Stumped

All topics pertaining to the sale of TDR registered Tamaskan puppies / adults, as well as international shipping.
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feeneyjj
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Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Tue May 29, 2012 8:26 pm

My wife and I should both have retired by this time next year. At that point, we are planning to get a dog or two -- something we have been deterred from doing so far by our frequent overseas assignments. We have a house on 100 acres in Virginia, but also have a house in Washington DC and will not be spending all our time in the country when we are retired.

A siberian husky is one of the dogs I was thinking of getting. Then I stumbled on the Tamaskan and this site, and decided a Tamaskan might be an even better choice. Later, as I was exploring where one could buy one, I came across the slew of accusations and counter-accusations among those representing the three main groups of Tamaskan breeders. As an uninformed observer from a distance, it is quite impossible for me to dis-entangle the bitter rhetoric that seems to imbue this skein of email exchanges.

But, leaving aside the question whether wolves or wolf-dogs have contributed to the Tamaskan in the relatively recent past, one thing appears to be clear: all the breeders have been in receipt of breed dogs that have one or more genetic defects -- and have used them, knowingly or not, in their programs. No one seems able to offer compelling evidence that the offspring being offered for sale have been rigorously tested and found free of these defects.

Question: where to go from here?

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Re: Stumped

Post by Dozer » Tue May 29, 2012 8:38 pm

I only know two of you mean and that is this group and my own Aatu breeder.
As far as I read and hear from my own breeder the most breeders do the necessarily test that you can do.
There is no breed without defects.
a good breeder no matter what kind of breed will do these test and give you the proof of them. Defects you can not test will be told by a good breeder that it is in one of the lines and will find a line to breed on that line that have not that defect. potantinal carriers do they call them, not proven that they have it but because it is in the line. But of course not all that for example do not breed tell if the dog has an defect so all is not known by the breeders no matter how hard they try to avoid defects........

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Re: Stumped

Post by AZDehlin » Tue May 29, 2012 8:58 pm

It can take a while to dis-entangle all truth and lies that have been put out into the public. This is the short version of what I have heard. RPK or the "American Tamaskan" got a hold of three tamaskan's ( two female, one male) He did not follow the rules that the tamaskan dog register has put forth for the breed and was kicked out and eventually one of the females died due to over breeding, He got rid of the male to my knowledge and the other female has continued to breed with husky, shepherd, malamute mixes to create his own breed. The people that started the Aatu use to be apart of the TDR but didn't like that a sarloose wolfdog was added to the breed under the table (this is out in the open) and they decided to split...( maybe more but this was before my time in the breed) The Tamaskan Dog is overseen by the TDR which is made up of people from our clubs and breeders from several countries. They also keep all health records and where all registered tams are around the world.

I am wondering what genetic defects you are talking about? Monorchidism shows in the breed, as well as carriers of Degenerative Myelopathy... but dogs are now tested and can be guaranteed they will not suffer... This will eventually be bred out. Four cases of epilepsy have showed up in the breed and it can be traced back to several dogs generations back. Precautions are made to prevent more dogs from suffering but there is no test to know what dogs carry epilepsy.

Rahne

Re: Stumped

Post by Rahne » Tue May 29, 2012 9:33 pm

feeneyjj wrote: But, leaving aside the question whether wolves or wolf-dogs have contributed to the Tamaskan in the relatively recent past, one thing appears to be clear: all the breeders have been in receipt of breed dogs that have one or more genetic defects -- and have used them, knowingly or not, in their programs. No one seems able to offer compelling evidence that the offspring being offered for sale have been rigorously tested and found free of these defects.

Question: where to go from here?
All breeds, no all dogs, can have genetic defects. A lot of those can not be tested for so you cannot guarantee 'defect' free offspring.. TDR breeders will test for hips but a parent with good hips can still produce offspring with bad hips. Degenerative Myelopathy is tested for which is a DNA test and because of the way it inherits you can guarantee pups that will not suffer from that disease. Some breeders will also check the eyes of the parents, but like with the hips that doesn't guarantee that offspring will all have good eyes. Then there are also diseases like epilepsy that you cannot test for and it can be carried along for generations before it suddenly shows up.

I suggest you look for a breeder that is open and honest about the health in their dogs. One that will SHOW you the copies of health results (hips, DM and everything else they have tested for) and will tell you health 'risks' (Monorchism, Epilepsy) in their current/planned breedings.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Nino » Tue May 29, 2012 10:05 pm

AZDehlin wrote: I am wondering what genetic defects you are talking about? Monorchidism shows in the breed, as well as carriers of Degenerative Myelopathy... but dogs are now tested and can be guaranteed they will not suffer... This will eventually be bred out. Four cases of epilepsy have showed up in the breed and it can be traced back to several dogs generations back. Precautions are made to prevent more dogs from suffering but there is no test to know what dogs carry epilepsy.
Just to bend this in neon so no-one misunderstand
Degenerative Myelopathy -DM- (found in: Bernese Mountain Dog, Boxer, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, German Shepherd Dog, Kerry Blue Terrier, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Standard Poodle):can be tested for and there have been made rules that make sure that no offspring will suffer from this condition (carriers can still be produced, since it would mean death to the breed if we took out all carriers - so at least one free parent of a litter has to be free)
Canine Hip Dysplasia -CHD- (found in a LOT of breeds): there is no DNA test for this, but every breeding dog have to be tested with a result of BVA 18 or under (FCI A and B, OFA Excellent and Good - if I remember correctly), you can never be 100% sure there will be no dysplasia in a puppy but if the parents, grandparents etc. have good results then the likelihood that the pup will get CHD is minimized. The earliest a pup can be checked for CHD is at 4 months with the PennHip method - which is still very new and most people do not use it
Epilepsy (found in: Beagles, Dachshunds, Keeshonden German Shepherd Dogs, Belgian Tervurens, Cocker Spaniels, Collies, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, Irish Setters, Poodles, Miniature Schnauzers, St. Bernards, Siberian Huskies, and Wire Fox Terriers and even Mixed breeds): how Epilepsy is carried we do not know and we cannot test, BUT there have only been a handful of known cases, and every smart breeder will be very careful when breeding lines that possibly could have a carrier so hopefully no more will show up.

Besides these I don't really think there is anything that is known to be a problem, there is some dogs with a bit of (food) allergies but that does not seem to be something that is big through the breed.
Most important is that you get copies of the official health papers BEFORE you get your puppy (even before you put down your deposit) to be sure that your breeder will indeed give this to you.. and that the dogs have been tested!
>> Nino <<
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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Tue May 29, 2012 10:11 pm

Thank you, Wolfsbane/Rahne.

I have to admit I am put off by the stonewalling of those who were long ago asked to provide just those documents you mention as well as to publish the full history of their bloodlines. Their failure to respond in full with the requested information and the excuses offered do not stand up to ordinary, everyday inspection.

(I realize that no one can guarantee a defect-free animal -- but, since the dog is the animal most beset with genetic flaws, one wants to play the percentages, just as you imply.)

For me and my plans, this is all a shame.

I wish you good luck with your own breeding plans.

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Re: Stumped

Post by arianwenarie » Tue May 29, 2012 10:11 pm

Nino wrote:Canine Hip Dysplasia -CHD- (found in a LOT of breeds): there is no DNA test for this, but every breeding dog have to be tested with a result of BVA 18 or under (FCI A and B, OFA Excellent and Good - if I remember correctly), you can never be 100% sure there will be no dysplasia in a puppy but if the parents, grandparents etc. have good results then the likelihood that the pup will get CHD is minimized. The earliest a pup can be checked for CHD is at 4 months with the PennHip method - which is still very new and most people do not use it
If I am not mistaken, then I believe as of June 2011, only BVA scores will be accepted by the TDR....? That is, unless the dog was tested prior to that date.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Nino » Tue May 29, 2012 10:15 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Nino wrote:Canine Hip Dysplasia -CHD- (found in a LOT of breeds): there is no DNA test for this, but every breeding dog have to be tested with a result of BVA 18 or under (FCI A and B, OFA Excellent and Good - if I remember correctly), you can never be 100% sure there will be no dysplasia in a puppy but if the parents, grandparents etc. have good results then the likelihood that the pup will get CHD is minimized. The earliest a pup can be checked for CHD is at 4 months with the PennHip method - which is still very new and most people do not use it
If I am not mistaken, then I believe as of June 2011, only BVA scores will be accepted by the TDR....? That is, unless the dog was tested prior to that date.
Could be misunderstood what I meant I see..
I was just writing the other ones for people to be able to compare - it took me a LONG time to get used to anything else than FCI scoring ;)
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Re: Stumped

Post by Tiantai » Tue May 29, 2012 10:31 pm

Welcome aboard from Toronto, Ontario. You've come to the right place to learn more about the breed. There are already lots of threads here that have answers to all your questions.
You can also get more infos from John who is the president of the National Tamaskan Club of America at:

http://www.tarheeltamaskan.com/contactus.htm

He's the one representing the breed in the US and can help you with any further questions that you may have regarding the breed and how to care for one depending on where you live or plan to live. You can also PM him here in the forum, he his known by the user name Tarheel based on the kennel affix. Of course, there are MANY others you can ask here like Nino and Rahne have above. I found this forum to be the best place to learn and I certainly learnt a lot here.

While I don't want to go too deep into this situation in this topic, I understand that you're having difficulties deciding who to believe at the moment given a lot of people new to the breed get confused about what some have referred to as "bickering" between the TDR and different breeders such as RPK and the Aatu breeders but I suggest you read some of the topics on the Scams and Warning section and let you form your own opinion. I, too, was once confused back when I was still new to the Tamaskan world but I can guaranteed that once you've read the entire long Tamaskan Wolfdog topic in that section, you will understand why a lot of the people here, myself included, as well as some people off the forum highly dislike like Rightpuppy Kennel. To be honest, I actually do get along with a few of the Aatu supporters here but as for RPK, I have nothing but anger and disgust towards him! Anyways, I will leave it at that ;)
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Re: Stumped

Post by Nino » Tue May 29, 2012 10:45 pm

(just for the record, I have no beef with any Aatu owner or breeder and RPK dog owner (that didn't know better) - as long as they take care of their dog(s) and love them as family :) )
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Re: Stumped

Post by Tiantai » Tue May 29, 2012 11:37 pm

Nino wrote:(just for the record, I have no beef with any Aatu owner or breeder and RPK dog owner (that didn't know better) - as long as they take care of their dog(s) and love them as family :) )
I agree with you. It's just RPK himself whom I have a beef on, the owners are innocent.
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Re: Stumped

Post by Tarheel » Tue May 29, 2012 11:58 pm

FeeneyJJ,
Welcome to the forum.
There is a ton of information and one would take weeks to read and digest it all.
To clear up you post, There are not 3 groups of Tamaskan Dog Breeders, there is the Original Tamaskan Dog Breed, and then there are two groups that splintered off of the Tamaskan Dog Breed. First, the Tamaskan Dog was formed by and registered through the Tamaskan Dog Register (TDR) 10 years ago.

Second, came along Right Puppy Kennel in Salisbury North Carolina, who saw a market to mass produce Tamaskans, and after Kevin Settineri of Right Puppy Kennel (RPK) would not abide by the breeding rules and standards of the TDR and therefore was not allowed to register his animals with the TDR. Being that RPK was not conducting health testing, breeding females too young, and mating them in back to back breedings, no respectable registered breeder would sell him any Tamaskan Dogs. He later brought in other Wolf Hybrids and wolf look-a-like dogs to widen his breeding pool. He changed his dog breed name to Tamaskan Wolfdog and then later to American Tamaskan.
Lastly, there is the Aatu Tamaskan. A small group of Tamaskan Dog owners did not like the direction of the TDR and broke away from the TDR and formed their own group of breeders, It has been told that they are introducing outcrosses to increase their gene pool, but I have not been following them that closely to determine their recent goals and what they are introducing into what they are now calling the Aatu Tamaskan.
The best thing you can do is contact individual breeders and ask what dogs they are intending on breeding and to ask questions about their medical history and the tests that have been competled.
John Bannow
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Re: Stumped

Post by Tatzel » Wed May 30, 2012 12:54 am

I really need to ask this; how come that they can just name their breeds 'Tamaskan'-something if it's not the original breed anymore? I don't really know a thing about the breeding buisness, but in the art department you may own trademarks on names/logos/etc - can anyone just legally make a dog breed and name them Tamaskan, or is this actually breaking any rules?

I just don't really get why these people, if they don't want to be part of the original/official Tamaskan breeding program anymore, just don't make up their own names for their splintered off breed. (Seriously, making up a decent sounding name is not that hard!)
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Re: Stumped

Post by arianwenarie » Wed May 30, 2012 1:57 am

Tatzel wrote:I really need to ask this; how come that they can just name their breeds 'Tamaskan'-something if it's not the original breed anymore? I don't really know a thing about the breeding buisness, but in the art department you may own trademarks on names/logos/etc - can anyone just legally make a dog breed and name them Tamaskan, or is this actually breaking any rules?

I just don't really get why these people, if they don't want to be part of the original/official Tamaskan breeding program anymore, just don't make up their own names for their splintered off breed. (Seriously, making up a decent sounding name is not that hard!)
I believe (<-- note that word right there as this being unconfirmed), RPK is using the term Tamaskan to help sell his dogs... after all, Tamaskans are a rare breed. If he can pass off a dog that looks LIKE a husky/malmute-ish with the word Tamaskan tacked onto it, then he can make a bigger profit than if he were to advertise them as, say, 'husky/malamute mix puppies'. ;)

As for Aatu, I believe (<-- again, note that word right there as this being unconfirmed), they are using the term Tamaskan to honor the breed origins. Or rather to acknowledge the origins of their foundation stock: Tamaskan Dogs.

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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Wed May 30, 2012 3:07 am

Dank u wel to Rahne/Wolfsbane for the pm (and I'm ashamed to confess I could not figure out how to reply in pm mode).

And thank you, everyone, for taking the time to welcome me and to try to address, more or less, the issues I raised.

I have read a good deal of this forum, but I must admit that I find a real reluctance, on the part of the powers that be, to confront head-on the questions that many have asked. It would seem that only by doing that -- providing detailed, verifiable answers -- do we pass from the realm of mere assertion to that of persuasive evidence.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Tiantai » Wed May 30, 2012 3:27 am

feeneyjj wrote: I have read a good deal of this forum, but I must admit that I find a real reluctance, on the part of the powers that be, to confront head-on the questions that many have asked. It would seem that only by doing that -- providing detailed, verifiable answers -- do we pass from the realm of mere assertion to that of persuasive evidence.
Fear not, you're not alone on that. A lot of people have also felt puzzled by all this and I, too, was nervous about posting in subjects of high-emotions in the past. John above is right though, there is no 3 Tamaskan registrars, RPK is an independent puppy miller while the TBA people left the TDR ages ago. Some of the breeders who were affiliated with the TBA also later on left to become independent breeders of their own such as Takari and like I said, while I don't have a beef on all of the former TDR and TBA breeders and actually friends with a few, there are those that I don't get along with at all like Takari (for making up that No-Wolf Fable in an attempt to slander my friends who are the reputable breeders).
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Re: Stumped

Post by nivenj » Wed May 30, 2012 5:14 am

feeneyjj wrote:Dank u wel to Rahne/Wolfsbane for the pm (and I'm ashamed to confess I could not figure out how to reply in pm mode).

And thank you, everyone, for taking the time to welcome me and to try to address, more or less, the issues I raised.

I have read a good deal of this forum, but I must admit that I find a real reluctance, on the part of the powers that be, to confront head-on the questions that many have asked. It would seem that only by doing that -- providing detailed, verifiable answers -- do we pass from the realm of mere assertion to that of persuasive evidence.
Welcome.

This topic was discussed at length in a recent thread. It is our belief and hope, that this has prompted some action within the TDR to address these concerns and provide the detailed, verifiable answers you seek. Although, with no official statement to that effect, it is just that at present (hope and belief).
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Re: Stumped

Post by Dozer » Wed May 30, 2012 8:43 am

arianwenarie wrote:
Tatzel wrote:I really need to ask this; how come that they can just name their breeds 'Tamaskan'-something if it's not the original breed anymore? I don't really know a thing about the breeding buisness, but in the art department you may own trademarks on names/logos/etc - can anyone just legally make a dog breed and name them Tamaskan, or is this actually breaking any rules?

I just don't really get why these people, if they don't want to be part of the original/official Tamaskan breeding program anymore, just don't make up their own names for their splintered off breed. (Seriously, making up a decent sounding name is not that hard!)
I believe (<-- note that word right there as this being unconfirmed), RPK is using the term Tamaskan to help sell his dogs... after all, Tamaskans are a rare breed. If he can pass off a dog that looks LIKE a husky/malmute-ish with the word Tamaskan tacked onto it, then he can make a bigger profit than if he were to advertise them as, say, 'husky/malamute mix puppies'. ;)

As for Aatu, I believe (<-- again, note that word right there as this being unconfirmed), they are using the term Tamaskan to honor the breed origins. Or rather to acknowledge the origins of their foundation stock: Tamaskan Dogs.
From what my breeder told me yes the Aatu's use it in honering the breed origins because most foundation dogs of them are tamaskan dogs. But in general they them self just say Aatu because they do not want to drive on the name

Rahne

Re: Stumped

Post by Rahne » Wed May 30, 2012 10:54 am

feeneyjj wrote:Thank you, Wolfsbane/Rahne.

I have to admit I am put off by the stonewalling of those who were long ago asked to provide just those documents you mention as well as to publish the full history of their bloodlines. Their failure to respond in full with the requested information and the excuses offered do not stand up to ordinary, everyday inspection.

(I realize that no one can guarantee a defect-free animal -- but, since the dog is the animal most beset with genetic flaws, one wants to play the percentages, just as you imply.)

For me and my plans, this is all a shame.

I wish you good luck with your own breeding plans.
I understand. I hope you do not feel discouraged on the breed for this reason, because there are a few great breeders that will do the best they can to breed healthy and sound temperament Tamaskan and have no problems providing documents and info on their bloodlines to the 'potential' future pup owners.

Thank you :)
feeneyjj wrote:Dank u wel to Rahne/Wolfsbane for the pm (and I'm ashamed to confess I could not figure out how to reply in pm mode).
I did not pm you, must have been someone else. If you want to reply to a pm, there's a 'post reply' button on the lower right when you have opened the pm. ;)

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Re: Stumped

Post by JulieSmith » Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am

Hi my suggestion is to try and meet some Tamaskans, photos and descriptions are good but nothing helps more than meeting a breed you are interested in. I think there is the US show coming up soon and that would be the best place as there should be quite a few owners and breeders there for you to talk to. If you can not make the show then there are usually people on this forum who would be happy to meet up and discuss their dogs :D If you meet some you will know if the dogs are worth your time to research further.

There is a lot of rumours around the breed at the moment, hopefully that will be sorted soon before it starts to put people off this lovely breed. I don't know a lot about Atuu breeders so can not comment on them the only 'breeder' to keep away from is RPK as that is a puppy mill. If you want unbiased stories about RPK, owners of his dogs have a Facebook page that only owners can join to share their experiences, I am sure someone with access to a computer will post a link soon for you.

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Re: Stumped

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 30, 2012 3:31 pm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/283757565012948/

Link Julie mentioned :D

If you pm different people on there they can give you their thoughts and feelings through experience with RPK's dogs...

again, i can't comment on the Aatu as i'm not familiar with them...

But there are some really good, truthful breeders willing to disclose health information and linage to the pup and parents to the best of their ability...
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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Wed May 30, 2012 4:45 pm

Rahne is right. Someone else pm'd me. My mistake.

But again, thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

Fortunately, I have time before I make a decision, and I can continue to read this forum and do other research about reliable breeders. Like many here, I hope that the breeders come forward soon with the requested information. That would go a long way toward settling my own concerns.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Tarheel » Wed May 30, 2012 6:05 pm

FeeneyJJ,
I am a Registered Breeder here in the USA. I must have missed your questions with regard to requested information. Feel free to PM me, or list your specific questions and I will do my best to answer them.
John Bannow
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Re: Stumped

Post by Eventide » Thu May 31, 2012 9:39 pm

I also noticed that you are in the Washington, DC area. My husband is retired and I still work 5 days a week (2 days from home), and hoping to retire in another year or two. I live in Frederick, MD and just recently adopted my first Tam. He is almost 5 months old and the sweetest, most laid-back puppy I've ever seen and I've had so many people tell me the same. I was very fortunate to have a friend who had adopted her first Tam a year ago and was able to help me.

My breeder, Hawthorne Tamaskan, will not be breeding again until next year, but I had all the information for this breeding that you are questioning. In other words, I know what they know and I couldn't be happier with my boy, Max. As I continue to read everything I can get my hands on, IMHO, I believe this is the norm-not the exception, for all the TDR breeders.

I would love for you to meet him if it would help with your decision-making.
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Re: Stumped

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:47 am

I am happy to provide information to you regarding our dogs, too. If I missed an email I do apologize. It is unfortunate that I have to have a full time job that takes me away from my dogs :D I also have a family and we all know how busy life can get sometimes.

I think most of us also work a day job--and breeding Tamaskan Dogs is a part time job we do for the love of it.

Welcome to the forum!
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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:46 pm

Thank you, Dottie and Hawthorne. It is good to know that there is a satisfied Tamaskan owner not too far away and a breeder within driving distance. The positive things Dottie has to say are most encouraging, though I admit my further online research after my first postings was driving me back in the direction of a Siberian Husky (or two, or a border collie in addition to a husky). At some point, I hope to get in contact with Hawthorne. I'm also glad to hear anything more Dottie has to say about Max as time goes by.

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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:07 pm

After an almost two-month interruption, I came back here several days ago to see what's happening.

Again, my sincere thanks for the generosity of those who weighed in on this thread, which I just re-read.

I have also read with great interest the "wolf content" thread. I guess I was not surprised that certain individuals, who had given such suspicioulsly evasive answers for so long, have absconded with their tails between their legs. It was pretty transparent, even to a first-time visitor to this forum, that they were trying to hide something and mislead.

I will be interested in seeing the results of any further genetic testing that owners and breeders may wish to post.

It would be great if, at some point, one of the experienced Tamaskan enthusiasts on this forum could undertake to try to sum up, in light of what has become public about the foundation animals and of what the genetic testing of some dogs has shown, where we are with regard to wolf content and the various bloodlines. Maybe a new thread like the one Sylvaen nobly started on "wolf content": in other words, a follow-up to that thread, taking the information there and whatever else has become known in the last couple of months and putting that all together to draw some even tentative conclusions. One of the goals would be to give outsiders like me an idea whether we are heading, at least in the case of some of the bloodlines, toward a situation where it could honestly said that these Tamaskans are not/no longer wolfdogs in any meaningful sense.

The other big favor I'd like to ask is for discussion, from owners' experiences, of Tamaskan behavior. It's easy to see how deeply many of you love your animals, but there have been a few hints, here and there of behavioral problems -- that might or might not have something to do with wolf ancestry. Now, I know there are many owners of outright wolves who mangage positive relationships with their animals, but no one denies that living with a wolf is a challenge not everyone can meet.

Even more than their beauty (as seen in photos), what attracted me to the possibility of a Tamaskan was the notion that, compared to a Siberian Husky, the Tamaskan is less ferociously independent and could be let off the leash in the Virginia countryside (or our own part thereof) and be called back fom a romp. But I really don't know if this is true or even if this is the experience of most Tamaskan owners. Can they be let fun free -- in appropriate circumstances -- and be expected to return home? Can they be left off the leash on the porch, or will they take off and never be seen again?

If and when I get the time, I would like to take up the kind offers to meet a Tamaskan owner and a breeder in the greater Washington, DC area. Until then, I -- and I'd bet others -- would greatly appreciate commentary from as many owners as possible on their experiences, including any health or behavioral problems, training suggestions, etc.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:37 pm

There is a thread on recall training here: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3077
I personally have not tried to train my dogs to be off leash while in town (Harrisburg, PA), but rather to be off leash while on hikes in the woods. I think people have varying degrees of success with off leash training. Our Freyja is very great off leash. I'm sure you know this takes a lot of training but it is very rewarding to watch them run at top speed across a field or through the woods. I love photographing them while we're on hikes.

As far as summing up the wolf content testing, I'll hunt around to see if there's a thread started, and if not I'll start one and edit and post the link.

(edit:) I couldn't find a thread which summarized the UC Davis Test results, so I started a new thread here: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3453
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: Stumped

Post by feeneyjj » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:29 am

Thank you, Hawthorne, for starting that thread. As time passes and more information accumulates, those with the necessary expertise and experience could begin to float their analyses and offer their conclusions for comment and discussion by their peers. I think that would be of significant help to those, like me, who have come here to see if a Tamaskan makes sense for them.

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Re: Stumped

Post by Gabriele58 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:32 pm

You wanted to know what some owners have experienced in terms of behaviour with their Tamaskans, so I thought I would share a bit of our journey with Loki (until now).

He was extremely timid when we first got him and it took well over a month to trust us enough to let us pet him. We know now that he wasn't properly socialized at all. He is still a bit afraid of tall men, but is never aggressive towards any person. He is very affectionate now and gives us a proper lecture when we dare to leave him alone for a bit. He's great with kids and our small dog, although I worry that he is too rough with our cats sometimes, but I'm working on that one.

He is very quick to learn simple commands and will do just about anything for a treat. As with many Tams, he's very food oriented. He's slowly starting to be eager to please for the most part, but he does have a stubborn streak.

We don't let him out to run loose when we're not around, but whenever we go down to the lake or on a trail he's always off-leash. He will stop in mid-run to come back if my husband uses the whistle.

Our only issue with him now is with other dogs. He tends to bark and get in their faces, so people rarely let their dogs stay around him. When someone does let the two dogs greet each other, he's fine and he immediately goes into the "I want to play" mode. After some initial fear at the Tam show, he made a few "friends" that he was very happy to greet and play with. Surprisingly he seems to get along better with other males. I think we are dealing with a combination of fear and maybe some aggression when it comes to other dogs, but as I said, if he's allowed to greet the dog, preferably off leash, he's fine.

We have been very dedicated to our boy and take as much advice and information in as we can. I work with him daily to try to make it less stressful for him to meet other dogs. I find what works the best is just to keep walking and not focus so much on trying to have him greet dogs in a nice way.

Although Loki has been quite a challenge at times, we couldn't love him any more if we tried and he is an intricate part of our family now.

If you're able to make it to the Tam show next year, it's a great opportunity to meet some of the U.S. breeders, as well as other Tam owners. Everyone was extremely hospitable to us and helpful in answering questions.

I hope that you decide to give a Tamaskan a home someday. They may not all be the easiest dogs to raise, but they sure are worth it!
~Gabriele~

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Re: Stumped

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:55 pm

I would like to say that I hope that Gabriele's experience is the exception and not the norm.

From day one when we brought Freyja home (over 3 years ago now) she has been outgoing and friendly with strangers. I unknowingly caused problems with other dogs while she was on leash (being too nervous as we had been attacked a couple of times) but she's doing much better with walking by other dogs who are outside while on our walks--or should I say I'm doing much better now :D We've trained her to be off leash, and when she is she's fine with other dogs.
We have struggled with both Freyja and Darwin on not pulling on the leash. This doesn't come as a surprise to me, however, as they are considered a Northern breed of sled dog type. I've learned that the best way to walk them is one at a time--otherwise they pull like mad when they're together. Both adults are doing great at not pulling. We're down to Darwin wearing a Easy Walk harness, and Freyja just wears a leather collar now! Wow!
Freyja was incredibly easy to potty train. She must be the exception because Darwin took quite a while (8 months) to potty train and Raven (currently at 7 months) still has accidents in other people's houses. (we use a bell on the back door so that they can ring it when they need to go out. We have a fenced in yard. I can't imagine having four dogs and no fence!)
Darwin has some separation anxiety issues that we've been working through since we rescued him at the age of 5 months. On occasion he will destroy something in the house: shred a book or chew up a video game. However, the key to this not happening is very clear to us: they must receive a walk if we intend to go anywhere that day and leave them alone, and we must not leave in a big hurry and should not make a fuss when we're leaving. We also leave plenty for the dogs to "do" while we're gone: kong toys stuffed with peanut butter, premiere toys with the rawhide discs on them (what a godsend! but expensive), frozen ropes for anyone who is teething, radio or tv on, etc.
All three Tams are smart and like to learn. They've all been to doggie school and excel in class. Darwin has learned to pull me on a scooter rig, and Freyja will pull me in a canicrcoss setup. I hope to graduate to skis someday--I'm great at skiing but we've recently moved further south where there isn't much snow, sadly.
Anyhow, Raven is our youngest at 7 months old. We socialized the heck out of those pups--they were born in a spare bedroom then at 3 weeks old we moved all nine pups into our kitchen. We had lots of folks over to visit. Raven has since been exposed to many dogs and people, and been through puppy kindergarden and manners class. She is also a little timid around new things / people / situations but this is normal for puppies. They all go through "fear periods" where they are overly cautious. The important thing with this breed is to expose them to as many positive experiences / people / dogs as possible in the first year of life. We feel like we've done a pretty good job with our dogs and they are wonderful company. We do feed them a grain free diet as grains seem to upset their tummies. Motion sickness is common in the first year of life but they seem to grow out of it. All of them do better in the car if we have a second, third, or fourth dog in the car with them. They love to be in the same room as us, or sit next to us on the couch. Darwin and Freyja aren't much for snuggling as I think they just get too hot. Raven, on the other hand, will often put her head in our lap. All dogs potty on command. Tam body language is amazing to watch: the face licking and bowing and paws on backs, etc really reminds me of wild dogs. Play is very rough, but normal. We have no resource guarding in our house. Three of the four dogs are crate trained. Darwin is the exception to that. He hates crates and I can't blame him: he formerly spent 10 hour days in his crate when he was with his previous owner. We tried our best to warm him up to the crate, but like his infrequent bouts with destruction, he tried to break out of his crate on occasion. The last time he actually broke the welds on the front of the crate exposing wire that he could have impaled himself with. No more crate! The three adults now have the downstairs to themselves, and only Raven is crated when we're not home.
They seldom bark but do if someone knocks on the front door. Because we are right in town, firetrucks and sirens are a frequent sound. Our dogs almost always howl as a result.
I love our Tams and could keep rambling...
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: Stumped

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:48 pm

I am not sure if it could be called ignorance, but whatever you call my inexperience with Tams, I dare say that the bloodline you choose may also be a factor in your experience - in addition to each individual person's lifestyle, experience, resources, etc.

Forgive me if I've offended anyone... And now, I shall slink away to lurk the forum again. lol. :P

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Re: Stumped

Post by Eventide » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:01 am

fenneyjj, I am a new owneer of a Tamaskan and live in Frederick, Maryland. I have recently posted on two topics that may give you some incite into todays breeders of the Tamskan dog, as my Max is only 7 months old. The topics are DM Testing, and Recall Training. Anytime you would be interested in meeting a Tamaskan, let me know. Max and I would love to show you how truly peaceful and loving these dogs are.
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