International Tamaskan Forum

Hi there ^^

I am French so English is obviously not my mother tongue.
I apologize in advance if I may write some broken English :p

I am not a Tamaskan owner but I am more an more interested by this breed and even more by this adventure you are living by creating a new dog breed. And what a wolfish dog breed !
I knew for years the Czech wolf dog (is it the name in English ? I just directly translate from the French "chien-loup tchécoslovaque) or the Sarloos wolf dog but I always was kind of unconvinced by 1. their very primitive/difficult personality, very unrecommended for not 'dog expert' 2. the skinny German Shepherd look they often have (I especially don't appreaciate the long ears).
So when I discovered the Tamaskan dog, I was so pleased to read the simple and clear objective of the breed : having a beautiful dog looking like a wolf BUT with a easy/pleasant dog personality
Congratulations for all the beautiful work you've done so far !

At first, I registered myself on the forum to learn more about this new ongoing breed and the breeding work you are doing. I am curious to understand the process of selection for "new blood line" in purpose of increasing the genetic diversity in the Tamaskan breed.
Then I started to read topics in the Breeding section and I realised that you often talked about possibly adding some Groenendael blood in the pool. I was a bit surprised to understand that this mix seems to not be so often used so far because I saw that one of the fundation dogs really looks like a Groenendael.
I saw that "recently" (2015), in the famous Sylvaen kennel, they used a White German Shepherd (in French we said "Berger Blanc Suisse" = "White Swiss Shepherd") for one of their litter (Aurora Litter 2015). In my opinion (but I am not a dog expert and I don't pretend to be, sorry if my English may sounds rude ), Groenendael may also be a good addition to the pool. Comparing to White German Shepherd, they have smaller ears, thinner and more wolfy muzzle, same kind of fur...

Why do I suddendly advocate for Groenendael ?
Because if I am not a Tamaskan owner, I am a very happy Groenendael owner so of course I think there are amazing dogs (like every happy owner should feel about their dog, right ? )
He is on my profile pic, his name is Minuit (Midnight in French) and he will be 8 months at the end of September ^^
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eeo9T ... 00-h622-rw
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/2Gatx ... w1200-h622

So, when I discovered on your forum that some of you may be interested with a mix with Groenendael, even for just a trial, some crazy project started to grow in my head (with a lot of "IF", of course).
But I am the kind of person who plan/learn a lot before doing something so I guess I am in the right place to ask questions and received advices first before thinking too far for nothing ^^

IF Minuit have good health tests (I know it is not before he is 1 year old ^^) : DM, dysplasia (hips and elbows), eyes checking (what else ?)
IF he matches with what the TDR is looking for outcross stud (is it the right term ?)
Do you think it is a reasonable idea to think about adding him in the adventure of the Tamaskan breed ?
I mean, he is only 8 months so I am just asking to know your opinions, advices, warning about this idea
I know I am new and I really don't want to appear like a foolish girl who comes with her stupid ideas But as my grandma always says : "There is no shame to ask."

Sorry for this very long presentation and thanks for those who had the courage to read it all ! :p

bienvenue! Your English is very good and I would not consider it broken at all.
A groenendael was added last year and all 5 pups were (in my opinion) quite lovely.

Thank you for your welcoming and your kindness about my English ^^

Do you have any link to website/facebook page/forum topic/whatever else about this groenendael mix litter, please ? I am very curious to have a look on what the lovely puppies (i don't doubt of it :p) look like, if they have met the expectations of their breeder (or not ?), the positive and negative of this mix...?
Thanks (even if you not have link :p)

Here is the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/919938708138586/

Thank you very much for yiur quuck reply and the link ! I just ask to the group if they can add me

Thanks !

Welcome
I was one of the advocates to have a Groenendaeler added as outcross! I was so happy when we found a Groenendael female in the Netherlands for an outcross litter. I know many people had doubts... but I was always convinced it would be an awesome outcross, and those pups have not dissapointed me! I certainly would not be against another Groenendael outcross mating in the future.

Hi Wolfsbane and thanks for your welcoming ^^
So, were you part of this crossing with a Groenendael ? Did you use your Tamaskan for this cross ? Are the pups now registered as proper Tamaskan ? I wish I could see some pictures :p
I'm so curious, sorry ^///
I asked to the facebook Tamaskan group Booma put in link but I'm still waiting to be accepted :p

NekoCitron wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:31 pm

Hi Wolfsbane and thanks for your welcoming ^^
So, were you part of this crossing with a Groenendael ? Did you use your Tamaskan for this cross ? Are the pups now registered as proper Tamaskan ? I wish I could see some pictures :p
I'm so curious, sorry ^///
I asked to the facebook Tamaskan group Booma put in link but I'm still waiting to be accepted :p

Well I met with the female to determine if she were going to make a suitable outcross, which I was positive about, and also helped look for a Tamaskan male to sire the litter. I own a female Tamaskan that turned out to be unsuitable for breeding... so no, my Tamaskan was not used for this cross. They are registered on conditional registration, which is standard for all outcross litters. Once they pass all health testing etc. they can get full registration.

Found some pics online:




Mom Inara (Groenendaeler) on the right




With dad Ravi (Tamaskan)

Oh ! WOW !! They are beautiful !
Thanks Wolfsbane for sharing these pictures and for your involvement in this very nice cross !

I appreciate in particular the picture with their mom : we can really see that they genetically share something but how much the pups are bigger/stronger/wolfish than their mom.
Interesting to see that they took her nice thin muzzle

So, actually, the Groenendael solid black color is not "that" dominant, isn't it ? It looks like the pup have a dark/black (is it black grey ?) coat but with a lighter undercoat (?)
They seem to have a shorter coat than her Mom too, but a bit longer than their Dad ? Do they ? They kept their dad's short hair on their ears too.

This is really interesting ! Thanks !

'We' were hoping for a nice mix. Dogs with long legs but a bit more bulk than purebred Groenendael, good sized ears, straight tails, nice slender muzzles but a bit less extreme as Groenendael. I think all of them turned out really nice and as we hoped! As for the colour, we expected (and hoped for!) that the dominant black mixed with agouti (aw) would give a black coat with 'grey phasing'. Making them look like black phase wild wolves in coloring. Fully solid black is unwanted in the Tamaskan. Some pups have more of this 'phasing' look than others from the litter.

Well, it is very nice litter then ^^
I hope they could be registered as proper Tamaskan when it will be time so they could participate to increase the gene diversity in Tamaskan dogs

Kind of encouraging in my "crazy idea" (IF Minuit is suitable) ;p

Thank you again for all these informations Wolfsbane ^^

Welcome to the forum!

Sorry for the slow response, I've been so wrapped up with puppies and other priorities lately that I haven't been posted on the forum in ages. Unfortunately, the forum isn't that active these days; however, I've decided to take a step back from the gazillion+ FB groups just to focus on the forum instead, from now on (just like the good old days). Lately, I find it's getting almost impossible to follow all the groups on FB as there are just so many (some countries even have multiple groups of different factions) and many breeders have their various groups too. It's so incredibly time-consuming to keep track of everything... not to mention, pretty much impossible to try to find any old posts for reference (the FB search algorithm is a nightmare). So I'm going to "unfollow" all the FB groups and do my part to revive this forum instead, and I'm hoping you'll stick around to see it pick up again.

Anyway, your English is great... much better than my French! Also, thanks so much for your kind words! The Tamaskan breed is definitely still a "work in progress" (to create a wolf-lookalike with the best possible temperament) so we're always open to potentially suitable new outcrosses.

I am one of the members of the Committee of Breeders that approved the recent Groenendael in the Netherlands (Inara) as an official TDR outcross. I'm very happy with how the litter turned out and my only concerns are that, once it became public that Inara had been added as an outcross, we had a few complaints about epilepsy within the Groenendael breed (apparently it is relatively widespread, to the point that there's even an online Groenendael epilepsy database?) Also, one of the male puppies from that litter turned out to be cryptorchid.

Therefore, if any other Groenendael will be added as an outcross for the breed, it would be good if it is unrelated (as much as possible) to the Groenendael that was already added (Inara) AND that it also comes from a bloodline that is clear of epilepsy and cryptorchidism (if possible).

NekoCitron wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:06 am

IF Minuit have good health tests (I know it is not before he is 1 year old ^^) : DM, dysplasia (hips and elbows), eyes checking (what else ?)
IF he matches with what the TDR is looking for outcross stud (is it the right term ?)
Do you think it is a reasonable idea to think about adding him in the adventure of the Tamaskan breed ?
I mean, he is only 8 months so I am just asking to know your opinions, advices, warning about this idea

Yes, I am open to the idea and I'm sure the rest of the CoB would be interested too. We are currently in the process of updating the outcross procedure to make it more streamlined / easier for people to submit potential outcross proposals for review.
What is your male's registered name? Is he in the online Groenendael database?

Wolfsbane wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:52 pm

'We' were hoping for a nice mix. Dogs with long legs but a bit more bulk than purebred Groenendael, good sized ears, straight tails, nice slender muzzles but a bit less extreme as Groenendael. I think all of them turned out really nice and as we hoped! As for the colour, we expected (and hoped for!) that the dominant black mixed with agouti (aw) would give a black coat with 'grey phasing'. Making them look like black phase wild wolves in coloring. Fully solid black is unwanted in the Tamaskan. Some pups have more of this 'phasing' look than others from the litter.

Indeed. However, it's just worth noting that the original breed founders (in particular, the Blus) advocated for "pure black" (solid black) Tams with as little white spots as possible... I don't think they took phasing into account. For that matter, there are various different ways to achieve the "Black Grey" coloring: dominant black + agouti; agouti + black & tan or recessive black (can result in very dark agouti coloring); black & tan; recessive black (with or without grizzle/domino coat)... however, only recessive black (without grizzle/domino coat) causes solid black coloration.

Sylvaen wrote:Lately, I find it's getting almost impossible to follow all the groups on FB as there are just so many (some countries even have multiple groups of different factions) and many breeders have their various groups too. It's so incredibly time-consuming to keep track of everything... not to mention, pretty much impossible to try to find any old posts for reference (the FB search algorithm is a nightmare). So I'm going to "unfollow" all the FB groups and do my part to revive this forum instead, and I'm hoping you'll stick around to see it pick up again.

I apologize for all the FB groups you will unfollow but, in my own opinion, this is a great news ! Maybe I am a bit "old fashion" but I prefer a lot forums than Facebook groups for constructive discussions and to debate. I must say that, as a newbie, I am a bit confused and lost with aaallll the different FB groups... Because the forum was(n't ? :p) very active, I started to follow few groups but, as you also said, I quickly am unable to find back post or information because I can remember in which group I read this or that...
Also, I think it looks more attractive and serious to have an active forum. When (serious) people are looking for information, they google first, found the official website for Tamaskan and then they can explore the forum for more information, talking with people etc. There is too many different FB groups and it is confusing for newbies like me ^^ Also, it is not as clear as for the forum that if a FB group is an official group or not ^^

Sylvaen wrote:my only concerns are that, once it became public that Inara had been added as an outcross, we had a few complaints about epilepsy within the Groenendael breed (apparently it is relatively widespread, to the point that there's even an online Groenendael epilepsy database?) Also, one of the male puppies from that litter turned out to be cryptorchid.

OMG !! I had NO IDEA about epilepsy on the Goenendael !!!
Well, I am not an expert in Groenedael or Belgian Shepherd... Actually, I discovered the breed few months before having Minuit ^^'' I (thought I) knew for years Belgian Shepherd but I belived it was only Malinois type ! I didn't know about the 4 differents types
I (thought I) did do my researches on the breed before having Minuit. I deeply explore many serious (French) Groenendael breeders website but never read anything about epilepsy in the breed... (like if breeders will claim their dogs have epilepsy... so naive I am... ^^')
Since you wrote this, I made some researches on Belgian Shepherd forum and, indeed, I read that there is some case of epilepsy, mainly in Tervueren and Groenendael U___U
I had no idea about this and now I fight with myself to not start being paranoïd about Minuit because, for what I understood, it can not be tested and it can happen at anytime in the lifetime of a dog é_è (... I still have the sad video of the czech wolfdog having an epilepsy crisis in mind... T o T)

But, I saw both Minuit parents when I took him and they both looked in good health and Minuit never showed (so far) something which could be related to epilepsy (but, as I said, it may appears later -or never- and a dog with epilepsy can look fine when he doesn't have a crisis...).
He also have his two testicules well in place, as his brothers and his father.

Sylvaen wrote:Therefore, if any other Groenendael will be added as an outcross for the breed, it would be good if it is unrelated (as much as possible) to the Groenendael that was already added (Inara) AND that it also comes from a bloodline that is clear of epilepsy and cryptorchidism (if possible).

So, here comes my concerns...

Minuit is not a LOF Groenendael (LOF = French stud book).
His parents are working dogs in a farm, both from LOF litters but none of them were confirmed because the farmers use them as working/familly dogs, not as breeding dogs. They just wanted their female Groenendael to have a litter before being sterilized. The puppies from Minuit's litter was sold at a cheap price, even for non LOF Groenendael, because it really wasn't for making money but to cover the cost of first vaccinations and microchipping of the puppies (+ various costs)

Rahne told me that Inara isn't LOF neither but I saw in the Tamaskan Data-base that she still has detailled tracks of her parents, grand-parents etc...

About Minuit, I don't have that many tracks of his blood line...
The farmers are French and Inara is in Netherland so it will be very surprising if they are related before grand-grand-grand parents but I totally understand the point and being sure is probably a good idea
I am still in touch with the farmers (I regularly send them picture of Minuit growing ) so I guess I could ask them from which breeders Minuit's parents come from but it could be nice if you can confirm this idea, I don't want to bother the farmers if it is not that necessary ^^

What is your male's registered name? Is he in the online Groenendael database? wrote:

So... His name is "Minuit" that's all ^^'
He is not in the Groenendael database, I didn't even know this exist ^^''' (omg... I feel I look so dummy now... )
I will have a look on this ^^


So... Knowing all this now, does it still looks realistic to think about proposing Minuit as an outcross ? In which order should I work to built his application ?
1. Knowing more about his bloodline ? (or health test are they more important thant bloodline for outcross ?)
2. Health tests about dysplasia, DM, eyes, does cryptorchidism can be genetically tested ?
3. DNAtest ? (will you recommand more mydogDNA or Embark ?)
4. ?

Thank you a lot for your help and for having the bravery to read this long post :p

NekoCitron wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:04 am

I apologize for all the FB groups you will unfollow but, in my own opinion, this is a great news ! Maybe I am a bit "old fashion" but I prefer a lot forums than Facebook groups for constructive discussions and to debate. I must say that, as a newbie, I am a bit confused and lost with aaallll the different FB groups... Because the forum was(n't ? :p) very active, I started to follow few groups but, as you also said, I quickly am unable to find back post or information because I can remember in which group I read this or that...
Also, I think it looks more attractive and serious to have an active forum. When (serious) people are looking for information, they google first, found the official website for Tamaskan and then they can explore the forum for more information, talking with people etc. There is too many different FB groups and it is confusing for newbies like me ^^ Also, it is not as clear as for the forum that if a FB group is an official group or not ^^

Yes, exactly

NekoCitron wrote:OMG !! I had NO IDEA about epilepsy on the Goenendael !!!
Well, I am not an expert in Groenedael or Belgian Shepherd... Actually, I discovered the breed few months before having Minuit ^^'' I (thought I) knew for years Belgian Shepherd but I belived it was only Malinois type ! I didn't know about the 4 differents types
I (thought I) did do my researches on the breed before having Minuit. I deeply explore many serious (French) Groenendael breeders website but never read anything about epilepsy in the breed... (like if breeders will claim their dogs have epilepsy... so naive I am... ^^')
Since you wrote this, I made some researches on Belgian Shepherd forum and, indeed, I read that there is some case of epilepsy, mainly in Tervueren and Groenendael U___U
I had no idea about this and now I fight with myself to not start being paranoïd about Minuit because, for what I understood, it can not be tested and it can happen at anytime in the lifetime of a dog é_è (... I still have the sad video of the czech wolfdog having an epilepsy crisis in mind... T o T)

I was also surprised to find out... unfortunately, it (epilepsy being a health issue in the Goenendael) hadn't been brought to our attention until after we approved the outcross but, hopefully, Inara's bloodline is clear. However, it also means that we have to be extra careful with any additional Goenendael outcrosses that are added to the breed, just to be safe.

NekoCitron wrote:But, I saw both Minuit parents when I took him and they both looked in good health and Minuit never showed (so far) something which could be related to epilepsy (but, as I said, it may appears later -or never- and a dog with epilepsy can look fine when he doesn't have a crisis...). He also have his two testicules well in place, as his brothers and his father.

That's good to hear.

NekoCitron wrote:Minuit is not a LOF Groenendael (LOF = French stud book).
His parents are working dogs in a farm, both from LOF litters but none of them were confirmed because the farmers use them as working/familly dogs, not as breeding dogs. They just wanted their female Groenendael to have a litter before being sterilized. The puppies from Minuit's litter was sold at a cheap price, even for non LOF Groenendael, because it really wasn't for making money but to cover the cost of first vaccinations and microchipping of the puppies (+ various costs)

Rahne told me that Inara isn't LOF neither but I saw in the Tamaskan Data-base that she still has detailled tracks of her parents, grand-parents etc...

About Minuit, I don't have that many tracks of his blood line...
The farmers are French and Inara is in Netherland so it will be very surprising if they are related before grand-grand-grand parents but I totally understand the point and being sure is probably a good idea
I am still in touch with the farmers (I regularly send them picture of Minuit growing ) so I guess I could ask them from which breeders Minuit's parents come from but it could be nice if you can confirm this idea, I don't want to bother the farmers if it is not that necessary ^^

Even if Minuit is not LOF registered, it's still necessary for the TDR to have as much detailed information about the parents, grandparents, etc as possible (the more info the better!) So if you're still in contact with the farmers then definitely try to track down as much information about his background as you can (ideally with photos of his parents and grandparents, etc). It doesn't have to be an official pedigree, even an unofficial family tree is better than nothing.

NekoCitron wrote: So... His name is "Minuit" that's all ^^'
He is not in the Groenendael database, I didn't even know this exist ^^''' (omg... I feel I look so dummy now... )
I will have a look on this ^^

No problem. OK

NekoCitron wrote: So... Knowing all this now, does it still looks realistic to think about proposing Minuit as an outcross ? In which order should I work to built his application ?
1. Knowing more about his bloodline ? (or health test are they more important thant bloodline for outcross ?)
2. Health tests about dysplasia, DM, eyes, does cryptorchidism can be genetically tested ?
3. DNAtest ? (will you recommand more mydogDNA or Embark ?)

First try to find out info about his bloodline from the farmers to get as much details as possible about his close relatives (their names, photos if possible, any health issues, etc). Then would be the health testing (hips/elbows and eyes) and DNA testing (DM). Cryptorchidism cannot be tested as there is not yet a DNA test for it. Either MyDogDNA or Embark is fine (neither is required but one or the other is good to have). Finally, any other health tests for issues that are prevalent in the Groenendael breed (MDR1, PRA, Thyroid, etc).

Sylvaen wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:47 am

I was also surprised to find out... unfortunately, it (epilepsy being a health issue in the Goenendael) hadn't been brought to our attention until after we approved the outcross but, hopefully, Inara's bloodline is clear. However, it also means that we have to be extra careful with any additional Goenendael outcrosses that are added to the breed, just to be safe.

It was mentioned in Inara's outcross proposal....

Vajente wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:19 am

It was mentioned in Inara's outcross proposal....

Unfortunately, I can't find Inara's original outcross proposal document anywhere (the FB search feature is useless as I'm fairly certain it was posted in one of the TDR/CoB groups). Anyway, I'm sure it probably was briefly mentioned in her proposal, though epilepsy exists in almost every dog breed, but I distinctly remember we had a specific discussion during one of the CoB meetings about epilepsy being relatively prevalent in the Groenendael breed after someone in the community was making complaints and stirring up a fuss about it (you know how it goes). Ultimately, I think it's not a huge issue so long as people research the bloodlines and make careful breeding decisions about which combinations to do. Awareness and knowledge are the key to making informed decisions.

It was one of our reasons to use Ravi because he has no known epilepsy risk. Inara has pretty good lines regarding the epilepsy but we knew very well that it is a problem in the breed. I wouldn't use a Groenendael from unknown lines.

Thanks a lot for your replies and good advices

As I said from the beginning, I do am motivated in the idea of involving Minuit in the Tamaskan adventure but I also do deeply respect the serious work you have all done so far So it is really not in my intention to involve him if he obviously don't fill the requirement of the comitee

I will do my best to built a valuable application for Minuit and if he can not be accepted as an Outcross it will not be such a big deal. Of course, I would love him to be accepted but if he can't, he will continue to be the amazing dog I love and Tamaskan will continue to be an amazing work in progression breed

Thanks again for your help !

Vajente wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:56 pm

It was one of our reasons to use Ravi because he has no known epilepsy risk. Inara has pretty good lines regarding the epilepsy but we knew very well that it is a problem in the breed. I wouldn't use a Groenendael from unknown lines.

That's a good point. I just think it's important for people to keep in mind for the next generation(s).

NekoCitron wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:47 pm

Thanks a lot for your replies and good advices

As I said from the beginning, I do am motivated in the idea of involving Minuit in the Tamaskan adventure but I also do deeply respect the serious work you have all done so far So it is really not in my intention to involve him if he obviously don't fill the requirement of the comitee

I will do my best to built a valuable application for Minuit and if he can not be accepted as an Outcross it will not be such a big deal. Of course, I would love him to be accepted but if he can't, he will continue to be the amazing dog I love and Tamaskan will continue to be an amazing work in progression breed

Thanks again for your help !

No problem!

Hi !

I am soooo happy today !
First, it is first Minuit's birthday <3
Then, with the great help of the farmers, I succeed to find the line of Minuit ! He has some Tervueren parents (but Tervueren and Groenendael are officially allowed to be breed together. Long story short : Groenendael and Tervueren are "the same" with a different color).

Minuit's Dad (Hidalgo) is from an official breeder so it was really easy to find his line (and I have a copy of his paper) :
Hidalgo's father : http://predelaubois.chiens-de-france.co ... 70811.html
Hidalgo's mother : http://desangesgardiensdelagrace.chiens ... 70815.html

Minuit's Mom (Lahika) is from an unofficial breeder BUT Lahika's parents are both from official breeders(I have copy of both Lahika parent's papers)

So I made a "Pedigree" for Minuit : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a2d7fI ... p=drivesdk
I was pleased to see that there is only one "inbreeding" in his lines (red square and texts)

What do you think ? Does it worth to go for the health tests ?

Happy Birthday to Minuit!
It's great news that you were able to track his family tree.
Do you know if any of his ancestors appear in the Groenendael epilepsy database?
Assuming that his bloodline is clear and he is not related to Inara, I think you could probably start the health testing process.

Hi,
I checked one by one the ancestors name in the groenendael epilepsy database and none of them appear there ^^
I also checked on the breeders' websites (when I could find one) an didn't find any claim about epilepsy.

Thanks for your help, I will start the health test in process with Minuit then

OK great, that's good to know. Good luck with the health testing.

Good luck with the testing! I might be in Paris in June / July this year. If we meet up then I can do a temperament evaluation for your outcross proposal.

Hi Booma

I would be very pleased to meet you in Paris ! And, of course, I would be very interested if you can make a temperament evaluation with Minuit, sounds awesome <3
Nyo (the lovely owner of Lumos from Sylvaen (but I don't remember his birth name, sorry) and Nox (Fin Raziel) from Le Lignage met Minuit with Nox a couple of weeks ago, it was really interesting ^^

In June I will be for sure in Paris but in July I will be in the South of France (first week of July I will be in Paris)

Keep in touch

I'm hoping to meet nox and lumos, as well as nox's sister Runi. My dog is uncle to those puppies.

NekoCitron wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:13 pm

Lumos from Sylvaen (but I don't remember his birth name, sorry)

Sylvaen Greyjoy

Alaska (Sylvaen Cindersoot) also lives nearby.