FRAUD & DECEPTION by Blustag/Blufawn

Ciaobella · Post by **Ciaobella** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:54 pm

What an absolute MESS. It will take some time for my brain to take this in let alone the TDR and all of the Tam owners & breeders involved. It's crazy what a handful of trusted individuals can do to a breed we care so much about. Although I am not an owner I hope to be one very soon and I have been doing my research and have had suspicions with all three breeders involved but never could I have dreamed up anything like this. I don't even know what to say to this. I just hope it gets straighted out in time.

I do wonder what the fates of Sugalba, Blustag, & Blufawn will be....

KRHert · Post by **KRHert** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:55 pm

Yes this sounds like a good idea. It would have to be someone who knows about dog registry/breeding though I would think. Does this mean someone that doesn't own a Tam or just a non-breeder?

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:00 am

KRHert wrote:Yes this sounds like a good idea. It would have to be someone who knows about dog registry/breeding though I would think. Does this mean someone that doesn't own a Tam or just a non-breeder?

I would say a Tamaskan owner who is also a non-breeder. Upon the time when the registry holder decides to go into breeding, then a new registry holder will need to be selected.

This may be jumping the gun, but I'd possibly be interested in such a venture. lol.

Post by **Katlin** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:02 am

I'd love to do it

I don't have a tam yet and it'll be a couple of years before I breed.

WhiteElkStag · Post by **WhiteElkStag** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:16 am

I don't think that its necessary for a third-party to hold the records. I do think that it is necessary that whoever holds the records do so in a way that makes them accessible and proof from adulteration. The Tamaskan Database is a great start on this.

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:17 am

WhiteElkStag wrote:I don't think that its necessary for a third-party to hold the records. I do think that it is necessary that whoever holds the records do so in a way that makes them accessible and proof from adulteration. The Tamaskan Database is a great start on this.

I was thinking that too, but then again, a non-biased party will have to maintain the database...

AZDehlin · Post by **AZDehlin** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:21 am

arianwenarie wrote:
WhiteElkStag wrote:I don't think that its necessary for a third-party to hold the records. I do think that it is necessary that whoever holds the records do so in a way that makes them accessible and proof from adulteration. The Tamaskan Database is a great start on this.
I was thinking that too, but then again, a non-biased party will have to maintain the database...

Non-biased or have checks and balances

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:29 am

AZDehlin wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:I was thinking that too, but then again, a non-biased party will have to maintain the database...
Non-biased or have checks and balances

Perhaps a system of checks and balances may be more feasible/easier than finding a non-biased party...?

EDIT:
If there needs to be a group of individuals to maintain the database records, then I would volunteer myself.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:57 am

Whoa, I've never known about this case and am also a bit shocked about it.

But even though I ponder about what had happened to Foxy, I don't really think that any DNA sample from that mysterious bitch is necessary now that we all know that Nevada is the true dam. All I really care about now is that all of the dogs from that litter including Dylan are fine and that the pedigree for Dylan's pups with Freyja is fixed ASAP. The owners of the dogs may be pissed to hear about the mistakes but it's better for us as a community to accept that blemish than to try and cover it like what had happened with Bobbi only to let it grow and become another problem. But like I said in the other threads, other than correcting the pedigree, what's done is done and the future is what's important.

I understand that one litter can be sired by two male dogs but there is NO WAY for TWO dams to naturally give birth to ONE litter.

Post by **TerriHolt** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:11 am

maybe the above 2 could share the responsibility? i man it wad said that someone should have a 2nd copy.

edit.. above Lucas lol

issylupus · Post by **issylupus** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:25 am

There is just so much to digest and try to get an understanding of what's being said with this post and the wolf content post.
I would be interested to hear a responce from the Blustag and Blufawn side regarding what has been announced in this thread.

Gaby · Post by **Gaby** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:27 am

issylupus wrote:There is just so much to digest and try to get an understanding of what's being said with this post and the wolf content post.
I would be interested to hear a responce from the Blustag and Blufawn side regarding what has been announced in this thread.

Yes, some explanation would be nice.

nivenj · Post by **nivenj** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:57 am

Gaby wrote:
issylupus wrote:There is just so much to digest and try to get an understanding of what's being said with this post and the wolf content post.
I would be interested to hear a responce from the Blustag and Blufawn side regarding what has been announced in this thread.
Yes, some explanation would be nice.

I'm not really sure what can be expected. There have been countless opportunities for explanation already.

susann · Post by **susann** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:54 am

I'm not a writer.. just a reader.. but in every topic Blustag/Bluefawn have denied or at least defended them self... why not now?

Post by **Katlin** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:15 pm

susann wrote:I'm not a writer.. just a reader.. but in every topic Blustag/Bluefawn have denied or at least defended them self... why not now?

I've been wondering that same thing for hours

TeresaC · Post by **TeresaC** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:51 pm

I haven't jumped in here yet, but wanted to thank the TDR/Debby for your help in brining this to light and getting it fixed. John was a huge help in assisting me with my questions and concerns on this issue with this litter.

I had for a while been concerned about parentage, but wasn't sure why. As pieces began to not quite fit, I asked to have the DNA parentage test run.

At the end of the day, the truth is out here. We can now correct our pedigrees. I now know who I can breed to with confidence and can finally move forward with finding a female with confidence knowing the truth.

I don't know the reasons why, at this point, don't care. We love Dylan very much. He is who he is. The truth is now out. Thank you.

Finn1 · Post by **Finn1** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:55 pm

Hi, can I be really thick here? Is the accusation (is that to strong a word?) that Foxy didn't exist? if so does that mean the whole of the 'Fire' litter (I think that is what it was called) didn't exist and were just fabricated to ensure there was a cover story for the back to back breeding of Nevada?

Or is it that 'Foxy' was a real dog but given an accidental mating of Nevada was used to cover that fact. (If it was accidental surely she would not of been used for hr following season?). You see that is what I am struggling with in terms of all of this. I am trying to determine the level of pre mediation by the breeders and then the subsequent damage to the breed as a result. Not to mention the over breeding of poor Nevada. Please don't take this that I am trying to stir this one up. It is just because this for me is the biggest issue out of all of the revelations.

Dallas · Post by **Dallas** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:59 pm

arianwenarie wrote:So does this mean that the "Fire" litter in 2007 does not exist? Before the "Forum Friendliness" thread was deleted, I believe I had seen a post made by Jennie regarding the litter information that produce Blustag Fire Fox (Foxy).

Rahne wrote:The 'Fire' litter does exists. Maybe 'Fire Fox' also exists and her name was misused for this litter OR they made up an extra puppy, as happened with 'Blustag Apache Horse'.

I'd say we'll have to wait for Lynn or Jenny to get on to explain that part

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:02 pm

Finn1 wrote:Hi, can I be really thick here? Is the accusation (is that to strong a word?) that Foxy didn't exist? if so does that mean the whole of the 'Fire' litter (I think that is what it was called) didn't exist and were just fabricated to ensure there was a cover story for the back to back breeding of Nevada?

Or is it that 'Foxy' was a real dog but given an accidental mating of Nevada was used to cover that fact. (If it was accidental surely she would not of been used for hr following season?). You see that is what I am struggling with in terms of all of this. I am trying to determine the level of pre mediation by the breeders and then the subsequent damage to the breed as a result. Not to mention the over breeding of poor Nevada. Please don't take this that I am trying to stir this one up. It is just because this for me is the biggest issue out of all of the revelations.

I believe the issue may be the suspicion that pedigrees were falsified to cover up a back-to-back mating of Nevada. Whether the mating was accidental or not, no one can comment on that but the breeder herself, Blustag.

Following the "Sugalba" litter, there was a one year gap between Nevada's next litter, the "States" litter with Skye (repeated mating).

Ciaobella · Post by **Ciaobella** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:59 am

I would also like to hear some type of explanation or apology from the 3 parties involved. It's the least they could do.

Tropicalbreeze · Post by **Tropicalbreeze** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:43 am

A few replies back...it was asked why Blustag and Blufawn haven't been on to respond to this whole situation.

To me it's damned if they do...damned if they don't in terms of addressing topics. I have a feeling if and when they say something it will never satisfy most people.

Whether you think they're right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle - I wouldn't blame them for being out of the forum for now. In fact, I think Debby or somebody else told me that by choice to calm things down, they're refraining from comments.

Personally, I don't equate this being away as the same as ducking the issue.

As for this litter... My wife and I own one of them. We were promised a nice, healthy, puppy that is good around other dogs and even cats. That's what we got and we'd do it again.

Post by **Tarheel** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:06 am

The Committee is providing that FACTS and only the Facts at this moment. If is much more important for everyone to have a clear understanding of what evidence has been provided. People may speculate as to the existance of Foxy, a covered up back to back breeding, or whatever. The TDR is trying to get to the whole truth and until other evidence is brought to light we have to stick to what we know and can prove.

1. 2 Pig litter pups DNA showed that Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) was the mother of the Pig Litter and Blustag Little Bear was the sire.
2. Foxy belonged to Alison Lange at the time of mating and was living and working with Blustag at the time the pups were born.
3. The TDR Secretary improperly handled any and all health records that were taken of Foxy. There is no record of BVA Hips, DNA, or microchip information that can be found.
4. Alison and Blustag had a falling out and Alison left Blustag. Alison has refused to answer emails sent by me. Alison has removed certain Committee members from her Facebook page to include Debby and myself.
5. It was reported that Alison re-homed Foxy, but cannot get in touch with the new owner to provide a new sample of DNA from Foxy.
6. The only person that I believe Alison remans in contact with is Jennie.

These are the facts as I know them. If anyone ele has facts, please include them.

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:32 am

Thanks for the clarification, John. In light of the facts presented, do you feel/think that it is a viable option to have all of the Pig Litter dogs go through a parentage test? That is, if all other avenues to see if the "issues"* (see note) surround Blustag Fire Fox (Fox) at Sugalba, the dam on official TDR pedigrees for the Pig Litter cannot be resolved.

*note: Please use this term loosely. This is the best term I could come up with and likely could be a better word to categorize this. My apologize if it has offended anyone.

Thanks.

Post by **Tarheel** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:05 am

I do know that another DNA test is going to be conducted on another pig litter pup. I can see the possiblity of a litter having multiple Sires, but it is not possible that a litter would have multiple Dams. Any more testing of additional Pig litter pups will only back up the evidence already shown. What is needed is DNA of Foxy. If guidelines were followed and records accurately kept, this whole situation would have never got to this level.

Gaby · Post by **Gaby** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:20 am

Tarheel wrote:I do know that another DNA test is going to be conducted on another pig litter pup. I can see the possiblity of a litter having multiple Sires, but it is not possible that a litter would have multiple Dams. Any more testing of additional Pig litter pups will only back up the evidence already shown. What is needed is DNA of Foxy. If guidelines were followed and records accurately kept, this whole situation would have never got to this level.

Foxy's DNA is not needed to pinpoint the dam of the Pig litter, isn't it? There is already the evidence that it could be no other than Nevada, or am I wrong? Because I don't think Foxy will ever be found...

Ciaobella · Post by **Ciaobella** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:30 am

Gaby wrote:
Tarheel wrote:I do know that another DNA test is going to be conducted on another pig litter pup. I can see the possiblity of a litter having multiple Sires, but it is not possible that a litter would have multiple Dams. Any more testing of additional Pig litter pups will only back up the evidence already shown. What is needed is DNA of Foxy. If guidelines were followed and records accurately kept, this whole situation would have never got to this level.
Foxy's DNA is not needed to pinpoint the dam of the Pig litter, isn't it? There is already the evidence that it could be no other than Nevada, or am I wrong? Because I don't think Foxy will ever be found...

I am with Gaby on this one. The whole "Foxy" thing is just suspicious to me. The fact that all of her papers "disappeared" and you have no contact with the current owner. Either irresponsibility at its finest or (what a suspect) a hoax.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:43 pm

For now I am still open to the possibility that the mysterious bitch exists even though she has already been proven not to be the true mother of that second litter and that her disappearance was based primarily off some horrible bad book-keeping. It's still a mystery to me as well but I do hope that the case is solved ASAP and that the current owner (whoever they are) can give us more info.

Post by **Tarheel** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:07 pm

All registered dogs have their registry paperwork that the owner holds with the dog. When a dog is re-homed the back of the regitration is supposed to be filled out showing transfer of ownership and sent back to the TDR for a new Registration to be issued with the new owner listed. This did not happen either.

Lucas, Wording is everything As you wrote "Even though she has already proven not to be the true mother of that second litter..."

What scientific testing has proven with a 99.9% degree of certainty is that Nevada is the mother. Nowhere has any tests been recieved that excluded Foxy as the mother.
We have proof that Nevada is the mother.
We do not have proof one way or the other on Foxy.

Post by **Nino** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:54 pm

The dog might exist, but she might not .. either is likely, it might be a dog that is owned by someone not in the community and never owned by sugalba.
All that we know is that Nevada is the dam of said litter, in this conclusion Foxy is not really that important anymore.

I would still like an explanation from the involved though..

Post by **Katlin** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:08 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:For now I am still open to the possibility that the mysterious bitch exists even though she has already been proven not to be the true mother of that second litter and that her disappearance was based primarily off some horrible bad book-keeping. It's still a mystery to me as well but I do hope that the case is solved ASAP and that the current owner (whoever they are) can give us more info.

it is solved. The mother of the litter is Nevada, as stated dozens of times before.

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 pm

I do think that there are three separate issues here that need addressing and will be done so in due time:

1) Is Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) the dam of the "Sugalba" Pigs Litter? If so, to fully prove it, I feel all dogs from this litter need to have a parentage analysis done to fully remove any doubt, despite speculations and other strong evidence. That is, if Blustag Fire Fox (Foxy) at Sugalba cannot be located to do a cross-comparison.

2) If Blustag Fire Fox exists, is she the same one referenced as the dam of the "Sugalba" Pigs Litter? If she is the same one claimed to be the dam of this litter, where was she at the time of whelping and nursing as well as subsequently. Who was she rehomed with and how can a TDR rep contact the new owner to obtain a DNA sample? In addition to that, if her health records (required breeding criteria) are available, then official copies should be given to the TDR Committee members as well.

3) If it has been proven that Blustag Bindaree (Nevada) is the dam of Sugalba Pigs Might Fly (Dylan) at Moondance, then the Hawthorne Yellowstone litter owners must be provided with accurate pedigree documents as well as subsequent Sugalba Pig Litter dogs that have tested as such.

Dallas · Post by **Dallas** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:15 pm

it is solved. The mother of the litter is Nevada, as stated dozens of times before.

I think he's talking about the 'does Foxy exist or not' issue, and seeing as Jennie is the only one (correct me if I'm wrong) who is still in contact with Sugalba we'll have to wait for one of them to get on

TeresaC · Post by **TeresaC** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:16 pm

Katlin wrote: it is solved. The mother of the litter is Nevada, as stated dozens of times before.

Yes. And this is really all that matters. This way I can now truly look for a mate for Dylan and be sure that the bitch I select for him is the right one. It also reasurres me that I know who he is a match for in the USA as a stud dog.

At the end of they day, this is what matters. He is healthy, happy, and we love him. We can all now move on.

Dylan's offspring have been notified so those with intentions of breeding are aware as well. Forward progress.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:46 pm

Tarheel wrote:All registered dogs have their registry paperwork that the owner holds with the dog. When a dog is re-homed the back of the regitration is supposed to be filled out showing transfer of ownership and sent back to the TDR for a new Registration to be issued with the new owner listed. This did not happen either.

Lucas, Wording is everything As you wrote "Even though she has already proven not to be the true mother of that second litter..."

What scientific testing has proven with a 99.9% degree of certainty is that Nevada is the mother. Nowhere has any tests been recieved that excluded Foxy as the mother.
We have proof that Nevada is the mother.
We do not have proof one way or the other on Foxy.

Sorry I did do a bad wording. I meant to say that Nevada is the mother of the litter and not Foxy.

Eventide · Post by **Eventide** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:01 am

TeresaC wrote:
Katlin wrote: it is solved. The mother of the litter is Nevada, as stated dozens of times before.
Yes. And this is really all that matters. This way I can now truly look for a mate for Dylan and be sure that the bitch I select for him is the right one. It also reasurres me that I know who he is a match for in the USA as a stud dog.

At the end of they day, this is what matters. He is healthy, happy, and we love him. We can all now move on.

Dylan's offspring have been notified so those with intentions of breeding are aware as well. Forward progress.

I agree completely and my Max's Daddy is Dylan (who's Mom was in question until recently) and I know my boy's Mom is, Frejya, and we wouldn't change a thing - thank you Teresa. More importantly, Max and I get to meet his Daddy at the US club show next week!!

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:24 am

Dottie wrote:
I agree completely and my Max's Daddy is Dylan (who's Mom was in question until recently) and I know my boy's Mom is, Frejya, and we wouldn't change a thing - thank you Teresa. More importantly, Max and I get to meet his Daddy at the US club show next week!!

I wonder if Dylan and Max act similar in anyways. If so you can take a photo of them doing something identical and label "like father like son"

Eventide · Post by **Eventide** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:59 am

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
Dottie wrote:
I agree completely and my Max's Daddy is Dylan (who's Mom was in question until recently) and I know my boy's Mom is, Frejya, and we wouldn't change a thing - thank you Teresa. More importantly, Max and I get to meet his Daddy at the US club show next week!!
I wonder if Dylan and Max act similar in anyways. If so you can take a photo of them doing something identical and label "like father like son"

I can't wait to see them side-by-side. I've seen so many picts of Dyland he Max looks so much like him. As I have been with Freyja a couple time, I have also seen her temperament in Max.

Hawthorne · Post by **Hawthorne** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:57 pm

I just told Teresa last night that it would be fun to try and get a group photo of the pups, Freyja and Dylan all together. "Family reunion!"

(cheese!!!)

TeresaC · Post by **TeresaC** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:12 am

Hawthorne wrote:I just told Teresa last night that it would be fun to try and get a group photo of the pups, Freyja and Dylan all together. "Family reunion!" (cheese!!!)

Or cheesey

Dottie I am looking forward to meeting you and Max. Regardless of who Dylan's mother is on paper, he is a beautiful boy even if he is a bed hog! Must be why they are the pig litter...

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:40 pm

So far I remember seeing on facebook (though now deleted), they wrote that Sugalba will be coming forward to explain what had happened to Foxy. But I haven't seen any post from them.

Dallas · Post by **Dallas** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:02 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:So far I remember seeing on facebook (though now deleted), they wrote that Sugalba will be coming forward to explain what had happened to Foxy. But I haven't seen any post from them.

and I doubt you'll see any. Seeing as they just said that they won't talk about it on fb anymore.
You'd have to mail them to get an answer, and even then I'd say you probably won't get one.

Post by **TerriHolt** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:07 pm

Dallas wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:So far I remember seeing on facebook (though now deleted), they wrote that Sugalba will be coming forward to explain what had happened to Foxy. But I haven't seen any post from them.
and I doubt you'll see any. Seeing as they just said that they won't talk about it on fb anymore.
You'd have to mail them to get an answer, and even then I'd say you probably won't get one.

You can mail them till you go blue... they will say you faked it

You know, when i have proof of something... I can't wait to share it with the world... Not hide it.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:09 pm

Agree,

I've already seen too much excuses now

Post by **Nino** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 pm

Dallas wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:So far I remember seeing on facebook (though now deleted), they wrote that Sugalba will be coming forward to explain what had happened to Foxy. But I haven't seen any post from them.
and I doubt you'll see any. Seeing as they just said that they won't talk about it on fb anymore.
You'd have to mail them to get an answer, and even then I'd say you probably won't get one.

They also said you should write the TDR Committee - and thereby I assume they mean Lynn and/or Jennie and you will get nothing from doing that, as usual..

Post by **TerriHolt** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:15 pm

Nino wrote:
Dallas wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:So far I remember seeing on facebook (though now deleted), they wrote that Sugalba will be coming forward to explain what had happened to Foxy. But I haven't seen any post from them.
and I doubt you'll see any. Seeing as they just said that they won't talk about it on fb anymore.
You'd have to mail them to get an answer, and even then I'd say you probably won't get one.
They also said you should write the TDR Committee - and thereby I assume they mean Lynn and/or Jennie and you will get nothing from doing that, as usual..

Understanding of why Regi was so frustrated is setting in

(well, actually did some time ago, just more so everyday)

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:31 pm

I agree, I've lost the trust I once had to them as well after all this. Just look what was written after taking off the post about Sugalba.

Please do not clutter this page with politics. This page is for owners and breeders of Tamaskan to post photographs. If you have any issues or questions then please direct them to the TDR under private email at tamaskan.register@yahoo.com
Thank you

Way to chicken out!

Didn't screenshot the deleted post but most of you've already seen it anyways so it doesn't matter.

Dallas · Post by **Dallas** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:41 pm

seen it
and liked Ninos post about them starting the whole Sugalba thing on their page

Post by **Nino** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:49 pm

Saw it.. doesn't change the fact that they brought up Sugalba themselves

Post by **TerriHolt** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:50 pm

Dallas wrote:seen it
and liked Ninos post about them starting the whole Sugalba thing on their page

I have a screenie of that one

(habit

)

Nahani · Post by **Nahani** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Seeing as Sugalba is Jennie's best friend also I find it hard to believe they have no idea where this dog Foxy is...like has been said before...if she ever really existed anyway.

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