn't vote for it either..
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Gaby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Taz wrote:
Gaby wrote:
Taz wrote:http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&s ... ih=356#i=0
Anyone know much about these, would they have anything to offer?
I didn't read everything, but wanted to say something about the Harzer Fuchs. This is a nice looking breed, but I don't think it would be a good choice characterwise. They are working dogs and have quite a lot of herding instinct, which could be difficult to manage. And they have a fair amount of preydrive and that could be difficult too. Certainly not a dog for unexperienced people, they need a lot of guidance and training. I would not vote for them, though I love the looks of these dogs. ;)
Thats fine, i know next to nothing about them, but thought I'd put it out there.
All suggestions are very welcome if you ask me, and they are stunning, so I really understand why you thought about them! ;) I hope you have more suggestions. ;) I didn't ment to be rude, it's sometimes quite difficult to write something subtle when English is not my native language. Sorry!

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:16 pm

I'm not too fundamentally concerned about the looks but I just want to make sure that the breed maintains at least some wolfish degree of appearance even when outcrossed so that the wolf-like traits can be retained when crossed back with other Tamaskans or with another similar looking northern spitz.

Along with the new outcross though, I DO believe there are breeds that need to be off-limit such as pugs, bulldogs, any toy breeds, and any dog that has extremely short legs. They for sure will screw up the breed if introduced. :ugeek:
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:28 pm

I think the structure of the Tam ought to be maintained: narrow chest, long legs, long body, straight tail, long neck, slight stop, erect ears, etc. I just found a crazy diagram on how to assess a dog for single tracking. When I get home I'll post in my other thread on "does form follow function" (again, from this really crazy book called The Dog In Motion) I'm taking so many notes that I'll never be able to post them in one post. It'll have to be a file :P
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I think the structure of the Tam ought to be maintained: narrow chest, long legs, long body, straight tail, long neck, slight stop, erect ears, etc. I just found a crazy diagram on how to assess a dog for single tracking. When I get home I'll post in my other thread on "does form follow function" (again, from this really crazy book called The Dog In Motion) I'm taking so many notes that I'll never be able to post them in one post. It'll have to be a file :P
More info to read and write for future references I guess.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:05 pm

At Gaby
No need to apologise, I didn't think you were being rude at all.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:08 pm

Chodsky pes? Not sure of the spelling.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:19 pm

Taz wrote:Chodsky pes? Not sure of the spelling.

Bohemian Shepherd? Do't they have short legs? I think the build resembles a border collie? Sorry if i'm thinking of something esle... not too up on the personality tho... maybe it's the fur making the legs look short? It is had to tell from pictures alone and not feeling where the joints end and the body starts...
Nino wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:But all that being said, it appears that an out-cross is been looked for with looks being the main priority when there are things that need addressing first... Lynn made the mistake of perfecting looks and because no one wants to lose those as well as sort other things, the options are limited...
Not all are just "focusing on the looks", I actually know at least a handful of people (including breeders/future breeders) who would rather take a step back on the looks and sort out some of the problems that they could fix if the horizon on which breeds could be usable was widened.

I think I have stated this before, but I myself would be willing to do the work needed in finding the right dog (healthy and with the perfect temper - and somewhat what is wished for in the Tamaskan ex. erect ears, no curly tail and a good build), crossing it and finding the right people to care for the pups.
I would never expect to get the price for a "purebred" Tamaskan pup for a dog that wouldn't look like one, and I would probably work out a co-ownership contract so that the owners of the pups wouldn't need to want to breed themselves but the dogs genes weren't lost (this is used more than a few times here, where the dog lives and is taken care of by a family, but ex. for certain breeding rights are taken into the home of the breeder/co-owner to have a litter so that the family do not have to want to breed themselves).
I'm sorry, i didn't mean for it to sound like thats what i thought everyone thinks... It just kinda makes me sad to see a breed get mentioned for the temperament get shot down because it doesn't look tam-ish.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:32 pm

I think they're a smaller breed in general, more medium than large. I was thinking more temperament/working ability, probably not suitable though.

The breed just popped into my head lol.

Another for appearance in as much as they come in wolf grey and have erect ears, would be the Jindo, but temperament, not what you may want.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Kootenaywolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:16 pm

I have spent some time with one Bohemian Shepherd, and she was a little bit insane! Definitely a working dog who NEEDED a job and a lot of guidance, tons of energy, needed to have her mind occupied all of the time. Also quite small/shorter legs. She was a nice dog but definitely a handful, probably not what is needed in the Tam!

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Sammi58 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:30 am

What about a Goberian (Golden Retriever x Siberian Husky) Some of their puppys have the coat look,
but idk how the ears would come up.








If i recall these dogs are bred by WJkennels.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:34 am

TerriHolt wrote:An out-cross to help with SA is needed not just health issue band aids :mrgreen: A suitable out-cross need's to be found that is more independent and capable of being left along for longer than 5 minuts.

It is going to be very hard to find that as well as good health and the 'look'... No dog has all this rolled into one because if such dog existed, then it would be pointless to continue the Tamaskan...

I think what Ciaobella was saying is that there are more important things to look at before looks are considered a must have. It should have been done before it got to the point where it was going to be painful to sacrifice looks and the health and temperament should have been rock solid before looks were worked on and defined to the point it is... It wouldn't have mattered what was used to create a family dog who can be left and is totally healthy with a huge gene pool if you didn't have to keep 'the look' as well which could have been worked on later...
You hit the nail on the head!! ;)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by WhiteElkStag » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:22 am

Why do we need to outcross to address SA? Out of our three girls, only Rhea has issues with SA and then only if we leave her outside of her crate. If we bed her down before we leave she knows that she's secure and snoozes until we get home. If there are already dogs within the breed who do not exhibit issues with SA then selective breeding should be able to address the issue with fewer long-term complications than outcrossing.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:29 am

Nahani may have access to more tamaskan x lab puppy photo's that were born in LA california: (Terra's owner seems to no longer be on facebook)

Here is one of the photos of the pups young... I believe 2-3 of them have the tamaskan coloring but unsure the body shape as they are still young in the only photo I can find at the moment.

TAMASKAN x LAB:
Pups%20-%20the%20pack.jpg
Hawthorne wrote:I think the structure of the Tam ought to be maintained: narrow chest, long legs, long body, straight tail, long neck, slight stop, erect ears, etc. I just found a crazy diagram on how to assess a dog for single tracking. When I get home I'll post in my other thread on "does form follow function" (again, from this really crazy book called The Dog In Motion) I'm taking so many notes that I'll never be able to post them in one post. It'll have to be a file :P

I think we defiantly need outcrosses to fix the SA, prey drive, will to please and have the diversity. Cause at this moment I would never suggest this breed to someone that hasn't owned winter breeds. An looks are not my first priority but I do think we need to find outcrosses that do maintain the same basic shape as Skeleton issues are the hardest to fix.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:39 am

WhiteElkStag wrote:If there are already dogs within the breed who do not exhibit issues with SA then selective breeding should be able to address the issue with fewer long-term complications than outcrossing.
From what i've read, especially in usa, unrelated breeding pairs are extremely hard to come by so adding the pressure of making sure at least one of those dogs don't have SA is going to make it even harder surely? And by breeding this way, it seem's like it is slowly going to reduce the breeding options...
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:17 pm

I think the coat looks too 'feathery' if a retriever was used.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:34 pm

WhiteElkStag wrote:Why do we need to outcross to address SA? Out of our three girls, only Rhea has issues with SA and then only if we leave her outside of her crate. If we bed her down before we leave she knows that she's secure and snoozes until we get home. If there are already dogs within the breed who do not exhibit issues with SA then selective breeding should be able to address the issue with fewer long-term complications than outcrossing.
Why wouldn't you? It would be rare/a pain to find two unrelated pairs that don't suffer from it. The breed is littered with SA ranging from mild - severe. I'm not understanding why outcrossing to get genetic diversity and to help the breed with SA is an issue. Not all tams are like your girl were only a crate will do I'm sure. It's a breed flaw that should be addressed.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by juice » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:50 pm

i agree that s/a needs to be addressed as i have a tam that has severe s/a. however i think we should keep to the wolfy looking breeds to do this. i am hoping that our boy dylan will be better than lexi with s/a and then we should have a good match as he is completely the opposite to lexi in a good way :D in that he is more outgoing than she was and is and has small ears and a straight tail. outcrossing will never please everyone with whatever is decided upon and i hope it will be done properly and that before it takes place the puppies will have homes to go to as i would hate for the pups to not have homes. another thought possibly is to wait and see what jennies winnie x gsd comes out like and how the puppies sell, just a thought. these are only my opinion's and i will wait and see how it all pans out. :D

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:52 pm

Although I do like the retrivers I am not sure they are right for the Tamaskan. i did look into them all and the one I thought wouldn't hurt the look too much was the Flatcoated retriver, but as far as I could conclude, this isn't the most healthy breed and I wouldn't want to introduce extra risk of ex epilepsy with it.

As for not needing to add dogs to work on the SA, I do not thinkt that will be possible. To only breed on our current dogs to get rid of the SA we would have to set up criterias to make sure which dogs are suitable to breed, but since SA is not only something that i regulated by genetics but also something that can be "taught" and therefore we cannot be sure if a dog is more or less prone to it bacause it can be caused by events (like something happening while being alone).
We can only look at the population as a whole and say, hey there seems to be a pattern of SA, and so can we do when looking for an out-cross.. Is the breed selected prone to SA or are they not?
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:40 pm

Nino wrote:Although I do like the retrivers I am not sure they are right for the Tamaskan. i did look into them all and the one I thought wouldn't hurt the look too much was the Flatcoated retriver, but as far as I could conclude, this isn't the most healthy breed and I wouldn't want to introduce extra risk of ex epilepsy with it.

As for not needing to add dogs to work on the SA, I do not thinkt that will be possible. To only breed on our current dogs to get rid of the SA we would have to set up criterias to make sure which dogs are suitable to breed, but since SA is not only something that i regulated by genetics but also something that can be "taught" and therefore we cannot be sure if a dog is more or less prone to it bacause it can be caused by events (like something happening while being alone).
We can only look at the population as a whole and say, hey there seems to be a pattern of SA, and so can we do when looking for an out-cross.. Is the breed selected prone to SA or are they not?
I also wouldn't like the a retriever added as I think you would loose the nice Tamaskan head among other things. I think it is a must to bring in some dogs to improve separation anxiety as not everyone is going to put the same time in as others to minimize it... If I hadn't gotten Zephyr I am sure he would of been one of the dogs returned to Lynn. An we can't deny that there have been returns of dog because there in ability to be alone... It is something that should be addressed sooner than later.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by WhiteElkStag » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:01 pm

Ciaobella wrote:Why wouldn't you? It would be rare/a pain to find two unrelated pairs that don't suffer from it. The breed is littered with SA ranging from mild - severe. I'm not understanding why outcrossing to get genetic diversity and to help the breed with SA is an issue. Not all tams are like your girl were only a crate will do I'm sure. It's a breed flaw that should be addressed.
Show me proof that SA is an inheritable genetic trait.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:20 pm

That it is more present in ex. Northern breeds than some other breeds are pretty much proof enough for me..
Else it ought to be the same over all percentage when comparing GSD, Lab, mastiff, husky etc.. All of these have different personalities and I'm pretty sure they don't have the same amount of SA in them
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:26 pm

I don't mind if the outcross takes a slight step away from the breed's standard but I don't want the breed to be crossed with those that can ruin the nose, coat, ears, # of teeth, and knees and take many generations to breed out such as with a pug, boerboel, or English mastiff. I am willing to sacrifice a bit of the appearance in some Tamaskan outcross for at least two generations to improve on the temperament, workabilities, and endurance but no more than that. Though I'm not too worry about the appearance because I'm confident that the northern spitz genes would eventually dominate over the introduced fresh gene which is why the Malamute managed to recover much of their original body structure despite having once crossed with St. Bernards for bone and strength.

For temperament, I still think the St. Bernard mentioned above is a good outcross because they, despite their intimidating size, are very friendly by nature and many are known to be gentle with children which is a trait that's highly desired for future Tamaskans. They are also loyal to their family and very tolerant of other dogs and cats living with them. The only thing I'm worried about is the chance of some dogs showing large spots on their coats but that was quickly bred out of the Malamutes that were crossed with the breed so I think they won't be too much of a problem as long as we can keep the temperament. I think this outcross MIGHT reduce the SA as well but I don't know.

For the workabilities, I do believe that certain breeds like the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog can still pull sleds pretty well and share some of the working instincts with the northern spitz so crossing that may not or rather should not breed out the sled-pulling trait. They're also loyal to their family and (now, I am NOT entirely sure about this part but it's something an owner told me so I could be wrong) have been used to assist babysitters much like the early Alaskan Malamutes did and I think that MIGHT come in handy for the Tamaskan breed. The only downsize to it though is that they do share a little of the huskies' independent nature and many aren't particularly interested in pleasing their owners but I kind of like that to be honest. I think a little bit of that independent mind is crucial for the breed cuz afterall, Tamaskans in my opinion aren't meant to be like totally obedient labradors but an active breed that's friendly, intelligent, a little sharp-minded, and have good sled-pulling and endurance skills. It is a nrothern spitz built for the four seasons and in my opinion should stay that way.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tatzel » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:09 pm

No offense Lucas, but I think St.Bernard is a really bad choice for any Tam outcross. Simply because anything on the dog looks nothing what the Tam is aiming for - neither the body shape (very 'heavy'), nor the headshape (high forehead/big stop, squared muzzle), also big floppy ears, too much skin (sloping chaps) and pibald color.

The greater swiss mountain dog comes with the same issues, plus the wrong coat lengh.

I'd rather see more healthy GSD added which would result in larger ears again probably than getting the headshapes of these dogs you mentioned.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:35 pm

Nino wrote:That it is more present in ex. Northern breeds than some other breeds are pretty much proof enough for me..
Else it ought to be the same over all percentage when comparing GSD, Lab, mastiff, husky etc.. All of these have different personalities and I'm pretty sure they don't have the same amount of SA in them
But wouldn't this just be a function of pack mentality? Which all Northern breeds have?
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:44 pm

Lucas, sorry but your suggestions absolutely make no sense... A St.Bernard or Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, you got to be kidding me right :lol:

You have to look at the whole picture, what can a certain breed offer in terms of looks, health and temperament. I would suggest to try to find suitable dogs from FCI group 5 (Spitz and Primitive Types) and group 1 (Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs), or mixes between those.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:01 pm

Rahne wrote:
You have to look at the whole picture, what can a certain breed offer in terms of looks, health and temperament. I would suggest to try to find suitable dogs from FCI group 5 (Spitz and Primitive Types) and group 1 (Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs), or mixes between those.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:37 pm

If I can get a general outline of what we'd be looking for in terms of an outcrossing, factoring in looks, health, temperament, etc, then I can do some research. I do have some free time on my hands. Lol. If we have certain breed groups we're looking at, then it'll narrow down the list quite a bit. Lol. :lol:

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:10 am

WhiteElkStag wrote:
Ciaobella wrote:Why wouldn't you? It would be rare/a pain to find two unrelated pairs that don't suffer from it. The breed is littered with SA ranging from mild - severe. I'm not understanding why outcrossing to get genetic diversity and to help the breed with SA is an issue. Not all tams are like your girl were only a crate will do I'm sure. It's a breed flaw that should be addressed.
Show me proof that SA is an inheritable genetic trait.
What more proof do you need than the hundreds of tams suffering from it....Are you saying every tam is in the exact same situation, with the exact same owners, living the exact same lifestyle and therefore this is why they are all acting this way?

And lets just X out the SA for a moment. Are you against widening the gene pool as well? That is another factor in this.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by WhiteElkStag » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:37 am

I'll accept two types of proof:
1) Peer reviewed scientific literature.
2) Proof that adding a dog without SA to a breed with severe SA has helped to fix the SA in the breed.

I am in favor of outcrossing only to improve the breed as a whole. The goal with every single mating whether it is between two pedigree dogs or a pedigree and an outcross should be for the pups to be better representatives of the breed than the parents. Debate on the topic is fine on a forum, but any decisions should be made with proper deliberation and due diligence by the breeding community.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:08 am

WhiteElkStag wrote:I am in favor of outcrossing only to improve the breed as a whole. The goal with every single mating whether it is between two pedigree dogs or a pedigree and an outcross should be for the pups to be better representatives of the breed than the parents. Debate on the topic is fine on a forum, but any decisions should be made with proper deliberation and due diligence by the breeding community.
Well we agree there. Everything I have said is out of love for the breed. To see it thrive and not turn in on itself.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:42 am

Rahne wrote:Lucas, sorry but your suggestions absolutely make no sense... A St.Bernard or Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, you got to be kidding me right :lol:

You have to look at the whole picture, what can a certain breed offer in terms of looks, health and temperament. I would suggest to try to find suitable dogs from FCI group 5 (Spitz and Primitive Types) and group 1 (Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs), or mixes between those.
I was trying to NOT focus too much on the appearances but rather on improving the temperaments and working nature. I know that it would alter the appearance far away from the Tam but I THINK the northern spitz traits would still dominate it and return when crossed back.

I'll look more into the primitives and spitz though.

EDIT: Sorry pushed the post button not realizing that this part didn't get posted.

I don't see focussing solely on spitz, shepherds, and pariah would help the breed on the long run.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:30 pm

I'm not sure st. Bernard would be the way to go either tbh, but I do think as said before, that it may benefit the breed in the long run, to sacrifice the look, for a little time at least.

Whilst the breed is still in development, I'd take every oppertunity to increase diversity, because once you restrict yourselves to breeding in a closed gene pool, what you lose you can't get back.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:51 pm

After reading through the posts up to this point (in full), I think we should stick to a breed or mixes that have similar skeletal structure as it seems that is the number one trait that will be the most difficult to change.

In order of importance on criteria, please take a look at the following list and give your opinion on whether research in this (or similar) direction is the starting point. My proposal follows afterwards in regards to outcross selection criteria.

1a. Skeletal Structure
1b(?). Body Structure (or would this be classified under appearances?)
2a. Health
2b. Temperament
3. Appearances (that do not affect skeletal structure)

If this is truly the criteria we should follow in order of importance (1a thru 3, sans 1b.), then I would need someone familiar with the breed standard - owners, breeders - to let me know what skeletal structure we are looking for and then tackle item 1a first. Pinpoint breed group(s) and then actual breeds that will be favorable to the Tamaskan breed so as not to alter the breed's skeletal structure so drastically to "the point of no return". :P

After we do that, I'd then break down the breeds in that condensed list (breed group(s) and actual breeds) from most favorable (skeletal structure) to least favorable, but still possibilities that will not detract from the Tam's structure. The standard will be closely examined and compared to each breed on the list as extensively as possible. This first phase will require LOTS of research, IMO. We will need a cohesive team to get this first phase together.

I would recommend officially presenting this list to the TDR Committee. Breed clubs can then ask opinion of their members if they wish for the TDR Committee to consider. After we get through this first phase, we can then look at health and temperament of each breed. The ones that are more prone to have exceptions to their breed can be prioritized over other breeds - sort of like a pick your poison type thing.

I am thinking that the TDR Committee, after some debate, can opt to weed out any breed(s) they feel would not be good to condense the list even further, taking into consideration health and temperament if they wished... Personally speaking, I'd ask the TDR to re-organize the list to where they feel which breed(s) would be going in the right direction. For example, if we had a list were something like this:

1. Shikoku Inu
2. Siberian Husky
3. Alaskan Malamute
4. Irish Wolfound
5. Greyhoud
6. German Shepherd (working lines)
7. Boxer
8. American Bulldog
9. White Swiss Shepherd
10. German Shepherd (show lines)

If this list were presented to the TDR Committee, then if they have a majority vote where they'll do away with "10. German Shepherd (show lines) and 7. Boxer", then they can do that. If they wanted to re-organize the list to which breed would land higher in the list as more favorable, then they can do that as well. i.e. move Alaskan Malamute to #1 for heavier bone structure and move 9. White Swiss Shepherd for overall health and skeletal structure.

Sorry for jumping around in thought...this is put together on the fly. XD

As I was saying earlier, after we get that "finalized" list back, then the "out cross research team" can then go back and research health and temperament and then re-categorize the list from there. That list and any pertinent notes will be submitted to the TDR Committee to conduct the second phase - further condensing the list.

Finally, the last category will be looked at by the "out cross research team" and then again, re-categorize the list taking breed appearances into consideration. The list will, again, be submitted to the TDR Committee. After they finalize that list, then they can get back to the research team to go as deep in research as possible for the list of breeds they've selected (putting pedigrees, pictures, health testing records, official titles, etc together - almost like a breed resume/CV) to yet again, present to the TDR for out cross consideration - this time, not in list form, but compilation of each individual breed, starting with the breed the TDR would like to examine the most.

This proposal sounds pretty good in my head and, of course, in theory/ideally. I would like to go into discussion of how feasible this proposal (or something similar) may be as opposed to what we're doing now - someone rattles off some breeds, people discuss it and then it sort of disappears or goes into people's notes. The breed standard is the goal, so I think the "goal statement" part of the plan is already done for us. ;) IMHO, I think the "out cross research team" would need to be a sub-committee in the TDR as Tracy (Hawthorne) had suggested somewhere on the forum. (I forgot where. D:)

Anywho, long post is long and give yourself a pat on the back if you've read this far. XD /shuffles out the door

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:09 pm

Taz wrote:I'm not sure st. Bernard would be the way to go either tbh, but I do think as said before, that it may benefit the breed in the long run, to sacrifice the look, for a little time at least.
That's exactly what I was saying, I didn't want to narrow myself to only spitz and those of the wolf-like looking breeds. There has to be diversity in order to improve the breed on the long run. In my opinion when comparing black ANCD to the few black Tamaskans like Rann, I honestly think the former looks more wolf-like and the ANCD has many diversity in the genepool. While the Tamaskan is still just a mutt, I agree with the idea of letting go of the look for a short time will not corrupt the breed. I'm not saying that I want the Tamaskans to look exactly like the ANCD but that I strongly believe that we should look at many options outside of the box, not just focus on spitz, pariah, shepherds, and wolfish-looking breeds much like what's already been said a billion of times by others.

I doubt the skeletal structure would be permanently lost either from adding just ONE St. Bernard because the breed was used in other northern spitz dogs which helped improve some of them. They were used in Malamutes and Greenland Huskies, yet after a generation the Malamute returned to its original skeletal structure and all the temperaments and appearances and so did the Greenland dogs. As long as CAREFUL planning is conducted, I doubt such a crossing would destroy the breed's characteristics that the TDR has worked hard to build.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Valravn » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:38 pm

Does anyone have any more info on TamxLab puppies? What they look like now, their temperament and health, if any are still intact? I mean, if this cross already exists wouldn't it be worth a closer look?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:06 pm

I think the structure of the lab is all wrong for the Tam. They are wide in the chest and as a result don't come anywhere near being a single tracking dog. I think their chest cavity is far too deep and the skull is to doggish. Their toes are too short and the length of back and length of legs will be lost.

Arie, I really appreciate what you're suggesting. However from the perspective of an outside breeder this might be backwards (that is, from the perspective of a dog breeder who is not a Tam breeder). I think the challenge is going to be in finding the appropriate single dog to use--not only in appearance but in the owner / breeder allowing us to use his / her male as an outcross. Lots of clubs explicitly prohibit this. Perhaps this will wind up being a group search for the single dog out there that will be a good choice for foundation stock and the owner who will let us use him. But yes, I would absolutely rule out a lot of breeds based on their skeletal structure. The body type is very striking, and I think a rare thing in the dog world.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:14 am

Am I think only one not entirely opposed to what Lucas is saying? I don't know if I agree with the breed choices (although I don't know enough about Saints & GSMDs to be against it). The jist of what he is saying is not a bad idea, one I agree with. Looks are not the only thing with outcrossing. It does not mean the entire look of the breed is lost in one breeding. Yes, health/temperament/background are important. BUT if we limit the outcrossings to just spitz dogs we would never get anywhere, there should be a consideration to more types of breeds in my opinion. I am not saying go breed with anything, at all, but atleast consider a wider variety.

Going back to my example, you would never guess Irish Wolfhound or Great Pyrenees were in a Dogo Aregentino...
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:03 am

I agree with the gist of it too, but for me personally, there'd be breeds I'd consider before the st Bernard, that's just personal preference on my part.
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I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

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