Rahne's Database

balto13 · Post by **balto13** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:34 am

Thank you Rahne for working on the new database, I know it's still under construction but it looks great

Katlin · Post by **Katlin** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm

The database is still under discussion...as far as I know this is not the OFFICIAL TDR database because it includes litters that were not registered with the TDR.

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:17 pm

Katlin wrote:...as far as I know this is not the OFFICIAL TDR database because it includes litters that were not registered with the TDR.

Indeed, it's meant to be an open database.

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:16 pm

Rahne wrote:
Katlin wrote:...as far as I know this is not the OFFICIAL TDR database because it includes litters that were not registered with the TDR.
Indeed, it's meant to be an open database.

So does this mean that dogs registered with the TDR will show with "TDR" in their registration number?

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:18 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Rahne wrote:
Katlin wrote:...as far as I know this is not the OFFICIAL TDR database because it includes litters that were not registered with the TDR.
Indeed, it's meant to be an open database.
So does this mean that dogs registered with the TDR will show with "TDR" in their registration number?

Yes, they do

Nino · Post by **Nino** » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:12 pm

great that it is up..

would you mind adding the death date to Sølve?
17th May 2013

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Nino wrote:great that it is up..

would you mind adding the death date to Sølve?
17th May 2013

No problem, will add it to my update list.

Eventide · Post by **Eventide** » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:44 pm

Thanks so much for reposting this database. Could you also add Max's (Hawthorne Hellroaring Canyon) hip score from BVA - 9 (3 and 6) to his health record.

Thanks for all your help.

Nino · Post by **Nino** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:24 am

Rahne wrote:
Nino wrote:great that it is up..

would you mind adding the death date to Sølve?
17th May 2013
No problem, will add it to my update list.

thanks

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:36 pm

Will there be informations about wolf-contents in the new database?

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Tiantai wrote:Will there be informations about wolf-contents in the new database?

Maybe.

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:05 pm

So there has been some discussion about the database... I have my reasons for removing it from the TDR website and have it run under my own control as an 'open' database that's not directly affiliated with any registry/club.

I was told I had no right to take it away, that the database is owned by the TDR and that any info collected was given to the TDR (not to me personally) so I can't use it for my own 'benefit'.
I very much disagree... however I don't feel like fighting over this so I have emptied the database, and it only lists breeders and (stud)dogs from the Dutch and German Tamaskan clubs at the moment. If anyone wants to have their kennel or (stud)dog (re)added, contact me. NOTE: THIS DATABASE IS NO LONGER AFFLIATED DIRECTLY WITH THE TDR!

I have rewritten some of the code, and still have some work to do, so some features have been removed. Yes they will be back, probably in a different form though.

http://www.tamaskan-database.com

Booma · Post by **Booma** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:20 pm

Tiantai wrote:Will there be informations about wolf-contents in the new database?

wolfdogs are illegal in a lot of places, so i dont think it would be a good idea to add that.

Cornelia1986 · Post by **Cornelia1986** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:58 pm

I do not understand why you've removed all other dogs except the one from the netherlands and germany... Is there another database with the TDR dogs from the rest of the world? And I still do not understand why so many people run away from the TDR and create theit own stud books - now after everything is clear, without Lynn's lies arround. This makes it really confusing for me

Maybe I'm too dumb to see a bigger picture...

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:05 pm

Cornelia1986 wrote:I do not understand why you've removed all other dogs except the one from the netherlands and germany... Is there another database with the TDR dogs from the rest of the world? And I still do not understand why so many people run away from the TDR and create theit own stud books - now after everything is clear, without Lynn's lies arround. This makes it really confusing for me Maybe I'm too dumb to see a bigger picture...

I explained why I removed all dogs... because the TDR feels the info that was given to me is theirs so I can't use this info anymore without permission from the breeder/owner. Even though I disagree (as 75% of info was given to me BEFORE I was TDR Secretary) I don't want to fight about this, so I removed all except those I got permission from. It is no longer the TDR database, it is MY database.
We are not running away and creating our own stud books btw, but not going to discuss that here as it is off-topic.

TerriHolt · Post by **TerriHolt** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:08 am

Kylievr wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Will there be informations about wolf-contents in the new database?

wolfdogs are illegal in a lot of places, so i dont think it would be a good idea to add that.

I really doubt it would be put there against people's will... A voluntary contribution to aid people in looking for lines with the lesser proven content wouldn't hurt anything.

Booma · Post by **Booma** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:39 am

TerriHolt wrote:
Kylievr wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Will there be informations about wolf-contents in the new database?

wolfdogs are illegal in a lot of places, so i dont think it would be a good idea to add that.

I really doubt it would be put there against people's will... A voluntary contribution to aid people in looking for lines with the lesser proven content wouldn't hurt anything.

Yes but what is the point of marking only some as having wolf content. People could think that just because it doesn't say it, then they have no content. A breeder may have a dog that has tested positive, or comes from wolfdog lines but lives somewhere where they are illegal.
Perhaps it should be the other way round, and dogs that have tested negative for wolf content can be marked down.

weylyn · Post by **weylyn** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:46 pm

Kylievr wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:
Kylievr wrote:

wolfdogs are illegal in a lot of places, so i dont think it would be a good idea to add that.

I really doubt it would be put there against people's will... A voluntary contribution to aid people in looking for lines with the lesser proven content wouldn't hurt anything.

Yes but what is the point of marking only some as having wolf content. People could think that just because it doesn't say it, then they have no content. A breeder may have a dog that has tested positive, or comes from wolfdog lines but lives somewhere where they are illegal.
Perhaps it should be the other way round, and dogs that have tested negative for wolf content can be marked down.

I agree here a bit with Kylie. Why mark it when you can put dogs in danger by it and even when we still want to use low content that are considered dogs in most countries for the look for the genepool. Somewhere in the future we all hope they will all test negative on that part after a few generations and the genepool have a good strong foundation

Katlin · Post by **Katlin** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:07 pm

Yeah I'm also with Kylie, if someone really wants info then they can ask the owners and the owners can provide at their discretion...it shouldn't be public IMHO.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:30 pm

What about listing the called names in the Pedigree next to the registered names as well?

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:40 pm

Tiantai wrote:What about listing the called names in the Pedigree next to the registered names as well?

No you normally don't list call names in pedigrees, besides it would become a bit to crowded...

arianwenarie · Post by **arianwenarie** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:45 pm

Rahne wrote:
Tiantai wrote:What about listing the called names in the Pedigree next to the registered names as well?
No you normally don't list call names in pedigrees, besides it would become a bit to crowded...

If there are limited space to add pertinent information, I'd rather see health testing information of the dogs in the pedigree added instead.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:14 pm

As long as all of the dogs that were previously shown on the official website can be seen on the database with every correct informations again then I will be fine with that. I really hope that you will get the permit of all those owners once again because it really sucks to see all the gaps at the moment. I strongly believe that it is crucial that the database has all of those infos displayed so that future owners will know what they are getting and what disease may be carried in the breed and I am confident that you and a lot of other shares this view.

Especially since the Blu breeders have a history of forging informations which has caused tons of confusions in the past and I don't want to see anymore people slipped into that trap. It's too bad that we still have newer people believing in the two but I do hope that once this new database is complete again they will be able to see the correct info and know what appropriate steps to take.

YouTube · Post by **Sylvaen** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:16 pm

Tiantai wrote:As long as all of the dogs that were previously shown on the official website can be seen on the database with every correct informations again then I will be fine with that. I really hope that you will get the permit of all those owners once again because it really sucks to see all the gaps at the moment.

Unfortunately that won't be possible. Some owners have since passed away and the breeders who bred those dogs are no longer registered with the TDR so it would be impossible for Rahne to get the required permission to list those dogs, which means the database will never be entirely complete.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:06 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Tiantai wrote:As long as all of the dogs that were previously shown on the official website can be seen on the database with every correct informations again then I will be fine with that. I really hope that you will get the permit of all those owners once again because it really sucks to see all the gaps at the moment.
Unfortunately that won't be possible. Some owners have since passed away and the breeders who bred those dogs are no longer registered with the TDR so it would be impossible for Rahne to get the required permission to list those dogs, which means the database will never be entirely complete.

I believe it is possible to ask the current caretakers though. Shouldn't the permit come from their current owners? Not just their previous ones?

Rahne · Post by **Rahne** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:47 pm

Tiantai wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Tiantai wrote:As long as all of the dogs that were previously shown on the official website can be seen on the database with every correct informations again then I will be fine with that. I really hope that you will get the permit of all those owners once again because it really sucks to see all the gaps at the moment.
Unfortunately that won't be possible. Some owners have since passed away and the breeders who bred those dogs are no longer registered with the TDR so it would be impossible for Rahne to get the required permission to list those dogs, which means the database will never be entirely complete.
I believe it is possible to ask the current caretakers though. Shouldn't the permit come from their current owners? Not just their previous ones?

Yes Lucas, their current owner will need to give permission.
The database would have never been 'complete' to start with, as we just don't know where 25% of all Tamaskan ended up... doesn't matter if it lists all dogs previously in the TDR database.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:05 am

I see, that's a shame. But I'm sure it will work out somehow. Debby taught me to hang in there when things go wrong and it has worked so many times even though the way most of the situations that worked out for me weren't exactly how I expected at the time.

I hope you will at least be bale to find out where most of those 25% of the dogs ended up.

Tana · Post by **Tana** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:22 pm

Why are some (new) breeders and planned litters only on this website and not on the official TDR website? Are they all registered? It is a little bit confusing...

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:28 am

Tana wrote:Why are some (new) breeders and planned litters only on this website and not on the official TDR website? Are they all registered? It is a little bit confusing...

All I know is that there's still a lot of mess to sort out right now. Some of the breeders' websites are also barely updated because of a lot of other issues but keep in mind that even the breeders and others involved have their own personal lives outside to deal with as well. There are also some dogs who were never registered or have yet to be registered with the TDR such as some of the ones bred by Judy and Jim. But hopefully everything gets cleared up in the future

Tana · Post by **Tana** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:42 pm

IMHO, I think it is very important for the breed, especially since it is still under development, to stand together, set up goals of the breeding and keep records.

Anyway, I understand the situation completely and I hope everything gets cleared up in the future, as you said!

HiTenshi16 · Post by **HiTenshi16** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:28 pm

Tana wrote:IMHO, I think it is very important for the breed, especially since it is still under development, to stand together, set up goals of the breeding and keep records.

Anyway, I understand the situation completely and I hope everything gets cleared up in the future, as you said!

+1!

AZDehlin · Post by **AZDehlin** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:12 pm

Tana wrote:Why are some (new) breeders and planned litters only on this website and not on the official TDR website? Are they all registered? It is a little bit confusing...

If they haven't signed the TDR Contract they will not be listed as TDR Breeders at this time… there are still missing contracts from some of the listed breeders. Also if breeders do not contact the TDR with a confirmed pregnancy they can't be listed on the website. If the litters aren't listed on the Litter listings page on the TDR site by the pups going to their new homes then they aren't registered Tamaskan.

Wolfsbane · Post by **Wolfsbane** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:51 pm

Sylvaen wrote: There used to be a public TDR database for all registered Tamaskan Dogs... but the person who created that database (for free) decided to take it offline one day and then create her own personal database instead since she decided she wanted to be paid for her code / voluntary work (quoting a sum of 10,000 euros) and wanted to reserve the right to charge fees in the future for breeders to access certain "special features" of this new database. Her new database includes unregistered Tamaskan Dogs / unregistered outcross litters, and lists unregistered breeders as well as "future breeders" who have never yet produced a Tamaskan litter (some don't even have Tamaskan Dogs that can be used for breeding). As a result, many TDR registered breeders decided they would rather not participate in such a database since it is a personal database, rather than a professional one, and doesn't accurately reflect the actual number of Tamaskan Dogs worldwide. Hopefully there will be a new official (professional) TDR database soon, for all registered Tamaskan Dogs worldwide.

It's so easy to make up your own story when the person it is about, isn't on this forum...

Sylvaen wrote:...but the person who created that database (for free) decided to take it offline one day and then create her own personal database instead since she decided she wanted to be paid for her code / voluntary work (quoting a sum of 10,000 euros) and wanted to reserve the right to charge fees in the future for breeders to access certain "special features" of this new database.

I didn't take the database away because I wanted to be paid for it. I put it on a different domain name as I wanted it to be unaffiliated with the TDR register, like the Saarloos database here (http://saarlooswolfdog.com/search_db.asp?Lid=1) or the CsV database here (http://wolfdog.org/dbase).

Sylvaen wrote:Her new database includes unregistered Tamaskan Dogs / unregistered outcross litters, and lists unregistered breeders as well as "future breeders" who have never yet produced a Tamaskan litter (some don't even have Tamaskan Dogs that can be used for breeding).

Unregistered TDR Tamaskan Dogs yes. But ooohhh wait, they are no true Tamaskan ofcourse because the ohh so holy TDR didn't register them

Sylvaen wrote: As a result, many TDR registered breeders decided they would rather not participate in such a database since it is a personal database, rather than a professional one, and doesn't accurately reflect the actual number of Tamaskan Dogs worldwide.

What is many? There are several TDR registered breeders who support it. You don't... however it is very convenient of course to use it anyways to print/lookup pedigrees as you did above

YouTube · Post by **Sylvaen** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:49 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:It's so easy to make up your own story when the person it is about, isn't on this forum...

If you chose to delete your account and leave the forum, how can you hold other people responsible for that?
Notice I didn't use your name or reference you personally in any way... yet you claim I am "making up my own story"?

It's is MY decision to make as it's MY work. Did I ever sell the scripts to the TDR? No. Did I ever sign a contract or stated that the scripts were property of the Tamaskan Dog Register? No. The information that was IN the database, that was given to the TDR... not the framework it runs on! I have handed over all the information in an excel spread sheet to Katelyn.

Do you know how much it costs if you let a business create the framework for a pedigree database? Amounts in the thousands of dollars. I don't think the TDR wants to pay that amount to get full rights on my scripting?

I have made the decision to run it independently from now on, not affiliated with any club or register. I want the database to be a source for ALL, and not just listing dogs/breeders from this or that club/faction. Most breed databases are run this way, just take a look at http://saarlooswolfdog.com/ or http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase for example. I'm currently re-designing the framework and redoing some of the scripts as they were buggy. It takes a lot of time and effort, I've been coding non-stop for 2 weeks now (starting at 10 am and stopping at 11 pm)... not exaggerating. I'm hoping to improve the framework in a way that it can be sold as a business product to breeders/clubs. Like this: http://www.zooeasy.com/en/pedigree-soft ... index.html

Anyways, I will not be moving it back to the TDR website. It's my work and I want to keep full control over it, until it's ready to be sold as a business product.. but then it will cost money! I've send Katelyn a link to a free database script that the TDR could use if they want to have a database run on the TDR website.

Yes, obviously your decision had nothing to do with financial motivations whatsoever... I guess I just have a very active imagination.

Wolfsbane wrote:Unregistered TDR Tamaskan Dogs yes. But ooohhh wait, they are no true Tamaskan ofcourse because the ohh so holy TDR didn't register them

The "ohh so holy TDR" would have registered those litters if the breeders themselves were registered with the TDR (if they had signed the TDR Breeder's Contract and agreed to abide by TDR breeding rules) and/or IF those litters met the requirements for TDR registration... IF breeders are not registered with the TDR and/or refuse to hand over health documentation for their breeding dogs and/or simply choose not to register their litters with the TDR, how can you blame this on the "ohh so holy TDR"?

Wolfsbane wrote:What is many? There are several TDR registered breeders who support it. You don't... however it is very convenient of course to use it anyways to print/lookup pedigrees as you did above

Heaven forbid someone (especially a TDR breeder who isn't listed on that website!) should visit a publicly-accessible database and use it to help other people (and help answer their questions) FOR FREE?! what IS the world coming too... yes, so convenient to help other people; I must be a really terrible, despicable person. How DARE I use YOUR website/database and spend my time helping others by utilizing some of the info it contains to better answer questions they might have about their dog - I guess it is better to just leave the questions unanswered?

This whole conversation is rapidly becoming rather juvenile. Sorry to hijack your thread, Jen.

Wolfsbane · Post by **Wolfsbane** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:54 pm

Sylvaen wrote: This whole conversation is rapidly becoming rather juvenile. Sorry to hijack your thread, Jen.

You are right! Considering you are posting PRIVATE EMAILS FROM ME on a public forum!

YouTube · Post by **Sylvaen** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:07 pm

Yep, and for that I apologize... but if you continue to attempt to convince people that I am lying or making up stories, I will collaborate it with fact even if I have to stoop so low as to publish private emails. Otherwise it is just too easy to say one thing privately, and another thing publicly. The bottom line is, I really don't even want to fight with you about this... I have no desire or motivation to argue with you.

Wolfsbane · Post by **Wolfsbane** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:10 pm

Well you are stating it as a fact that my motivation to remove it was purely financial (to make me look bad I suppose), that's not true.
Who paid me to use the database or have their dogs listed? No one. So much for my financial motives...
I don't care about TDR registration, this database is meant for Tamaskan Dogs, therefor I removed it from the TDR website. Simple as that.

I'm hoping to improve the framework in a way that it can be sold as a business product to breeders/clubs.

In case you don't understand what this means... it means my CODE/FRAMEWORK will be sold to other clubs that can use it to create their own breed database. Similar to the current Tamaskan Database, under their own full control. The Tamaskan Database IS and will STAY free to use to the public.

I'm considering making special features, available to breeders, who will be asked to pay a small fee. This is purely to cover my hosting costs, nothing more. No one will be FORCED to pay anything... everyone can view pedigrees, health info etc.

It's my work and I want to keep full control over it, until it's ready to be sold as a business product.. but then it will cost money!

With this I was saying I will not give anyone rights to use my CODE/FRAMEWORK until it is ready. Then it can be purchased, see reply above. This was in answer (if I remember correctly) to a TDR member asking if they could purchase my CODE/FRAMEWORK. Again, the Tamaskan Database IS and will STAY free to use to the public.

Tiantai · Post by **Tiantai** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:06 pm

Oh please, enough drama already

While I am happy to see that Wolfsbane is back, this infight is really not needed. I don't want to sound like I am trying to overtake the topic but I am thinking of asking an admin or mod to lock the thread should this pollution continues. Yeah I sound hypocritical, and maybe this is an impulsive behaviour. But seriously.

nivenj · Post by **nivenj** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:50 pm

Publicly posting private messages

It seems like only yesterday I was being flamed for the same thing

It really is a shame. The Tamaskan is such a wonderful dog, that will never flourish as much as it could because of 1 or 2 individuals on a power trip. The person who created the database has absolute right to do with it as they wish and need give no explanation beyond that.

HiTenshi16 · Post by **HiTenshi16** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:26 pm

nivenj wrote:Publicly posting private messages

It seems like only yesterday I was being flamed for the same thing

It really is a shame. The Tamaskan is such a wonderful dog, that will never flourish as much as it could because of 1 or 2 individuals on a power trip. The person who created the database has absolute right to do with it as they wish and need give no explanation beyond that.

Now I really must ask, because you always post when some sort of drama has escalated, or you are trying to make someone look bad, why do you come on the forum if you are not looking for/giving advice on the breed or just enjoying the photos?

And the Tamaskans you are supporting from Blustag and Blufawn indeed will not flourish because of those 2 individuals on their power trip (yes, I am aware you were not talking about those two).

Valravn · Post by **Valravn** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:51 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:Well you are stating it as a fact that my motivation to remove it was purely financial (to make me look bad I suppose), that's not true.
Who paid me to use the database or have their dogs listed? No one. So much for my financial motives...
I don't care about TDR registration, this database is meant for Tamaskan Dogs, therefor I removed it from the TDR website. Simple as that.

I'm hoping to improve the framework in a way that it can be sold as a business product to breeders/clubs.
In case you don't understand what this means... it means my CODE/FRAMEWORK will be sold to other clubs that can use it to create their own breed database. Similar to the current Tamaskan Database, under their own full control. The Tamaskan Database IS and will STAY free to use to the public.

I'm considering making special features, available to breeders, who will be asked to pay a small fee. This is purely to cover my hosting costs, nothing more. No one will be FORCED to pay anything... everyone can view pedigrees, health info etc.

It's my work and I want to keep full control over it, until it's ready to be sold as a business product.. but then it will cost money!
With this I was saying I will not give anyone rights to use my CODE/FRAMEWORK until it is ready. Then it can be purchased, see reply above. This was in answer (if I remember correctly) to a TDR member asking if they could purchase my CODE/FRAMEWORK. Again, the Tamaskan Database IS and will STAY free to use to the public.

This site needs a Like button.

nivenj · Post by **nivenj** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:47 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote: And the Tamaskans you are supporting from Blustag and Blufawn indeed will not flourish because of those 2 individuals on their power trip (yes, I am aware you were not talking about those two).

I'm supporting Blustag and Blufawn?

How do you come to that conclusion exactly?

I was one of the people who held Blustag and Blufawn to account over their misrepresentation of the breed and falsified pedigrees, and would love nothing more than to see the pair banned from breeding any dogs (or indeed any animals) indefinitely. So how you came to the conclusion I am supporting them is bewildering.

HiTenshi16 · Post by **HiTenshi16** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:33 pm

Is not the "National Tamaskan Club UK" that you have as your signature and pic the Blus club? Didn't you make the www.tamaskandogregister.com/ (expired domain) your site that went on bashing the real TDR and claimed that the Blus ran the 'true' TDR?
If I am wrong, then I apologize as this was the information that was passed down the grapevine so to speak.

Booma · Post by **Booma** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:59 pm

This is getting off topic guys.

nivenj · Post by **nivenj** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:02 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:Is not the "National Tamaskan Club UK" that you have as your signature and pic the Blus club? Didn't you make the http://www.tamaskandogregister.com/ (expired domain) your site that went on bashing the real TDR and claimed that the Blus ran the 'true' TDR?
If I am wrong, then I apologize as this was the information that was passed down the grapevine so to speak.

The NTCUK is my own personal site, and was created by me initially to build a UK club. However it never really took off because there were disagreements between the TDR UK Committee rep and myself. I wanted it to be independent and outside the control of the TDR Committee so we could provide clear unbiased information, they did not. It has and never has been anything to do with the blu's.

Also, despite being accused and threatened by certain members of the TDR committee around that other site, this was never anything to do with me.

I do however appreciate and accept your apology. A lesson that you shouldn't always believe what you hear, especially with certain individuals from this community.

firleymj · Post by **firleymj** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:11 am

As someone new to the Tamaskan world (with only one dog [though hoping someday for more]), I state now that I am deeply saddened by much of the contents of this thread. I freely admit that I don't know all the facts, but I ask some of those participating to consider taking this out of public space, where it will not scare off and frustrate the newer members and the growing body of people now becoming interested in these wonderful animals.

If we are truly here for the good of the breed and of our dogs, then perhaps we should take a page from them: a well socialized dog knows when to play with others, and when to retreat to more private spaces. I do not want to say anyone has no right to say any lawful thing, but the only censorship that I consider desirable is self-censorship.

We come together here as a family united around a species and a breed. Let us therefore respect our relation to them and to each other.

The Lakota have a beautiful way of putting this. They call it mitakuye oyasin "all my relatives" (forgive the Anglicization of the alphabet)

I quote from a wonderful explanation by Albert White Hat, Sr.:
"By acknowledging someone as a relative, personal needs and desire are put aside and one practices self-discipline by respecting the idea" [that we are all family]

We need to treat each other as mitakuye oyasin.

Katlin · Post by **Katlin** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:05 pm

If you guys want this taken away from the public eye, but kept in the archive (private - only mods and admins can see it) then I would be happy to do that. It was brought out of the archive because everyone requested it to be. I agree though, it's drama that the breed doesn't need.

firleymj · Post by **firleymj** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:15 pm

Katlin,

I think you have a wonderful suggestion - a way to respect the need to have some "housekeeping" threads that are necessary and to give a space for people close to the breed to engage in discussion, sometimes with the passion that good people with differing ideas and perspectives bring - while at the same time remembering the basic reason we are here is to celebrate and inform about our wonderful dogs.

Mark

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