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Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:27 am
by blufawn
As everyone is taking such a great interest in who Winnie is being mated to I thought id start her own thread.
I have scoured the internet for a suitable black grey dog for her and come up with diddly squat.
I have hunted around the NI, Ute, British Ute, Anglo Wolfdog breeds and not found a single suitable mate for her (although I have seen some lovely grey dogs).
I have had a brief look through the black GSD's and Belgian Shepherds and still come up with nothing.

The only male I have seen that I quite like is a black GSD with no health tests and we know how unhealthy GSD's can be. I am in the process of asking for more info on if his parents were hip scored.

In the meantime I thought id ask you guys if you know of or have seen any suitable black males around? Remember they have to be in the UK (pref with no white anywhere) as I dont trust AI.

Also remember that Winnie is an unregistered crossbreed and any puppies produced would be labelled the same and so top quality show kennels will likely tell me to get lost.

Id appreciate your help in this matter, I know more heads are better than one....

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:25 pm
by Nino
I know he is not black nor in UK, but Susann's partner own a beautiful male (who's name have escaped me right now) that had a litter with several puppies I would categorize in the "black" category..

I have though a question for you.
Can you be a 100% sure that the black color of Winnie isn't a dominant one, not like that of the Tamaskan?
I am unsure if the * carries the black as recessive or dominant, and when looking at it I came no closer to the answer..

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:39 pm
by juice
if you don't mind cwd i have found a site and they have some nice lookers.
www.orkwolf.co.uk (or could be .com) :?

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:00 pm
by Nino
It's .com and I'm sad.. I cannot see it on my phone :-(

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:19 pm
by TerriHolt
They do have some pretty good lucking dogs on there...

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:44 pm
by blufawn
I am not opposed to Czech or other such breeds however the idea is to produce black grey Tamaskan AND new bloodlines and so kill two birds with one stone.
I have never seen a dog of the same colouring as Winnie so its a fluke all round really, Winnies grandparents are mainly white.
I would not know if Winnies colour will come through in her puppies but I think to get the best chance she should be mated to a black dog pref with black behind them. I was hoping to find a distant relative from the black (Taz) line of NI, but I cant find one, ive noticed there is trouble in these breeds at the moment and some of the clubs have shut down and all the black greys seems to have disappeared.
I am leaning more to the black GSD if only because they have no white on their chests which is a pet hate of mine with the Tamaskan, I know they have large ears but Winnies are very tiny. They also have straight tails where Winnies is quite curly.
I have steered away from the Belgian Shepherd because I would like to add size to Winnie as she is only petite and the Belgian shepherd does not have as good bone and size as the GSD.
Of course downfalls would be black and tan or piebald puppies and the most worrying, bad hips or banana back pups (the typical over exaggerated sloping back the GSD is known for, and not in a good way). Winnies hips are a 9.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:52 pm
by blufawn
Something like this.......
Although a mating of Winnie to a GSD would not immediately produce perfect Tamaskan looking pups if a female was kept and mated to a dog such as Bodie or Maverick I think we could shape out a rather nice looking chunky dog and the good thing is that the female could be mated to almost ANY Tamaskan with only Zuul in its pedigree.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:08 pm
by Rahne
I have heard a lot of good things about the French GSD/White Swiss kennel 'Legend of Darkness'. Several of these dogs are being used in the Blue Bay Shepherd. This kennel owns one Solid Black GSD stud, health tested and DNA profiled:

http://www.lesgardiensdupacte.com/berge ... te_as.html

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 pm
by Blustag
These are nice dogs and glad to see no banana backs. German Shepherds were my one true love before the arcticbreeds and I
never thought I would ever give them up but due to their continuing health problems I did, Arcticbreeds being much healthier.
These blacks though are lovely and tempting :lol:

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:09 pm
by Blustag
I think if Jenny was to travel to Europe she would need to be sure she has people interested in the puppies first though... Just my
opinion ;)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:22 pm
by Ciaobella
That GSD male is beautiful! Love his fluffy black coat, gorgeous :)

Can I ask a question, I've always been confused about Winnie as I'm still learning. So Winnie is not a tamaskan? What is she crossed with may I ask? I just always assumed she was. And what would the goal be for these puppies? To be foundations?

Sorry, I'm still new to this whole thing and have lots of questions!

Re: Winnie

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:07 am
by Booma
Yes Winnie was from an accidental double mating. The rest of the litter was fathered by jackal. I think it's up to the future owners of these pups to either fight for them to be recognised, or for them to become a foundation dog.
Unfortunately Balto has Zuul behind him, so a puppy from Winnie wouldn't work for me :(

Re: Winnie

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:56 am
by Gaby
I think it is a very good idea! I do not want a Tamaskan now, but if I would, I would definately would like to have such a puppy. Very good choise to broaden the gene pool Jennie! Also with introducing more Shepherd to the bloodlines it would be good for the characters and trainabillity I think. I hope you can find a nice male! :D

Re: Winnie

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:49 am
by Ciaobella
Kylievr wrote:Yes Winnie was from an accidental double mating. The rest of the litter was fathered by jackal. I think it's up to the future owners of these pups to either fight for them to be recognised, or for them to become a foundation dog.
Unfortunately Balto has Zuul behind him, so a puppy from Winnie wouldn't work for me :(

I see I see, very interesting :)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:45 pm
by shurr
Sorry if this is a bad suggestion, what about the mahlek pawnee ammik? or the one right below him, Nookie.

http://www.mahleknortherninuits.co.uk/myboys.htm

Both are pretty black looking, aswell as the bottom one kye.

They all could be blacker ofcourse, but hey, might get lucky =p

Re: Winnie

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:00 pm
by Blustag
shurr wrote:Sorry if this is a bad suggestion, what about the mahlek pawnee ammik? or the one right below him, Nookie.

http://www.mahleknortherninuits.co.uk/myboys.htm

Both are pretty black looking, aswell as the bottom one kye.

They all could be blacker ofcourse, but hey, might get lucky =p
Thanks for the link but we wouldnt use any of the mahlek dogs.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 pm
by shurr
oh ok, can I ask why? just curious!

Re: Winnie

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:40 pm
by Blustag
I have pm'd you

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:18 am
by Tiantai
I THINK a Dutch Shepherd that's all black might also work.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:24 am
by Katlin
Blustag wrote:I have pm'd you
I'd also like to know... if that's ok.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:30 pm
by arianwenarie
Katlin wrote:
Blustag wrote:I have pm'd you
I'd also like to know... if that's ok.
Ditto to that. So me too, please?

It seems I am a very curious person. :lol:

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:50 pm
by Tiantai
I've been looking at the ANCD and was thinking maybe one of those black dogs might be a good addition.
But you'd have to get Ann's approval before making such a cross because she's quite sensitive.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:51 pm
by arianwenarie
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I've been looking at the ANCD and was thinking maybe one of those black dogs might be a good addition.
But you'd have to get Ann's approval before making such a cross because she's quite sensitive.
Not to mention the fact that the only ANCD overseas is the one in Germany (Cola/Cinnabar)...? And still a puppy at that. lol.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:06 pm
by Nino
arianwenarie wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I've been looking at the ANCD and was thinking maybe one of those black dogs might be a good addition.
But you'd have to get Ann's approval before making such a cross because she's quite sensitive.
Not to mention the fact that the only ANCD overseas is the one in Germany (Cola/Cinnabar)...? And still a puppy at that. lol.
AND that it is white :lol:

Re: Winnie

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:20 pm
by arianwenarie
Nino wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I've been looking at the ANCD and was thinking maybe one of those black dogs might be a good addition.
But you'd have to get Ann's approval before making such a cross because she's quite sensitive.
Not to mention the fact that the only ANCD overseas is the one in Germany (Cola/Cinnabar)...? And still a puppy at that. lol.
AND that it is white :lol:
LOLYES. I forgot to mention that part too. XD

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:26 am
by Tiantai
Just to clarify, I never said that all ANCD are black, but yeah, that one dog in Germany won't make a suitable stud. Perhaps if more people can help Ann promote her breed first, we can then start introducing some to the genepool and hopefully revive the black coat of the Tamaskan breed. Though at the moment Ann wants to do all the breeding and slowly work her way so the least we can do is support her without breeding the dogs.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:32 am
by AZDehlin
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Just to clarify, I never said that all ANCD are black, but yeah, that one dog in Germany won't make a suitable stud. Perhaps if more people can help Ann promote her breed first, we can then start introducing some to the genepool and hopefully revive the black coat of the Tamaskan breed
More then coat color needs to be taken into account. The ANCD may not have any health issue, besides being susceptible to bloat. But from talking with owners of the breed they can be very shy and I know this is already a problem in some Tamaskan. I have looked into getting a black phase ANCD and the only thing other than money holding me back is the shyness... If a black phase boy comes along that it is more of and extrovert than and introvert I will defiantly add one to my pack as I think they look a lot more wolfy than the black grey Tamaskan.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:39 am
by Tiantai
Remember Kate, shyness CAN be reduced in after generations with careful breeding.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:46 am
by arianwenarie
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Remember Kate, shyness CAN be reduced in after generations with careful breeding.
While I believe that's true, Lucas, I also believe that temperament is a tricky thing to 'breed out', in this instance. There's always the chance that it will take many generations if one takes a conservative route...and that's all in theory, in my mind anyway.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:48 am
by AZDehlin
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Remember Kate, shyness CAN be reduced in after generations with careful breeding.
Yes I know, but we already have this issue. Adding ANCD might make shyness issues worse. Most of the people who own these dogs that I have talked with would say they are more introverted. I don't want a house dog, I want a dog that can go with me places and wanna meet everyone. The phased male Ann had that I looked into getting I was told was shy of men and would do better in a quiet country setting where there are not a lot of strangers. This is not what I wanted so I declined even though he was gorgeous. I have thought ANCD could be an option to add but it isn't as clear cut as when I started my research.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:09 am
by Tiantai
Alright this is getting a bit off topic now but I think when it comes to shy dogs they're better to be brought outside more often as pups than to be kept inside the house. I've dealt with a shy Rottweiler, one chow, and an extremely nervous rough collie in the past and getting along with them all took time. But the dogs were absolutely friendly with their neighbours as a result of being familliar with them and the collie often ignored strangers on walks without showing aggressions. If a shy dog is bred with a non-shy dog, and although you never know as you might end up with some shy and some open, theoretically selecting the non-shy pups can also further reduce the chances of passing those shy personalities from the grandparent down the line. Remember these are just my opinions. Thing is, every dog has shyness but some just have it to a certain level, but it CAN be reduced. If mankind could reduce the shyness of certain breeds like the Malamute through selections and environmental condition, it's not impossible for Ann to do the same with her ANCD nor is it impossible to integrate this breed into the Tamaskan without accidentally promoting the shyness already existing in some Tamaskans. YES, I KNOW that there is MORE than just this and I don't mean to sound too optimistic about this idea, but I'm just trying to make my point that it's not impossible to breed out the shyness in the breed ;)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:04 am
by Blustag
I know this is right off topic but I'd just like to add that is is absolutely possible to mate a shy bitch to an outgoing male and vice versa.
I had this same issue when I lived in Finland with one of my huskies. She was beautiful and would have made a Champion for sure but
she wouldnt let anyone other than the family near her. I mated her to one of my outgoing boys and her puppies went on to do
wonders in the ring and none were shy nor in future generations. Some of her pups and subseqent litters are now here in UK and
being bred from (not me) and all doing well.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:00 pm
by arianwenarie
Blustag wrote:I know this is right off topic but I'd just like to add that is is absolutely possible to mate a shy bitch to an outgoing male and vice versa.
I had this same issue when I lived in Finland with one of my huskies. She was beautiful and would have made a Champion for sure but
she wouldnt let anyone other than the family near her. I mated her to one of my outgoing boys and her puppies went on to do
wonders in the ring and none were shy nor in future generations. Some of her pups and subseqent litters are now here in UK and
being bred from (not me) and all doing well.
LOL. I didn't say it was impossible, just that IMO, with temperament it can be a bit tricky to fix because it's not a clear cut formula. :P I'm glad to hear that you had such success in the first mating. 8-)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:19 pm
by Nino
I would rather that we waited for a few generations with adding ANCD as it looks now..
All ANCD owners I have talked with so far, report of at least shyness/timidness, some even tell of scared individuals and I heard talking of one that reported even Terror in when around strangers..
While I find that ut can be bred out, I don't think that now seems to be the right time for introducing such into the breed, taking one step forward and going two steps back it would be to me..
BUT if an outgoing ANCD (male) could be found and bred to a very people friendly female (a lot is also learned by the pups by watching mom nteracting and reacting I believe) and then the pups being kept a close eye on to see how they evolve.. Then it could be an experiment..

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:25 pm
by TerriHolt
Nino wrote:(a lot is also learned by the pups by watching mom nteracting and reacting I believe)
I was thinking about that... Wondering how outgoing an ANDC pup would be if removed form mum and bottle fed (and if Ann would be willing to do it)? Or ideally given to an outgoing bitch who had just had a litter... But i don't think that would be possible...

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:29 pm
by Sylvaen
I would be interested in a male pup (ideally DM clear) from Winni, if a suitable sire could be found. I'm not too fussed about color (wolf grey or black grey is fine) - I'm just looking for a 'fresh' bloodline that would look more 'wolfy' than 'Germany Shepherdy' - with small ears and a good tail. ;)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:01 pm
by Kootenaywolf
TerriHolt wrote:
Nino wrote:(a lot is also learned by the pups by watching mom nteracting and reacting I believe)
I was thinking about that... Wondering how outgoing an ANDC pup would be if removed form mum and bottle fed (and if Ann would be willing to do it)? Or ideally given to an outgoing bitch who had just had a litter... But i don't think that would be possible...
Well, I don't think this would have much of a difference because the mother is very friendly with Ann so that's what the pups see. ANCDs are not shy with "their" people at all. And by the time the pups are having outside interaction probably mom isn't around so much. But I don't know...maybe!

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:10 pm
by blufawn
I would not be happy mating Winnie with an ANCD. Because of the colouring of the ANCD ancestry and the colouring of Winnies ancestry I think this would lead to piebald or mismarked puppies rather than black grey, Id rather use a dog that has a history of black behind them, after all I know of no blacks in Winnies history, she is a fluke and although she only had one pups to Jackal, it was grey!

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:21 pm
by AZDehlin
arianwenarie wrote:
Blustag wrote:I know this is right off topic but I'd just like to add that is is absolutely possible to mate a shy bitch to an outgoing male and vice versa.
I had this same issue when I lived in Finland with one of my huskies. She was beautiful and would have made a Champion for sure but
she wouldnt let anyone other than the family near her. I mated her to one of my outgoing boys and her puppies went on to do
wonders in the ring and none were shy nor in future generations. Some of her pups and subseqent litters are now here in UK and
being bred from (not me) and all doing well.
LOL. I didn't say it was impossible, just that IMO, with temperament it can be a bit tricky to fix because it's not a clear cut formula. :P I'm glad to hear that you had such success in the first mating. 8-)
I also do not think it is a clear cut formula. My Zephyr has a lot of shyness issues, especially around men. This is despite going out in public and socializing him with the collage courses I help teach ( 5 days a week) and taking him to every family gathering. I don't think this is a fluke, but this is more likely because Nana is also shy around strangers.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:36 pm
by Nino
blufawn wrote:I would not be happy mating Winnie with an ANCD. Because of the colouring of the ANCD ancestry and the colouring of Winnies ancestry I think this would lead to piebald or mismarked puppies rather than black grey, Id rather use a dog that has a history of black behind them, after all I know of no blacks in Winnies history, she is a fluke and although she only had one pups to Jackal, it was grey!
I would suggest that you got her tested for Dominant Black (K) so that you know if it's the black we have in the Tamaskan (a/a) or the the Dominant black that is found in other breeds and came from her father (which he could be without being able to see because of the color he has)

it wouldn't matter much breeding her to ex. a Black GSD if she was dominant black, since it's not the same genes that are affected.

And the one puppy she had with Jackal isn't really enough to represent a mathematical clue (since if she is dominant black half her puppies with Jackal in theory should have been black)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:48 pm
by blufawn
I dont see how she could be dominant black when as far back as we know on mums side is grey and as far back as I know on dad side there is mainly white but none are even solid colours

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:53 pm
by Nino
Jennie I will PM you in a sec :)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:20 pm
by Blustag
AZDehlin wrote: I also do not think it is a clear cut formula. My Zephyr has a lot of shyness issues, especially around men. This is despite going out in public and socializing him with the collage courses I help teach ( 5 days a week) and taking him to every family gathering. I don't think this is a fluke, but this is more likely because Nana is also shy around strangers.
Yes I cant explain this at all but Nanna has had puppies before and all were fine and outgoing many being shown and some have
done very well in the racing world. Nothing written in stone of course but I do hope that Zephyr comes right in time :D

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:07 pm
by Lynwae
And what about this little guy? :D

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:24 pm
by AZDehlin
Blustag wrote:
AZDehlin wrote: I also do not think it is a clear cut formula. My Zephyr has a lot of shyness issues, especially around men. This is despite going out in public and socializing him with the collage courses I help teach ( 5 days a week) and taking him to every family gathering. I don't think this is a fluke, but this is more likely because Nana is also shy around strangers.
Yes I cant explain this at all but Nanna has had puppies before and all were fine and outgoing many being shown and some have
done very well in the racing world. Nothing written in stone of course but I do hope that Zephyr comes right in time :D

Zephyr isn't the only puppy from this mating that has these issues... To my knowledge 3 puppies from this combo have had shyness issues. How many other puppies has nana produced and what races where the successful ones in?

Re: Winnie

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:40 pm
by Blustag
Lynwae wrote:And what about this little guy? :D
He is a real cutie :D

Re: Winnie

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:52 am
by LizBrown
This is Winnie and Jackal's pup Oscar (aka Crazy Peanut) at 7 month. By far the most responsive and easy to train dog we have ever had.

Re: Winnie

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:59 am
by Tiantai
Aww so handsome. I was wondering what became of Peanut for a while :D :D

Re: Winnie

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:12 pm
by juice
he has turned into a handsome fella :)

Re: Winnie

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:05 am
by wen
if I remember well he's not really a pure tamaskan, but a cross as winnie was crossed with a canadia eskimo dog, that could explain his massive shape, heritated from his grand'pa ?