New outcrosses?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:28 pm

Tatzel wrote:I would really love to see some ANCD being added
Me too. I also think long, strong muzzles (like Jodie pups have) looks very wolfy even, if they have larger ears. I would like to see some more CSWs, Saarlos, Marxdorfers being added or mixes between them. Maybe even a low content wolfdog, with a great character, of course. I don't think collie would be a great match.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:36 pm

I think some smooth collie would be ok, or maybe some sort of cross.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:49 pm

Colour isn't right and type of the coat, ears... What about belgian groenendael mix? Like this one...
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:07 pm

colour, coat and ears wouldn't be a big problem

if you use a black and tan pups will be wolfgrey or black and tan(depends on if the Tam you mate it to carries black and tan or not)
you would probably see some white in the first generations

there aren't many Tams that carry longcoat so pups will probably all have short coats maybe a bit soft in the first generations

collie's have either standing or tipped ears, all pups would most likely have standing ears

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:09 pm

I would rather just add in a purebred groenendaeler instead of a mix then we know what's behind it

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Valravn » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:20 pm

I feel like this thread is cycling back on itself...

I wouldn't mind the Groenendael being looked into more.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:21 pm

Collies are small... so are groenendaels :roll: this one has a GSD behind him and is a little bit stronger.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:29 pm

they are a bit smaller yes but they aren't tiny, pared to a nice sized Tam that shouldn't be a problem

Here's Jack(71cm) next to a Groenen, not the best pic to compare size but you can see she's not tiny
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m272 ... 105b06.jpg

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Booma » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:31 pm

I think you are thinking of the wrong collie. The border collie is small. The rough and smooth coat aren't. As has been pointed out, not many tams carry long coat gene (mine does though), so chances of wooly pups being born are slim.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:45 pm

I am thinking of the right collies. Males 61-66, females 56-61. This is small to me, I would like to see Tams would be at least 65cm at the shoulders and at least 25kg for females. I know Groenendael males are tall but they are tiny to me, around 25 kg. Wait a second, that is she? She is big!

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:49 pm

The Utonagan had some collie used in it, so its not exactly adding anything that hasn't already been done.
Some of the show rough Collies are small, but the smooth's aren't, some are quite tall infact. They're totally different to the border collie.
Its about compromise, you can't have everything in one dog.
And the gsd standard, at least in the UK states 63 cms, how many do you know that are actually that? Most are bigger.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:01 pm

Taz wrote:Its about compromise, you can't have everything in one dog.
Totaly agree.

...I am thinking also about the body mass, not only the height. Most of the GSD females are 60cm at the shoulders and have 30 kg. Tana is also around 60cm but has 20kg.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:53 pm

The ANCD will add size, Noque is 30.5 inches (77.47 cm). I really think he has a lot to offer bred to the right line

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:43 pm

Which line do you think would be right for Noque?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:07 pm

some outcrosses might be on the small side others might be bigger(Noque, Champ), hopefully there will be a nice balance between them

If there will be an outcross with a groenen I will def want one and I'll be happy to cross it with a line which might have Noque behind it(would love to have his eyes on a black coat :P)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:47 pm

Tana wrote:Which line do you think would be right for Noque?
Probably a Zora X Ninja pup...
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:50 pm

Katlin wrote:
Tana wrote:Which line do you think would be right for Noque?
Probably a Zora X Ninja pup...

I would of loved for him to be bred to a Zora X Ninja pup but I didn't have my money together when that litter was born so I missed out on this combo for Noque. So I just waiting for another combo to come along that will compliment Noque. I do love Ninja, hoping another TDR breeder will use him soon with a line that I would be interested in.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:33 pm

That would be a great combination... Theoretically, if you would adopt a puppy from non TDR breeder you could still register it and have TDR puppies...?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:07 pm

Tana wrote:That would be a great combination... Theoretically, if you would adopt a puppy from non TDR breeder you could still register it and have TDR puppies...?
I think what happens is you have the outcross registered as an outcross, have an approved litter, then the puppies get conditional registration and after a year they are re-assesed.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:12 pm

Ah quite complicated.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:57 am

Tana wrote:That would be a great combination... Theoretically, if you would adopt a puppy from non TDR breeder you could still register it and have TDR puppies...?

Being part of the TDR committee it would look bad if I where not hold up to the rules and standards of the TDR. Practice what you preach.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:22 pm

I had in mind a puppy registered with the NTC or DTC, who I believe have high standards and well written rules. Anyway, I understand what you mean.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Miran » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:15 am

AZDehlin wrote:
Tana wrote:That would be a great combination... Theoretically, if you would adopt a puppy from non TDR breeder you could still register it and have TDR puppies...?

Being part of the TDR committee it would look bad if I where not hold up to the rules and standards of the TDR. Practice what you preach.
Eeehm for the NTC or the DTC the rules of the TDR are minimum and just set some higher standards to that ( both say that using dogs out of the clubs must have the minimum rules of the TDR). So where does it look bad :?:

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Tana wrote:I had in mind a puppy registered with the NTC or DTC, who I believe have high standards and well written rules. Anyway, I understand what you mean.
I think that should be admissible. Our sister organizations should not be shut out just because they have higher standards than the TDR. Many of us continue to work together despite the few who cannot get along--which is for the benefit of the breed.

On another note, Darwin was a rehome / rescue at 5 months of age. He was originally bred by J&J Kennels who are not TDR registered. But he is a Tamaskan through and through and the TDR allowed us to health test him and then register him because he has good health results. He has BVA of 6 and DM clear--so we were astonished. But what luck to hold on to this boy as a breeding dog! :)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:04 pm

Miran wrote:Eeehm for the NTC or the DTC the rules of the TDR are minimum and just set some higher standards to that ( both say that using dogs out of the clubs must have the minimum rules of the TDR). So where does it look bad :?:
I dont think it would look bad, I just wanted to know what is the TDR protocol in such case. I understand that as part of the TDR committee you want to support TDR breeders/breeding. Otherwise I fully support NTC/DTC high standards and rules (and also I would like to see that it would be only one register/standards some day).

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Miran » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:30 pm

Tana wrote:
Miran wrote:Eeehm for the NTC or the DTC the rules of the TDR are minimum and just set some higher standards to that ( both say that using dogs out of the clubs must have the minimum rules of the TDR). So where does it look bad :?:
I dont think it would look bad, I just wanted to know what is the TDR protocol in such case. I understand that as part of the TDR committee you want to support TDR breeders/breeding. Otherwise I fully support NTC/DTC high standards and rules (and also I would like to see that it would only one register/standards some day).
of course I can understand that but we still all need eachother. Esspecially the US need the other lines that are mainly among the NTC and the DTC ;)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:50 pm

Miran wrote: but we still all need eachother. Esspecially the US need the other lines that are mainly among the NTC and the DTC ;)
I know, thats why I asked ;)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by OddFoxx » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:21 pm

Vajente wrote:some outcrosses might be on the small side others might be bigger(Noque, Champ), hopefully there will be a nice balance between them

If there will be an outcross with a groenen I will def want one and I'll be happy to cross it with a line which might have Noque behind it(would love to have his eyes on a black coat :P)
Haha If I got my breeder's permission to breed with Sariel, I'd happily volunteer him after I get his hips/elbows xrayed and his CERF tests done when he's 2. Sariel comes from great lines and is actually really big for a Groenendael; he's about 26 1/2" inches at the shoulders and about 50 pounds right now, but still filling in weight and may be filling in weight for the next year or two.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:26 pm

OddFoxx wrote:
Vajente wrote:some outcrosses might be on the small side others might be bigger(Noque, Champ), hopefully there will be a nice balance between them

If there will be an outcross with a groenen I will def want one and I'll be happy to cross it with a line which might have Noque behind it(would love to have his eyes on a black coat :P)
Haha If I got my breeder's permission to breed with Sariel, I'd happily volunteer him after I get his hips/elbows xrayed and his CERF tests done when he's 2. Sariel comes from great lines and is actually really big for a Groenendael; he's about 26 1/2" inches at the shoulders and about 50 pounds right now, but still filling in weight and may be filling in weight for the next year or two.

That would be great! :D

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by OddFoxx » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:38 pm

I'd have to see how she felt about it since Sariel doesn't have any show championship titles for himself, though his parents, grandparents, and several of his siblings routinely place BOB and other nice ranks. I get asked and encouraged a lot about breeding with him, but since I'm not active in the show rings I never know how to feel about it. But letting him help bring in some new genes to another breed to see how that works? I'd definitely consider that route :3
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:49 pm

Do you have to show him before breeding to a groenen? If not then I would just do the health test. Getting championship titles doesn't really matter a good breeder should be able to see if he is a good match for their female. I like shows but just to get the opinion from a other person on what the good and bad traits of my dog are, titles are nice but aren't always a good thing (see: http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org ... sires.html)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:45 pm

I'm just curious as to how close the overall skeletal structure of a gronendael would be to the TDR's expectation for adding to the Tamaskan.
I read off the details in this page but would like to know the opinions of the other folks here in the forum on what you would like to keep from the outcross and what you would want to erase after subsequent generations of backcrossing the outcross into the Tamaskan breed.

http://www.sarronbelgians.com/Groenenda ... ndard.aspx
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:17 am

In my opinion, overall skeletal structure fits nicely to Tamaskan look. Especially, if we want to establish look of a timber wolf. I really like head shape, long muzzle, stop...(that's why I like Vega so much).
That's what I would like to keep plus long legs, nice tail...But in generally I don't like the size, so I would breed with stronger, bigger Tam.

One thing, I'm worried the most, is the character. That dog on the photo I posted before (I posted because I was curious what do you think about the look) has difficult character, he is a good working dog, with high drive, self-confident but on the other side not clear in his head, quickly gets angry, aggressive, dominant (aggresive towards other dogs, nervous around strange people)... I'm not saying he has typical character for groenendaels (is a mutt) but I would say it's hard to get a stable groenendael, who is clear in his head, with good working ability but not with too much herding instinct, not nervous, hysteric or over protective, timid who likes to herd and pinch strangers...I have seen quite a lot of them with such problems. So, for me is the question what characteristics regarding behaviour we would like to keep or erase... (I would like to keep/get some prey (ball) drive, working ability in generally, better contact with handler ("eager to please", good recall) and that's pretty much it).

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:35 am

The Groenen I posted above playing with Jack has an excellent temperament. She is a bit sensitive but all Groenen are but she is very open and friendly towards people and dogs. She really is a sweetheart, no aggression or over protectiveness at all. She has good prey/ball drive but when chasing things she's not supposed too a simple No is enough. She has a big will to please and is absolutely awesome off leash. She is very well mannered, I really am in love with this girl though I must say that she is very well trained.
And she is just as big as my GSD or even a bit bigger (my GSD is 62/63cm)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:16 pm

Sounds like a really nice girl...then I would like to see puppies with Ravi...or Jack :)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by OddFoxx » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:21 am

I was rather worried when I'd gotten my Groen since I'd heard that they're very nervous dogs that are shy around strangers and have such high prey drives that they'd chase anything into the ground. But I guess that's the massive plus side about my breeder screening them all pre-adoption; she gave me the smartest and friendliest so that I could therapy train him to handle strangers, strange places, and lots of contact without too much of an issue. And thankfully he's lived up to that in how friendly and not shy he is. He does want to chase squirrels and the cats and can be a little dominant, but he does have an excellent recall and great temperament, especially with strangers and kids. So it's kind of like I got the Belgie that forgot the things he's supposed to be like XD
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:34 pm

Vajente, that girl will be registered by the NTC, or TDR as well? Is she health tested and everything?

OddFoxx, nice to here that your dog has great temperament too :D

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Vajente » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:02 pm

Tana, the owners aren't completely sure yet if they want to go trough with it so she hasn't had any health test. She will be registered with the NTC.

Oddfox, he sounds great! :)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by ASaroka » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:56 pm

Valravn wrote:I feel like this thread is cycling back on itself...
It does seem that we're cycling through the breeds that we're looking into for outcrosses with the same ones being mentioned and rementioned. I want to be a breeder, so I went through and read the whole thread. I like the idea of a Groen, but their build seems delicate when compared to a Tam, even if their structure is similar given the picture Vajente posted.

I also like Seppalas. Looking into them and doing some research, they have a "switch" where they're a great indoor/family dog, but can be a working dog when needed. Getting one would probably be an issue as they're the original Husky that all other huskies come from. They're rather selectively bred, and blue eyes seem to be prevalant in the one breeder that I found that occassionally outcrosses.

Right now I'm just reading up on the whole thing trying to switch my brain from "husky" to "tamaskan", lol.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Booma » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:04 am

We may be going around in circles, BUT without the blus here there are now more people open to outcrossing, and who are willing to take a step back in looks to improve something else.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:10 am

Makes sense. From earlier posts, it seemed that nothing was good to cross with except another Tam for some. I would be open to getting a dog or two for Tam owners to cross out with for genetic diversity purposes. I was already looking at CWDs or a GSD/husky mix.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:31 am

Again, I wouldn't go for a CWD cross. The reason I chose a tamaskan instead was to avoid any CWD content and I found out later that Wylie is at least 1/8 CWD. Also keep in mind that wolfdogs aren't allowed in some states, that includes CWD, Saarloos, ect.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:16 am

There must have been an incident recently. When I was looking to get a savannah cat a few years ago--not that I could afford it (not paying $15,000 for an animal unless it's a winning race horse)--it was allowed by the city and state. Now my city doesn't allow. Bummer.

On a different note, at the dog park yesterday, there were two long-haired white german shepherds. The owners got one from Chicago and I don't know where the other one was from. The one from Chicago was 10 the other was 4. They were very healthy, physically speaking. I don't know if it was the breed or poor disposition, but they were very nervous being around so many dogs. They were BIG, too. I don't think they were just GSD.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:50 am

Katlin wrote:Again, I wouldn't go for a CWD cross. The reason I chose a tamaskan instead was to avoid any CWD content and I found out later that Wylie is at least 1/8 CWD. Also keep in mind that wolfdogs aren't allowed in some states, that includes CWD, Saarloos, ect.
I'm sorry if I missed something, but aren't you all agree that CSW, Saarloos etc are dogs now, because there wasn't any recent adding of wolf blood and are all more then 5 generations away from wolf?? Again, I'm sorry if I missed something, but in this case they are legal and aren't wolfdogs anymore.

P.S. I really don't get it why are some of you so against adding CSW or Saarloos. It's not about adding the breed as hole and made different version of CSW, but adding specific dogs, who have GREAT temperaments, similar to Tamaskan. Like in the case of Groen, if these two dogs are great, I don't see any reason why not? And I made myself clear that I am sceptical about the character of Groens in generally.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by ASaroka » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:59 am

Tana wrote:I'm sorry if I missed something, but aren't you all agree that CSW, Saarloos etc are dogs now, because their wasn't any recent adding of wolf blood and are all more then 5 generations away from wolf?? Again, I'm sorry if I missed something, but in this case they are legal and aren't wolfdogs anymore.
Pittsburgh's really weird about certain laws. :? I almost got arrested because a cop thought I was training my husky for dog fighting because I was having him haul a sled with weights on it. And the next day it was a different cop and a tire.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Booma » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:38 pm

Tana wrote:
Katlin wrote:Again, I wouldn't go for a CWD cross. The reason I chose a tamaskan instead was to avoid any CWD content and I found out later that Wylie is at least 1/8 CWD. Also keep in mind that wolfdogs aren't allowed in some states, that includes CWD, Saarloos, ect.
I'm sorry if I missed something, but aren't you all agree that CSW, Saarloos etc are dogs now, because their wasn't any recent adding of wolf blood and are all more then 5 generations away from wolf?? Again, I'm sorry if I missed something, but in this case they are legal and aren't wolfdogs anymore.

P.S. I really don't get it why are some of you so against adding CSW or Saarloos. It's not about adding the breed as hole and made different version of CSW, but adding specific dogs, who have GREAT temperaments, similar to Tamaskan. Like in the case of Groen, if these two dogs are great, I don't see any reason why not? And I made myself clear that I am sceptical in the character of Groens in generally.
Although the csv and saarloos are recognised dog breeds, some places still class them as wolfdogs and don't allow them.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:43 pm

Is there a list, where is written where these dogs are forbidden? If so, where can I find it. Thanks.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:21 am

Tana wrote: I really don't get it why are some of you so against adding CSW or Saarloos. It's not about adding the breed as hole and made different version of CSW, but adding specific dogs, who have GREAT temperaments, similar to Tamaskan. Like in the case of Groen, if these two dogs are great, I don't see any reason why not? And I made myself clear that I am sceptical about the character of Groens in generally.
I feel this way as well.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:19 am

The issues with the csv might be because people want a dog that is more likely to fit in with the average pet owner. I like the csv breed, I'd like to own one someday, but they're a special or should that be specialist breed, that most people aren't suited for, even more so than huskies.
But this is where we run into issues, the tamaskan is supposed to be wolf like in its appearance, but not to difficult in its behaviour, and because it was basically created to be a wolfdog substitute, it mostly seems to attract people who want that look, not surprisingly, and then it becomes difficult to add in any outcross that might have suitable temperament traits, but not have the look, because puppy owners don't want that. They don't want the difficult aspects of a wolfdog, or the difficult aspects of huskies, and the csv and saarloos have their own set of potential challenges, no point denying it, and then there are the legal issues some people face.
I've no idea how people can reconcile all of that.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tana » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:18 pm

Taz wrote:They don't want the difficult aspects of a wolfdog, or the difficult aspects of huskies, and the csv and saarloos have their own set of potential challenges, no point denying it, and then there are the legal issues some people face.
I've no idea how people can reconcile all of that.
Yep, they don't want to have any problems with any type of aggresion and want to have nice, obedient "doggy" character.
But, future owners should be aware of-first: Tamaskan is a breed in progress. We can't get all that qualities over the night. Many years will pass and many sacrifices and steps back it will require before the breed will be homogeneous and we will be able to say, that, that is what we wanted! Second: if we only producing puppies so we can sell them, this is nothing else than making money and is not a breed creation at all, just a selling of mutts (roughly speaking). We need to decide what will be the purpose of Tamaskan and set up the goals of breeding/selection. So we can say, that is a Tamaskan! If you think it's suitable for you then ok, you can addopt a puppy, if you don't think so, then this is not a breed for you. Not to adapt to each customer separately, just because it's ready to buy a puppy and he wants this and that and I don't know what else...

About CSW/Saarloos outcrosses (temperament issues ?) Nice example is Bobbi and his offspring. Owners can tell, if they are more challenging than average Tamaskan. I don't think so, and beside that they all look just amazing, very wolfy, like we want. I remember someone wrote here that is too much CSW in the breed...ok in my opinion is husky the breed who is dominating. We have Polar Speed huskies (quite a lot of them) plus Utonagans, Northern Inuits also have huskies behind plus now we have Ninja, his brother and Arrow. And what about CSW, only one-Oskari, one and only. Jackal is the one who is everywhere and he is also a half husky. And I think he is a nice example that mixes husky/CSW can have very very nice temperament, so will have first generation Tamaskan/CSW, if we choose the right stud, of course. Ok, there is a possibility, that some of the pups from first generation would be more challenging. This is normal (even some Tamaskans are more challenging than others). Here is important to find suitable home/owner for each puppy. And like we all agree we are now more open to outcrossing, and we are willing to take a step back to improve something else. In this case might be a step back in character to improve the look, but honestly I doubt that this would be a step back!

About legality: I talked to the owner of CSW. About Europe: He said, they are illegal in Norway, but there are also negotiations in progress. About USA: each state has its own rules, but is generally considered that after F5 are dogs. Correct me, if I'm wrong. Australia: he said, they just sent three puppies to Australia, so they can't be illegal in generally. There it's about wolf content, right? Canada: I don't know, only I know that there is one CSW stud dog in Canada.

Here I have a question, do ANCDs also fall within the wolfdogs (and are illegal in some countries)? What about Svensk Varghund (Avon)?

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