New outcrosses?

All topics pertaining to mating and whelping, as well as upcoming / planned litters.
User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:01 am

I think a great dane is way to big and they have naturally floppy ears. An as much as I loved my German Shepherd I wouldn't like to see anymore added because they have and extremely high risk of cancer a lot of lines have bred in that horrible low back end and their ears are soo much bigger than the Tams. I am unsure on Shiloh shepherds as I have never met one or put my hands on one.

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Nino » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:42 pm

I don't think adding Great Dane would do our breed good.. they have their own problems that I don't want to see in our breed (a lot of them dies because their stomach turns)

I also don't think the Shiloh shepherd would be good to ad, because there is problems as far as I know amongst the breeders etc. I think we have enough problems without adding problems of another upcoming breed to it..

I think, if one chose a WSS it would bring a bit more body to the breed, without making it too bulky, I see a lot of the dogs being very lanky, not that I don't like that but I myself would like that Sølve had a bit more body (not too much just a bit)
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Valravn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Valravn » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:53 pm

Ok guys I was just joking about the Great Dane...

Why not use a Belgian Sheepdog like we discussed before?

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Nino » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:56 pm

Valravn wrote:Ok guys I was just joking about the Great Dane...

Why not use a Belgian Sheepdog like we discussed before?
I have been thinking a lot about that too.. but they aren't really first time dogs either :)
not that I am totally ruling them out :lol:
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:32 am

Valravn wrote:Ok guys I was just joking about the Great Dane...

Why not use a Belgian Sheepdog like we discussed before?
Loved that idea myself :)
The idea of adding a beautiful breed that could eventually produce black grey coloring as well as always a plus!
Katurah

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Nino » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:29 pm

There would be a couple of problems with using black from the Groenendael (black Belgish Shepherd)

1) being that the black coloring isn't black-grey, but just black. Since there is no grey undercoat in then it isn't possible to get the right color and the dogs would just be blacks.

2) being that you cannot know which of the blacks the Groenendael is, they can be both Dominant and Recessive Black, or even both, which makes it impossible to see which the dogs would be before breeding them, yes even dominants won't be 100% sure to produce black pups and then one might think that the black was recessive and that all the pups would be carriers (which they wouldn't)

the "best" way to get the black grey in would probably be through really dark black-sable working line German Shepherd dogs..
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
JessieLove09
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:03 am
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by JessieLove09 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:14 am

Nino wrote:There would be a couple of problems with using black from the Groenendael (black Belgish Shepherd)

1) being that the black coloring isn't black-grey, but just black. Since there is no grey undercoat in then it isn't possible to get the right color and the dogs would just be blacks.

2) being that you cannot know which of the blacks the Groenendael is, they can be both Dominant and Recessive Black, or even both, which makes it impossible to see which the dogs would be before breeding them, yes even dominants won't be 100% sure to produce black pups and then one might think that the black was recessive and that all the pups would be carriers (which they wouldn't)

the "best" way to get the black grey in would probably be through really dark black-sable working line German Shepherd dogs..

They comei n 4 varaties/breeds: The Belgian Groenendael(AKA The Belgian Sheepdog/Shepherd), The Belgian Malinois, The Belgian Tervuren, and the Belgian Laekenois. I have also heard from people who work and own these dogs, is that sometimes that pups who are another Belgian dog can pop up in another litter of another Belgian dog. Such as Belgian Mals showing up in Belgian Tervuren(someone will have to look into that.). Also recently I just found that sometimes in Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois can show up in the same litter, but that is only for the KNPV(Royal Netherlands Policedog Association) lines(specialty Working line dog) and this for police and they track the bloodlines, so I don't think Tamaskan breeders need to worry about that.

Also I don't how the Tamaskan people feel about having long coats. As the Belgian Groenendael/Sheepdog usually come in long coats so I think that is something to watch out for.
Jessica-
Molly-GSD
Rainbow Bridge:
Tanner, Max & Simba

Rahne

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Rahne » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:25 am

JessieLove09 wrote:Also recently I just found that sometimes in Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois can show up in the same litter, but that is only for the KNPV(Royal Netherlands Policedog Association) lines(specialty Working line dog) and this for police and they track the bloodlines, so I don't think Tamaskan breeders need to worry about that.
umm, these are two different breeds so they can't both show up in the same litter. These two breeds are crossed a lot, indeed for working, but then they are sold as crosses and not as being 'pure' of either of them.

I don't think these dogs would be suitable for the Tamaskan at all. Way too much 'drive'.. A long haired Dutch Shepherd might be suitable, they have a calmer temperament. Belgian Shepherd (Tervueren/Groenendael) the same, better suitable temperament then the Malinois.

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Nino » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:29 am

JessieLove09 wrote:
Nino wrote:There would be a couple of problems with using black from the Groenendael (black Belgish Shepherd)

1) being that the black coloring isn't black-grey, but just black. Since there is no grey undercoat in then it isn't possible to get the right color and the dogs would just be blacks.

2) being that you cannot know which of the blacks the Groenendael is, they can be both Dominant and Recessive Black, or even both, which makes it impossible to see which the dogs would be before breeding them, yes even dominants won't be 100% sure to produce black pups and then one might think that the black was recessive and that all the pups would be carriers (which they wouldn't)

the "best" way to get the black grey in would probably be through really dark black-sable working line German Shepherd dogs..

They comei n 4 varaties/breeds: The Belgian Groenendael(AKA The Belgian Sheepdog/Shepherd), The Belgian Malinois, The Belgian Tervuren, and the Belgian Laekenois. I have also heard from people who work and own these dogs, is that sometimes that pups who are another Belgian dog can pop up in another litter of another Belgian dog. Such as Belgian Mals showing up in Belgian Tervuren(someone will have to look into that.). Also recently I just found that sometimes in Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois can show up in the same litter, but that is only for the KNPV(Royal Netherlands Policedog Association) lines(specialty Working line dog) and this for police and they track the bloodlines, so I don't think Tamaskan breeders need to worry about that.

Also I don't how the Tamaskan people feel about having long coats. As the Belgian Groenendael/Sheepdog usually come in long coats so I think that is something to watch out for.
I know.. but there were talking about the black grey.. and thereby I was making the assumption that people were talking about the Groenendael not the other ones.
I have been looking into the genetics of these breeds (or at least three of them - since the Laekenois isn't going to bring us something that we wish for) I know that they can turn up in each others litters but it was the Black-grey I was commenting on..
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
JessieLove09
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:03 am
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by JessieLove09 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:06 am

Rahne wrote:
JessieLove09 wrote:Also recently I just found that sometimes in Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois can show up in the same litter, but that is only for the KNPV(Royal Netherlands Policedog Association) lines(specialty Working line dog) and this for police and they track the bloodlines, so I don't think Tamaskan breeders need to worry about that.
umm, these are two different breeds so they can't both show up in the same litter. These two breeds are crossed a lot, indeed for working, but then they are sold as crosses and not as being 'pure' of either of them.

I don't think these dogs would be suitable for the Tamaskan at all. Way too much 'drive'.. A long haired Dutch Shepherd might be suitable, they have a calmer temperament. Belgian Shepherd (Tervueren/Groenendael) the same, better suitable temperament then the Malinois.
That is what I meant. They mix the breeds.
Jessica-
Molly-GSD
Rainbow Bridge:
Tanner, Max & Simba

User avatar
Blustag
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2971
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:53 am
Location: UK

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Blustag » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:58 am

Having specialised in Belgian Shepherds for many years before I went into the Arcticbreeds I definatley wouldnt recommend a BSD.
They have way too many problems which is why I got out of the breed. I was Top Breeder for several years and both imported and exported my dogs so obviously it took a great deal of thought to abandon them. German Shepherds are another breed I specialised
in for many years before the BSD and I wouldnt use them either.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Tiantai » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:41 am

Blustag wrote:Having specialised in Belgian Shepherds for many years before I went into the Arcticbreeds I definatley wouldnt recommend a BSD.
They have way too many problems which is why I got out of the breed. I was Top Breeder for several years and both imported and exported my dogs so obviously it took a great deal of thought to abandon them. German Shepherds are another breed I specialised
in for many years before the BSD and I wouldnt use them either.
So hypothetically if you were temporarily sent into an alternate reality (let's not get too distracted by this comic-like imaginary multiverse idea) in which the timeline is set decades before now and you encountered a younger version "yourself" with the BSD, what would you tell her regarding the problems with the old breeds that you used to specialize in and the benefits of switching to the breeds that you have now? I can already see the difference in that reality's future Tamaskans :lol:
Image

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by blufawn » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:49 pm

AZDehlin wrote:I would like to see new outcrosses, all tamaskan are way to closely related personally.
I'd have to say I disagree with this statement. If you check the inbreeding statistics for the Tamaskan breed they are a perfectly acceptable and other than one accidental mating between half siblings no 'inbreeding' has taken place.

New outcrosses are being added all the time including Apache Horse, Winnie, Rann, Dashka and Nanna in the past 5 years with the possibility of 2 RPK pups being registered this coming year (pending health tests and TDR approval)

While some stud dogs may have been more used than others that does not mean that unrelated mates for them cannot be found or that we need to panic and search for new breeds or outcrosses or even suggest that the Tamaskan is becoming too closely related, which it certaintly isnt.

What the breed could do with is more stud dog owners who health test their dogs and allow them to be used by breeders. Many people come to us to buy puppies and promise to keep their dogs entire for use in the breeding program and they always get the best pups available (under the breeders of course) but when it comes down to it many of these pet owners are unwilling to pay for the necessary health testing and so the dogs are never used.
If more people were to offer their males at stud then there would be more options for breeders and therefore more unrelated dogs.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rahne

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:55 pm

blufawn wrote: New outcrosses are being added all the time including Apache Horse, Winnie, Rann, Dashka and Nanna in the past 5 years with the possibility of 2 RPK pups being registered this coming year (pending health tests and TDR approval)
Are there plans to breed with Dashka? I will be sending the TDR an email sometime next month about a possible outcross :)

User avatar
KRHert
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:23 am
Location: VA, USA

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by KRHert » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:56 pm

Wait, 2 RPK dogs? Where did these dogs come from? Why are they being considered. I thought the whole thing with RPK was that his dogs were mostly just mutts and inbred ones at that.
___________________________
~ Katelyn

Image

Rahne

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:59 pm

KRHert wrote:Wait, 2 RPK dogs? Where did these dogs come from? Why are they being considered. I thought the whole thing with RPK was that his dogs were mostly just mutts and inbred ones at that.
They are not directly from RPK, but downlines. The owner has two females purchased from a kennel called 'Jobin' in Canada and he has purchased his dogs from RPK. They are nice looking dogs, fit the breed standard so IF they pass their health testing then they COULD be considered for the breed. Nothing has been decided yet, the TDR will take everything into consideration and then vote..

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by blufawn » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:03 pm

While health testing and illness is a worry with RPK's dogs these dogs do not come directly from him, the good thing about these pups is that we know the majority of the history of these dogs and the pedigrees because we have been following what RPK has been doing as his dogs history is intertwinned with ours, the dogs will consistantly produce Tamaskan looking pups if used with a registered TDR male, of that I am convinced, therefore they are new blood (but still distantly related to our Tamaskan)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:06 pm

The two RPK dogs arent really RPK dogs, but dogs from a person in Canada, breeding a couple og litters from Dogs that came from RPK..
These two were bought by someone in Canada (from different litters both females) and SHE then later on, after learning more of the breed, have requested they be taken into consideration as possible TDR Foundation stock..
These are both stunning dogs, and health tests will be made when they are old enough..
The woman seems very nice, and if possible I myself plan on visiting her to see her and her dogs when I (hopefully) are going on my internship in Canada :)
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
KRHert
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:23 am
Location: VA, USA

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by KRHert » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:22 pm

I believe the TDR wouldn't intentionally do anything to harm the breed, which is why I was surprised by the RPK dogs. Thanks for the clarification. If they do have clean health test results then it does sound like a good way of introducing some "new" genes. I'm sure all factors will be taken into consideration.
___________________________
~ Katelyn

Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:13 pm

I'm just a LITTLE BIT worry about those two dogs, but other than that I do hope that Sharayah and Taima are perfectly healthy and have a good BVA test result. I mean, when I looked on the Tamaskan Truth 2.0 group on facebook, I did see some complaints about many of the dogs of RPK line but even though NOT all of RPK's dogs are that bad, I'm still a little worried about the future of the dogs. Fingers crossed ;)
Image

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5203
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:05 pm

blufawn wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:I would like to see new outcrosses, all tamaskan are way to closely related personally.
I'd have to say I disagree with this statement. If you check the inbreeding statistics for the Tamaskan breed they are a perfectly acceptable and other than one accidental mating between half siblings no 'inbreeding' has taken place.
However, there is some inbreeding in the ancestry before the Foundation Dogs, if you look at the British and Finnish bloodlines (Dingo: Wendy x Oskari, Chanoni: Thor x Digit, and also Kyte & Paloose have a lot of shared ancestors). This means that the bloodlines were already relatively closely related BEFORE the existence of the Tamaskan, which simply merged different linebred bloodlines.
blufawn wrote:While some stud dogs may have been more used than others that does not mean that unrelated mates for them cannot be found or that we need to panic and search for new breeds or outcrosses or even suggest that the Tamaskan is becoming too closely related, which it certaintly isnt.
Things may be 'acceptable' now but my concern is that if we don't seek greater genetic variety, we WILL have problems within the next few generations. It is VERY difficult to find unrelated stud dogs in Europe! Personally, I would like to see a couple of new outcrosses added in the near future, just to be safe.

Rahne posted some interesting topics on this subject:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2544

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2543
blufawn wrote:What the breed could do with is more stud dog owners who health test their dogs and allow them to be used by breeders. Many people come to us to buy puppies and promise to keep their dogs entire for use in the breeding program and they always get the best pups available (under the breeders of course) but when it comes down to it many of these pet owners are unwilling to pay for the necessary health testing and so the dogs are never used.
If more people were to offer their males at stud then there would be more options for breeders and therefore more unrelated dogs.
Absolutely. It is also important that breeders seek out those stud dogs that are available, which haven't had much chance of being used yet (if ever).
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by blufawn » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:18 pm

The reason suitable outcrosses cannot be found easily in Europe is because there are still relatively few dogs in mainland europe and they are spread around. There are mates out there but they are too far away...

I would be very worried about adding in new breeds in Europe just because they are short on dogs when they could look at importing lines from America etc

Also new stud dogs are already up and coming such as Ollie, Maverick, Sawyer, Bodie and Shogun who all offer something different.

And I'm sure puppies from Jessicas first litter with her (RPK lines) will be greatly sort after by those wishing for fresh outcrosses.

I know I'm not willing to introduce new lines into the breed when dogs that we have are being ignored and neglected (such as Winnie who has been denied TDR registration over a technicality even though she offers fresh lines)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:26 pm

blufawn wrote:such as Winnie who has been denied TDR registration over a technicality even though she offers fresh lines
Does that mean her puppy isn't registered with the TDR as well? That's too bad :/
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

Rahne

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:30 pm

In the Netherlands we will have Ravi and hopefully (*crosses fingers) little 'Buddy' that can be used as studs (IF they pass health testing) in the future, both from different lines. There should also be a few males in Germany that could be used for breeding so the number of studs dogs is slowly growing.

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:32 pm

Rahne wrote:I(*crosses fingers) little 'Buddy' that can be used as studs
Any news on that? I still wish you luck :D

I'm very glad to hear the stud dogs are starting to expand in number, although I wish Mika could be used :(
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5203
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:35 pm

Katlin wrote:
blufawn wrote:such as Winnie who has been denied TDR registration over a technicality even though she offers fresh lines
Does that mean her puppy isn't registered with the TDR as well? That's too bad :/
Her pup will be registered. It wasn't just a technicality but lets just say that a compromise couldn't be reached. It was a difficult decision as it means that she wasn't able to be registered (which is a shame) but, based on past experiences, transparency is the key.
Katlin wrote:I'm very glad to hear the stud dogs are starting to expand in number, although I wish Mika could be used :(
Mika might still be used, I'm just not sure if his owner will want to cooperate with particular breeders - I don't know the full story so who knows? *shrug*
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:51 pm

Hopefully within a couple of years Denmark will have Yngwie (Saxon Radomir) as a Stud - though it probably wouldn't be a good Idea crossing him with any of the current females in the country - but a time will come when he will be much Appreciated I am sure!
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Lynwae
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:37 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Lynwae » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:58 pm

And hoppefully too, within a couple of years there will be Ayla (blufawn dolly parton, geri x shogun) in France that could be used for breeding too... :)

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5203
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:03 pm

Nino wrote:Hopefully within a couple of years Denmark will have Yngwie (Saxon Radomir) as a Stud
OMG how do you pronounce that name?! :lol:
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:12 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Nino wrote:Hopefully within a couple of years Denmark will have Yngwie (Saxon Radomir) as a Stud
OMG how do you pronounce that name?! :lol:
my guess is yin-gwee??
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:17 pm

Hmm, I do agree with several previous comments here that you guys will eventually come to a point where sending Tamaskans from North America back to the west will eventually become necessary. Until then, I don't know but I have confident that you guys will eventually figure things out. Would it be alright to integrate the Lupo Italiano into the breed? I mean despite the "wolf" in its name (since the wolf has already been long-time bred out of them), this breed is less shy around strangers compared to the Saarloos and has been a useful working dog for decades. Just my little suggestion. ;)
Image

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:22 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Nino wrote:Hopefully within a couple of years Denmark will have Yngwie (Saxon Radomir) as a Stud
OMG how do you pronounce that name?! :lol:
I'm not entirely sure..

my guess would be pretty much as if you use the google translater and puts in Yngwie (or just Yngwi) into it and presses the button to hear how it's said :lol:
something around ing-vay most likely..


I don't think the Lupo Italiano should be brought into the breed.
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Would the lupo even be a possibility? I was under the impression they weren't easy to acquire.
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:49 pm

don't they have huge ears?
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:53 pm

Taz wrote:Would the lupo even be a possibility? I was under the impression they weren't easy to acquire.
http://dogbreeds.bulldoginformation.com ... liano.html

Hmm. Although I'm usually skeptic about unofficial sites, it seems likely that if anyone tries to cross that breed with another non-lupo italiano dog and should the Italian authorities find out then they'll come after that person. And I think the huge ears is only in the pups, as I've seen in photos many of the adults appear to have similar ears to the Tamaskans. Though I doubt the authorities have any power towards those few that have already been exported outside of Italy.

Edit:
Other than the politics involved in the protection of the Lupo, I don't think the breed would be a bad choice to outcross. I mean they behave more like domestic dogs and act nothing like wolves. I personally think adding this breed would improve on the Search and Rescue instinct part for the Tamaskan because the Lupo is famous for that along with it's friendliness. Though, this is just my opinion.



It's in Italian.
Image

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Booma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:48 pm

The dog on that website has huge ears.
Image Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Kyliedelonge wrote:The dog on that website has huge ears.
yep, they have huge ears... looks to be about 3/4 length on the widest part of the skull... GSD have small ears in comparison and they have big ears :D
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:19 pm

To me they look a whole lot like GSD's..

>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Taz » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:30 pm

I think more important than ear size, is wether or not you want to introduce trates such as mistrust of strangers and protectiveness into the tamaskan breed.

Those trates are not an issue for me, but, is that a direction you want to take?
Combine those trates with some of the independence described in the character of some tams, and you could find issues with puppy owners who may not be able, despite their best efforts to provide the extensive socialisation and training to a dog with such a combo.
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5203
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:38 pm

Taz wrote:I think more important than ear size, is wether or not you want to introduce trates such as mistrust of strangers and protectiveness into the tamaskan breed.

Those trates are not an issue for me, but, is that a direction you want to take?
Combine those trates with some of the independence described in the character of some tams, and you could find issues with puppy owners who may not be able, despite their best efforts to provide the extensive socialisation and training to a dog with such a combo.
I totally agree... the character is totally different and not something I'd like to see in the Tamaskan! With regards to temperament, we need the exact opposite!
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:40 am

Hmm, maybe you're right. :| I felt that a little bit more of that independent thinking from the German Shepherd, as the Lupo is full of them, might benefit some of the future Tamaskans IF there was to be a new branch focused strictly on a working and search and rescue line and the other remaining within the sled dog line, much like how there are show dogs for Siberian Huskies, and then there's the serious and strictly working Huskies (such as the Seppala Siberian Sleddog*), and there was (at least back in the past) hunter's assistance Huskies, though I can see what you mean by people complaining about their serious-minded dogs becoming disobedient should the Lupo be integrated carelessly. I know we already do have some Tamaskans in the search and rescue programs as shown in those other threads. As far as I recall, the German Shepherd does exist in the Tamaskan's ancestry as you've acknowledged on the official site but based on what I'm seeing in the phenotype, the GSD has clearly been so diluted. I'm not saying that the Tamaskan's current appearance and temperament is bad, I like it the way it is and the way you've made it this far. But my concern, based on my understanding, is that there's a good chance that the independent-thinking portion from the Siberian Husky and Malamute sides might be greatly outweighing the steady and more serious-minded side of the diluted German Shepherd genes which is what allows that breed to be more suitable for a search and rescue dog as well as a guard dog. But the GSD seems barely visible... well, I just thought that maybe a little more of that GSD's serious-minded part from either that breed or from a similar breed like the Lupo or Kunming (not too much, just a little so that they can be more easily trained) might open more doors for some better future Tamaskan rescue dogs. I'm not suggesting that we should transform the Tamaskan from a friendly social dog to a shy German Shepherd-like mutt. No, I'm more like saying that maybe it may be better to at least have a balance between the sleddog and the search and rescue instinct but in order for that there would also be a need to balance both the friendliness towards stranger and wild-like temperament with the serious and more steady temperament like in the GSD. I mean, yes, the Husky and Malamute CAN be trained for search and rescue too, I don't deny that, but their more wild and independent-thinking side seems to make it more difficult for these tasks. The wild nature is the reason why my Snoopy liked to roam whenever given the opportunity even after a 1 hr long walk back then. On the good side, it least the Husky and Malamute gave the Tamaskan the proper endurance in the cold climate and like you I want to keep that too. :) I felt that since the Lupo also has it then it might slightly reinforce that rescue instinct, but in the end, all of this is just an idea and there's no way am I actually going to risk breeding a serious-minded dog breed into ANY dog (not just Tamaskans) without first consulting you for advice. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppala_Siberian_Sleddog
Image

User avatar
Lynwae
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:37 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Lynwae » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:58 am

http://www.wolfshunde-wolfhunde.de/mein ... _jade.html

I don't read well the german, but somenone could maybe tell us what is doing this breeder? I didn't know that wolfdogs were authorized in Germany. These are dog? Or what?
Anyway, they are very handsome.

Rahne

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:08 am

Lynwae wrote:http://www.wolfshunde-wolfhunde.de/mein ... _jade.html

I don't read well the german, but somenone could maybe tell us what is doing this breeder? I didn't know that wolfdogs were authorized in Germany. These are dog? Or what?
Anyway, they are very handsome.
It seems they own American Wolfdogs and Czech Wolfdogs. If I remember correctly it depends on the part you live in Germany, every 'state' has different regulations. And in some cases you will need licenses to own Wolfdogs.

User avatar
Lynwae
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:37 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Lynwae » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:16 am

Ok, thanks Rahne :)

User avatar
Gaby
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:08 am
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands

Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by Gaby » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:54 pm

In an other topic we discussed possible outcross ideas. I came up with the Australian Kelpie. I know each Kelpie is different, but I happen to know one very well and he is an outstanding dog.

A friend of mine has this working Kelpie, who is very big for a Kelpie (26 kilo's). He is bigger than Mila. Around 62 cm? I should have to measure him to be sure. He is beautiful build and is now almost 3 years old.
His looks are of course different than the Tamaskan, his ears are too big and his coat too short. But he is build very nice and he has the best temperament in a dog I have ever seen. Sociable towards people, children, dogs and other animals, trainable and easygoing. But he is an active dog, he has to be kept busy with fysical and mental exercise. You can do every sport with him, he can do everything and listens to everybody. He is now working the sheep and does that very well too.

A Kelpie is a very healthy breed. This dog is not health tested and has no pedigree (because it is a working Kelpie), but his father comes from the finest Australian lines. When he was a year old he had broken his paw, after an accident with a horse, and has been x-rayed. He has been x-rayed again two weeks ago, his hips too and it seemed (not official of course) that his hips are perfect. I know the owner would be open to suggestions for using her dog and do all the health tests with him if we would want it.
I know that if I would have a litter with Mila and this dog, even if they wouldn't be very Tamaskanlike, I would want a puppy because their temperaments will be outstanding. And I don't think that of all dogs, lol. It is just a thought of course and I open to discuss everything, but I think he will produce dogs that have trainabillity and have nice social characters.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is his brother, you can see him playing with a 'normal sized' Kelpie, you can see he is bigger too. http://www.hondenforum.nl/plaza/viewtop ... 6&t=221174

User avatar
Gaby
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:08 am
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands

Re: Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by Gaby » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:56 pm

And these are pictures Rahne made of him: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2824 :D

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:59 pm

He looks sweet :P
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by HiTenshi16 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:41 pm

I myself would not see an Australian Kelpie added as an outcross, especially one that does not have a pedigree as I would like to know how the parent and grandparents were (health, temperament, ect.).
Image

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by Booma » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:55 pm

Wow he is huge for a kelpie. Would you really want to ad a black and tan, or would you look for a solid black? Kelpies are nice dogs, but very full on. Would looking at show lines be better since then there would be a proper pedigree and (I would assume) health tests. I've also seen kelpies with a longer coat, would you look for one Like that?
Image Image

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: Outcross possibility: Australian Kelpie

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:05 am

He is gorgeous and huge for the breed. His body shape seems to be similar to Tamaskan. Could you get info on his parents?
Wonder what the pluses and minus would be to and outcross like this beside the workability? I am interested to hear more about this dog.

Post Reply