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FRAUD & DECEPTION by Blustag/Blufawn

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:46 pm
by Sylvaen
In May 2010, Allison Laing (Sugalba) had a litter of 8 puppies.
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=222
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1558

Sugalba Hog Heaven (Blaez) - male
Sugalba Piggy in the Middle (Freke) - male
Sugalba Pig Latin (Silas) - male
Sugalba Pigs Might Fly (Dylan) - male
Sugalba Piggin' Out (Yuma) - female
Sugalba Savin' Your Bacon (Yiska) - female
Sugalba Ham it Up (Cassidy) - female
Sugalba Goin' the Whole Hog (Lilli) - female

Date of Birth: 24/05/2010

The listed parents were:
DAM: Blustag Fire Fox at Sugalba (Foxy)
SIRE: Blustag Little Bear (Skye)

Scidera (formerly MMI Genomics) recently confirmed, through DNA parentage analysis, that NEVADA (Blustag Bindaree) owned by Lynn Hardey, is the actual dam of this litter.

Foxy (Blustag Fire Fox) is out of Tumanra x Dingo - though there are no records proving that this dog even exists.
Nevada (Blustag Bindaree) is out of Tumanra x Banjo.

Clearly there are some strong implications as this means that Nevada had 2 litters 7 months apart (October 2009 and May 2010) without the knowledge or prior approval of the TDR Committee as a whole. Indeed, until recently most of the TDR Committee was unaware that Nevada is the dam of the Sugalba litter so it came as a big shock when we found out via Scidera (formerly MMI Genomics). To date, there is no evidence (health test records, etc) to show that Foxy even exists at all. It has been suggested that the DNA company (Scidera) made a mistake with the records but in light of scientific evidence (and with consideration to the lack of evidence for Foxy's existence) it is prudent to assume that the DNA parentage analysis is correct and that "Foxy" was fabricated as a fake dam to cover-up this litter out of Nevada.

October 25, 2009 - The 'X-Men' litter.
Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) x Dingo at Blustag (Dingo)

* Blufawn Beast (Raff) - male
* Blufawn Gambit (Zuuk) - male
* Blufawn Jubilee (?) - female
* Blufawn Rogue (Leilah) - female
* Blufawn Storm (Storm) - female
* Blufawn Wolverine (?) - male

May 24, 2010 - The 'Pig' litter
Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) / Blustag Firefox (Fox) x Blustag Little Bear (Skye)

* Sugalba Goin' the Whole Hog (Lilli) - female
* Sugalba Ham It Up (Cassidy) - female
* Sugalba Hog Heaven (Blaze) - male
* Sugalba Pig Latin (Silas) - male
* Sugalba Piggin' Out (Yuma) - female
* Sugalba Piggy in the Middle (Freke) - male
* Sugalba Pigs Might Fly at Moondance (Dylan) - male
* Sugalba Savin' Your Bacon (Yiska) - female

May 24, 2011 - The 'American States' litter
Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) x Blustag Little Bear (Skye)

* Blustag Alabama (Tala) - female
* Blustag Alaska (Ylvi) - female
* Blustag Colorado (Mona Lisa) - female
* Blustag Idaho (Frida) - female
* Blustag Indiana (Matsi) - female
* Blustag Kentucky (Logan) - male
* Blustag Montana (Wyona) - female
* Blustag Nebraska (Lexi) - female

It is also worth noting that at least one offspring of the Sugalba 'Pig' Litter tested positive for wolf content, which implies that other Nevada X Skye offspring will also test positive for wolf genetic markers. However, it is also worth remembering that one offspring of the Sugalba 'Pig' Litter is also an officially certified Search & Rescue dog! As far as I know, all the owners of Sugalba 'Pig' Litter dogs have already been informed that Nevada is the actual mother of their dog(s).

Re: Sugalba Litter

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:47 pm
by Katlin
Interesting post, thanks debby. Is Nevada now retired?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:50 pm
by Sylvaen
I believe that Nevada is due to give birth this month, if she has not already.

Posted May 17, 2012:
Blustag wrote:Pregnancy confirmed today. Nevada to Bodie :D Puppies due June ready to go August ...approx.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:51 pm
by Katlin
Sylvaen wrote:I believe that Nevada is due to give birth this month, if she has not already.

Posted May 17, 2012:
Blustag wrote:Pregnancy confirmed today. Nevada to Bodie :D Puppies due June ready to go August ...approx.
Ok, thanks.

Re: Sugalba Litter

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:54 pm
by AZDehlin
SHOCK....So what actions have been made for falsifying a dog even existed? Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel ( Frejya)

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:54 pm
by Gaby
Very, very dissapointing... :( Owners could be breeding with the wrong lines with a risk of inbreeding etc. because they thought that "Foxy" was from another litter than their actual mother. I can't get my head around this and why it happened and why people wanted to cover up this. It could very well harm the breed as a whole. Not to mention Nevada herself.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:56 pm
by Gaby
Sylvaen wrote:I believe that Nevada is due to give birth this month, if she has not already.

Posted May 17, 2012:
Blustag wrote:Pregnancy confirmed today. Nevada to Bodie :D Puppies due June ready to go August ...approx.
:roll: And I do not understand why Bodie is being used after the things happened with the Golden Litter, but that is a whole different discussion.

Re: Sugalba Litter

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:01 pm
by Gaby
AZDehlin wrote:SHOCK....So what actions have been made for falsifying a dog even existed? Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel ( Frejya)
Yes, I am also curious what actions have been taken. I believe that Lynn is still in charge of the pedigrees and health test results without having to verify that with somebody else. Or am I wrong?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:12 pm
by arianwenarie
So does this mean that the "Fire" litter in 2007 does not exist? Before the "Forum Friendliness" thread was deleted, I believe I had seen a post made by Jennie regarding the litter information that produce Blustag Fire Fox (Foxy).

Gaby wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:SHOCK....So what actions have been made for falsifying a dog even existed? Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel ( Frejya)
Yes, I am also curious what actions have been taken. I believe that Lynn is still in charge of the pedigrees and health test results without having to verify that with somebody else. Or am I wrong?
If that is the case and pedigrees were falsified for whatever reason, then I would personally be very concerned. Who is to say this will not happen again (for whatever reason)?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:18 pm
by AZDehlin
arianwenarie wrote:
Gaby wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:SHOCK....So what actions have been made for falsifying a dog even existed? Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel ( Frejya)
Yes, I am also curious what actions have been taken. I believe that Lynn is still in charge of the pedigrees and health test results without having to verify that with somebody else. Or am I wrong?
If that is the case and pedigrees were falsified for whatever reason, then I would personally be very concerned. Who is to say this will not happen again (for whatever reason)?
Thats what I have been wondering, to my knowledge haven't breeders been kicked out for lesser things? I question the documents being held by any one person anymore... I think every tdr member should have copies of every registered dog, past or present along with there health records.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:34 pm
by wen
oh man, covering a sire, was yet something, but a dam ? I guess that was the second revelation, what else will we discover ?
I'm also wondering which were the sanctions, as this was fraude

Re: Sugalba Litter

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:39 pm
by Nino
Gaby wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:SHOCK....So what actions have been made for falsifying a dog even existed? Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel ( Frejya)
Yes, I am also curious what actions have been taken. I believe that Lynn is still in charge of the pedigrees and health test results without having to verify that with somebody else. Or am I wrong?
I too wish to know what actions will be taken to this, a case that I personally certainly do not see as a misdemeanor and wish to know what will be done to this.
I see NO reason what so ever that this litter should even have been done, what is the reasoning given for this to the TDR?

I have to say that I wish for another Secretary to be set up asap, and all papers handed over to said, along with copies to at least one other TDR member, for safe keeping.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:44 pm
by Rahne
AZDehlin wrote:Also is the paper work then at least right on the Hawthorne litter who was Sugulba (Dylan) x Tarheel (Frejya).
No this paperwork isn't correct as Dylan is listed as being from Tumanra and Dingo.
arianwenarie wrote:So does this mean that the "Fire" litter in 2007 does not exist? Before the "Forum Friendliness" thread was deleted, I believe I had seen a post made by Jennie regarding the litter information that produce Blustag Fire Fox (Foxy).
The 'Fire' litter does exists. Maybe 'Fire Fox' also exists and her name was misused for this litter OR they made up an extra puppy, as happened with 'Blustag Apache Horse'.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:45 pm
by Dallas
Thanks Debby for posting this and the other threads :)
Beside wanting to know the consequences, like everyone else here, I'd also like to know if anyone else was involved in this?
I'm not asking for names, I'd just like to know if more people knew about this (before Scidera contacted you).

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:48 pm
by Rahne
Dallas wrote:I'd also like to know if anyone else was involved in this? I'm not asking for names, I'd just like to know if more people knew about this (before Scidera contacted you).
I'm not Debby but I can assure you that no one else was aware of this until recently after DNA testing confirmed Nevada as being the dam of this litter.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:52 pm
by Dallas
Ok, thanks
thats good to know :)

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:58 pm
by nivenj
OK, I'm going to ask what is probably a stupid question but I'll ask it publicly in case there are others that are in the same boat as me :-S Also, if any of my assumptions are incorrect please jump in as I am not 100% sure how a lot of this works and just tried to work it out as I learnt more...

So...

A dog that born to a breeder takes the name of that Breeder, so we know that Saxon Midzor was born at Saxon Breeders. If Saxon Midzor had been sold to Debby they he would have been known as Saxon Midzor at Sylvaen in the pedigree.

With that in mind,

Blustag Fire Fox at Sugalba would be a dog that was born at Blustag and then sold to Sugalba for Breeding. A Sire can come from any suitable Breeder and is by agreement or a Breeder can use their own stock. So in this instance one of Blustags Dogs mated with the dog now at Sugalba to produce the Pig Litter (or that was the claim).

What is being proposed here, is that Blustag Firefox at Sugalba did not give birth to the Litter, and it was Blustag Bindaree. As there is not Blustag Bindaree at XXX does this mean that the litter was actually Blustags and nothing to do with Sugalba?, Was this an honest mistake/mating (these things happen) or is it being suggested there was deliberate falsification and collusion between these 2 kennels to enable another litter before its time?

Either way it seems a blinkin mess. How can we know if this is an isolated incidence or if there are other issues of this nature?

EDIT: BTW, Im not looking at this from a blame perspective, whats done is done, I am looking at it from the point of view of getting a bona fide pedigree for our breed.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:16 pm
by Nino
I believe that "Sugalba" was one that worked for (and maybe even living with??) Blustag for some time, this also doing the period of which Foxy was supposed to have given birth to the Pig litter (which instead was Nevada).
I have been told too that Blustag(and/or Blufawn, I don't remember if it was one or both) was the one handling the sales of the puppies by one of the owners.

This is however what I was told, would be nice if this could be confirmed (or the opposite).

Since Nevada being the mother was kept secret until it was figured out by others, I would say to me it seems pretty much like something done on purpose.. had it been a mistake, the TDR should have been contacted right away!

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:29 pm
by Karen
As said in the above reply: there must have been 2 kennels involved with this fraud or am I also mistaking? Sugalba and Blustag?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:29 pm
by Rahne
The litter was indeed from Blustag as Nevada was her dog at the time. Right after the litter with Dingo, Nevada was actually retired by Blufawn (no idea why..) and she was taken from the website. Then she appeared again when Lynn announced she was expecting a litter from Skye, the American States litter. Fox/Nevada gave birth by Lynn and she also handled the sales.

How could this be a mistake? If your dam is giving birth then I'm sure you know who it is? :?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:32 pm
by Rahne
Karen wrote:As said in the above reply: there must have been 2 kennels involved with this fraud or am I also mistaking? Sugalba and Blustag?
Yes of course. Sugalba was living together with Lynn & Jennie at the time, she worked for them. As far as I know she used to own Blustag Little Sunshine (Summer) at one time but she was rehomed. Sugalba was contacted and asked for clarification but she never responded and blocked people on her Facebook account.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:37 pm
by nivenj
Rahne wrote: How could this be a mistake? If your dam is giving birth then I'm sure you know who it is? :?
I meant the mating could have been a mistake, ie Nevada becoming pregnant so soon, not a mistake in the paperwork.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:38 pm
by wen
nivenj wrote:
Rahne wrote: How could this be a mistake? If your dam is giving birth then I'm sure you know who it is? :?
I meant the mating could have been a mistake, ie Nevada becoming pregnant so soon, not a mistake in the paperwork.
ok, it could, but then, why hiding it with such energy ?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:40 pm
by Tarheel
Accidental mating do happen on occasion and sometimes two sires can get a bitch pregnant. But when the Bitch is incorrectly listed, it is hard to make a mistake of which girl produced a litter. The deleimma is that Foxy for all intent purposes cannot be located to do DNA. Getting a DNA test run on Foxy would end all controversey with the pig litter.
I have been told that Sugalba, the owner of Foxy at the time of the Pig litter has now rehomed Foxy. It also appears that the transfer of Registration of Foxy to the new owner did not take place. Sugalba has not been in contact with me after several emails and messeges to determine who owns Foxy now, or where she is. In that sense Foxy has dissapeared with no way of verifying the Pig Litter DNA. We can only go by what the DNA results show.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:52 pm
by nivenj
Tarheel wrote:It also appears that the transfer of Registration of Foxy to the new owner did not take place.
This is not any surprise. Despite hand delivering and paying my transfer of registration over 2 Months ago I've still to get confirmation on the transfer and new registration certificate despite chasing it. I'll wait until were back and stable again then hopefully these sorts of things can be resolved.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:00 pm
by Gaby
Tarheel wrote:Accidental mating do happen on occasion and sometimes two sires can get a bitch pregnant. But when the Bitch is incorrectly listed, it is hard to make a mistake of which girl produced a litter. The deleimma is that Foxy for all intent purposes cannot be located to do DNA. Getting a DNA test run on Foxy would end all controversey with the pig litter.
I have been told that Sugalba, the owner of Foxy at the time of the Pig litter has now rehomed Foxy. It also appears that the transfer of Registration of Foxy to the new owner did not take place. Sugalba has not been in contact with me after several emails and messeges to determine who owns Foxy now, or where she is. In that sense Foxy has dissapeared with no way of verifying the Pig Litter DNA. We can only go by what the DNA results show.
I do not believe that Foxy is the mother of this litter or that she even existed. When we where searching for a Tamaskan puppy, we where very high on the Blustag waiting list. Lynn offered us a puppy from the Pig litter that has been sold to Marc Jiskra eventually. I asked for pictures about Foxy at the forum and by email, but never got any pictures. The only pictures that existed where on the forum but seem to be removed right now? :? It was a picture from the mother with puppies. You could see her body and a piece of her head and she looked a lot like Nevada.
And a question, is the proof that the puppies from the Foxy x Skye litter are full siblings of the Nevada x Skye litter not enough? Do you still need Foxy's DNA?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:05 pm
by Rahne
Gaby wrote:
Tarheel wrote:Accidental mating do happen on occasion and sometimes two sires can get a bitch pregnant. But when the Bitch is incorrectly listed, it is hard to make a mistake of which girl produced a litter. The deleimma is that Foxy for all intent purposes cannot be located to do DNA. Getting a DNA test run on Foxy would end all controversey with the pig litter.
I have been told that Sugalba, the owner of Foxy at the time of the Pig litter has now rehomed Foxy. It also appears that the transfer of Registration of Foxy to the new owner did not take place. Sugalba has not been in contact with me after several emails and messeges to determine who owns Foxy now, or where she is. In that sense Foxy has dissapeared with no way of verifying the Pig Litter DNA. We can only go by what the DNA results show.
I do not believe that Foxy is the mother of this litter or that she even existed. When we where searching for a Tamaskan puppy, we where very high on the Blustag waiting list. Lynn offered us a puppy from the Pig litter that has been sold to Marc Jiskra eventually. I asked for pictures about Foxy at the forum and by email, but never got any pictures. The only pictures that existed where on the forum but seem to be removed right now? :? It was a picture from the mother with puppies. You could see her body and a piece of her head and she looked a lot like Nevada.
And a question, is the proof that the puppies from the Foxy x Skye litter are full siblings of the Nevada x Skye litter not enough? Do you still need Foxy's DNA?
http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=222

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:07 pm
by Jen
Wow...serious stuff. Apalling behaviour from anyone who claims have the best interests of dogs at heart. I am glad Sasha looks like her mother as as we were not allowed to meet Susi when we picked up Sasha from Lynns house, I would start to have my doubts. Just not on at all :( :o :shock:

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:08 pm
by Dallas
Gaby wrote:I do not believe that Foxy is the mother of this litter or that she even existed. When we where searching for a Tamaskan puppy, we where very high on the Blustag waiting list. Lynn offered us a puppy from the Pig litter that has been sold to Marc Jiskra eventually. I asked for pictures about Foxy at the forum and by email, but never got any pictures. The only pictures that existed where on the forum but seem to be removed right now? :? It was a picture from the mother with puppies. You could see her body and a piece of her head and she looked a lot like Nevada.
And a question, is the proof that the puppies from the Foxy x Skye litter are full siblings of the Nevada x Skye litter not enough? Do you still need Foxy's DNA?
do you mean this picture?

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=222

and yes I agree with you, it sounds more like it that Foxy never really existed. Could be wrong though, so I guess we'll have to wait till Lynn gets back on.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:10 pm
by skyedream
So the bitch in those photos is Nevada?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:11 pm
by Dallas
lol guess Rahne was faster than me with the pic
feel free to delete my post

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:12 pm
by Rahne
skyedream wrote:So the bitch in those photos is Nevada?
Yes I believe so. Here are some pics from Nevada with her litter with Skye in 2011 (American States litter):
http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1666

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:15 pm
by skyedream
I was going to say it's amazing that no one noticed at the time but if the dogs were reported to be half-sisters I guess everyone just thought it was family resemblance.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:15 pm
by Gaby
Rahne wrote:
skyedream wrote:So the bitch in those photos is Nevada?
Yes I believe so. Here are some pics from Nevada with her litter with Skye in 2011 (American States litter):
http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1666
Thank you for the links to that topic, I believe so too, they look very much alike.
Jen wrote:Wow...serious stuff. Apalling behaviour from anyone who claims have the best interests of dogs at heart. I am glad Sasha looks like her mother as as we were not allowed to meet Susi when we picked up Sasha from Lynns house, I would start to have my doubts. Just not on at all :( :o :shock:
Why couldn't you meet Susi when you picked up Sasha?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:16 pm
by Karen
Rahne wrote:
Karen wrote:As said in the above reply: there must have been 2 kennels involved with this fraud or am I also mistaking? Sugalba and Blustag?
Yes of course. Sugalba was living together with Lynn & Jennie at the time, she worked for them. As far as I know she used to own Blustag Little Sunshine (Summer) at one time but she was rehomed. Sugalba was contacted and asked for clarification but she never responded and blocked people on her Facebook account.
Ah! So Sugalba was the woman that we met when we picked up Maguyuk in 2008. Remember her.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:20 pm
by Rahne
skyedream wrote:I was going to say it's amazing that no one noticed at the time but if the dogs were reported to be half-sisters I guess everyone just thought it was family resemblance.
Well honestly I personally always had a 'fishy' feeling about the litter, just couldn't figure out what was going on. The fact that when the litter was announced no one had ever heard of this bitch, certain questions were ignored and no photo's were posted made me suspicious. Then after this litter she totally disappeared out of the picture and Lynn/Jennie kept making 'mistakes' about her pedigree on the forum...

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:38 pm
by Finn1
Sorry but this all sounds a bit to familiar for me. We bought Blufawn Jim Reeves who was apparantly really Blufawn Kenny Rogers. There are no photos of him on the website but there is a 'Jodie' male that looks very much like him, he does however resemble Ayla and Balto but who knows!!! I have not been comfortable since the beginning (although we love Finn dearly) however it is all beginning to smack of buying a Thoroughbred that is actually part Donkey. Potentially if his pedigree cannot be confirmed then from a trading standards perspective this is very wrong and action could be taken.

By the way Sugalba is nearly an anagram of Blustag it is just missing the T. I am very disappointed and really feel for everyone who has been effected by this.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:39 pm
by Jen
Gaby wrote:
Rahne wrote:
skyedream wrote:So the bitch in those photos is Nevada?
Yes I believe so. Here are some pics from Nevada with her litter with Skye in 2011 (American States litter):
http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1666
Thank you for the links to that topic, I believe so too, they look very much alike.
Jen wrote:Wow...serious stuff. Apalling behaviour from anyone who claims have the best interests of dogs at heart. I am glad Sasha looks like her mother as as we were not allowed to meet Susi when we picked up Sasha from Lynns house, I would start to have my doubts. Just not on at all :( :o :shock:
Why couldn't you meet Susi when you picked up Sasha?
I was never sure....I asked many times to meet Lynns other Tams at her home before we got Sash but she was always busy then when we visited the pups and picked Sasha up Susi was not there and was not bought out to see us although we asked a couple of times. I have never had a puppy before when I have not got to at least meet the mother!! Felt I could not push it though when we were there. :?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:41 pm
by nivenj
There is a lot of information today that needs to be digested and no decisions should be made hastily or without proper regard for consequence. There will undoubtedly be calls for retribution, but we must be ever mindful of what is in the best interests of the Breed. We should not expect immediate results and a plan of action will be drawn up.

This has been simmering for some time and I think with everything out in the open this should be seen as an opportunity to re-lay the foundations to build a stronger community and grow the Breed from strength to strength. Lets give the TDR time to recover, re-evaluate and re-deploy.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:51 pm
by Nino
Jen wrote: I was never sure....I asked many times to meet Lynns other Tams at her home before we got Sash but she was always busy then when we visited the pups and picked Sasha up Susi was not there and was not bought out to see us although we asked a couple of times. I have never had a puppy before when I have not got to at least meet the mother!! Felt I could not push it though when we were there. :?
Knowing what I know today, if this ever happened I would turn around and be on my way..
I am happy that I have learned a lot these past 2 years.. I am only sad about how I have learned it..

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:14 pm
by Jen
Nino wrote:
Jen wrote: I was never sure....I asked many times to meet Lynns other Tams at her home before we got Sash but she was always busy then when we visited the pups and picked Sasha up Susi was not there and was not bought out to see us although we asked a couple of times. I have never had a puppy before when I have not got to at least meet the mother!! Felt I could not push it though when we were there. :?
Knowing what I know today, if this ever happened I would turn around and be on my way..
I am happy that I have learned a lot these past 2 years.. I am only sad about how I have learned it..

Yep....and I should have known better too...but I was soooo excited to have a Tam I excused everything :oops: I am lucky that my girly is such a sweety though even though she is from Skye therefore probably from the lines with the wolf content. This is all so sad as before all the allegations and critisim was " allegedly" made by those who wanted to bring down the breed and were bitter towards blustag but that can hardly be said about those involved now..... it absolutely cannot be laughed off or discredited. Just such a shame :cry:

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:36 pm
by Hawthorne
On our pedigrees for the Yellowstone litter, Dylan's parents are listed as Blustag Little Bear and Blustag Fire Fox at Sugalba.

Several of our pups have gone to breeding homes so I will be asking the advice of others, and specifically the TDR, what we are to do about these 9 pups pedigrees? I think they should be changed.

I could understand an accidental breeding on a female which would result in back to back breeding. I understand that this is not allowed in the UK and perhaps a breeder would be compelled to try and cover this up to save their skin. I understand all of this. But I could not do this myself. In the UK, what would you do if you had an accidental mating that resulted in a back to back breeding? Have the pups and pay a fine, or get the dam to the vet and abort the pups? I don't know the answer to this--just asking hypothetical questions.

As far as consequences I am not familiar with too many other breed clubs. But when I speak to others, pedigree falsification is very serious. This makes me very sad for the breed, but please know that we will deal with this information, move on and be better for it.

I have contacted each of our Yellowstone puppy owners and they have been alerted to this issue. I know I am not guilty but I still feel embarrassed that I supplied these folks with the wrong information.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:57 pm
by WhiteElkStag
Tracy,
I think that the owners should have the proper pedigrees for their dogs. This needs to be something that the entire TDR recognizes, acknowledges and addresses. The only way to prevent future controversy of this sort is to ensure that we all conduct business in an open and transparent way.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:01 pm
by KRHert
I agree, although I'm not a TDR committee member in my opinion I think the pedigrees need to reflect the correct dam/sire.

I don't think you should feel embarrassed, obviously you didn't know anything about this. This is embarrassing for the breed and steps need to be taken to deal with it but you can't know what you don't know (if that makes sense). I'm sure the puppy owner don't blame you at all in this and since they are still too young to breed no breeding mistakes have been make with this litter.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:04 pm
by TerriHolt
I also don't think you have anything to be embarrassed about... you can only provide people with the info you got. youvhad no reason to doubt it till now...

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:07 pm
by arianwenarie
TerriHolt wrote:I also don't think you have anything to be embarrassed about... you can only provide people with the info you got. youvhad no reason to doubt it till now...
I agree.

Tracy, you have taken responsibility as their breeder to inform them of the misinformation given to you - you passed on that information, which is what every good, reputable breeder (I am speaking generalization here) should do. Maybe you don't need to hear this part, but as a potential puppy purchaser, I am very proud of you.

Now, I end the corny, mushy stuff. ;)

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:11 pm
by Rahne
arianwenarie wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:I also don't think you have anything to be embarrassed about... you can only provide people with the info you got. youvhad no reason to doubt it till now...
I agree.

Tracy, you have taken responsibility as their breeder to inform them of the misinformation given to you - you passed on that information, which is what every good, reputable breeder (I am speaking generalization here) should do. Maybe you don't need to hear this part, but as a potential puppy purchaser, I am very proud of you.

Now, I end the corny, mushy stuff. ;)
2nd this! :)

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:32 pm
by MelB
Jen wrote:
Nino wrote:
Jen wrote: I was never sure....I asked many times to meet Lynns other Tams at her home before we got Sash but she was always busy then when we visited the pups and picked Sasha up Susi was not there and was not bought out to see us although we asked a couple of times. I have never had a puppy before when I have not got to at least meet the mother!! Felt I could not push it though when we were there. :?
Knowing what I know today, if this ever happened I would turn around and be on my way..
I am happy that I have learned a lot these past 2 years.. I am only sad about how I have learned it..

Yep....and I should have known better too...but I was soooo excited to have a Tam I excused everything :oops: I am lucky that my girly is such a sweety though even though she is from Skye therefore probably from the lines with the wolf content. This is all so sad as before all the allegations and critisim was " allegedly" made by those who wanted to bring down the breed and were bitter towards blustag but that can hardly be said about those involved now..... it absolutely cannot be laughed off or discredited. Just such a shame :cry:
Hmm.. this sort of rings a bell with me too. Although I got to see Zuul I didn't get to see her with any of the puppies, she was brought out to me. I was given the opportunity to cuddle Blufawn Foxglove who was outside. Jenny then went in and got Cindy for me & I wasn't given the opportunity to see her walk. It wasn't until I got home that I realised she had a funny gait that I hoped she'd grow out of. Our vet neighbour/friend recognised it as potential hip dysplasia the next day. She went lame at 8 months & was diagnosed as having severe bilateral hip dysplasia & arthritis.

There's a lot here to be digested, it's shocking, but if papers have been fraudulently registered with this litter, could other litters be affected? What else is being hidden? I'm sorry but I have lost all trust. I hope that the TDR committee, as a devoted team, can help restore that trust with transparency. I agree with calls that no single person should hold all of the information any more. There is too much opportunity fraud or even for accusations of fraud. If the information is held collectively then it limits accusations in the future.

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:50 pm
by Hawthorne
Let me put this out there: I have a dog breeding mentor who is also involved in a "new" breed. (registered in the UK in 1977) Her advice is that the registry should be in the hands of an unbiased third person. I think this makes sense. What do others think?

Re: SUGALBA LITTER

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:54 pm
by AZDehlin
Hawthorne wrote:Let me put this out there: I have a dog breeding mentor who is also involved in a "new" breed. (registered in the UK in 1977) Her advice is that the registry should be in the hands of an unbiased third person. I think this makes sense. What do others think?
Maybe an unbiased third person/ group, could hold all records and health test stuff... but who if not a breeder, owner, or enthusiast?