Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

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oliviagonzalez
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Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Hi All!

I'd like to first thank everyone for sharing so much information across this forum. I've spent a lot of time reading through a lot of topics and it's really been helpful. It's great that everyone wants to share beneficial information, keep everyone well informed, and help improve the breed.

This past September I received a pup from Vargskuggans in Sweden. At first I was not going to receive a breeding male, but as fortune has it, another buyer backed out and the boy I was given has the proper coat and markings per the breed standard. Ever since I found this out, I felt that I had a certain responsibility to explore the possibilities of breeding. As someone who has fallen in love with the Tamaskan breed, like all of you, I am dedicated to further improving and developing the breed. I have started researching more about breeding and the traits that are desired to pass down into future Tam generations. I've also spent a lot of time looking into the pedigrees of the breeding dogs used in the US and have compared them to my boy's bloodlines.

After briefly speaking with Kate (TDR Keeper of the Register) I've come to somewhat of a conclusion that the best option for finding a breed worthy female for my boy is to find an acceptable outcrossed female. Even though it is early on (I am not completely certain my dog has the correct scores to breed), I would like to get a second dog as a companion for Thorin and my home. Because I already prefer to have a female as my second dog, I think that finding one that has the potential for breeding is the best way to go.

I wanted to know if any of you had any resources for certain breeders that you look into when considering outcrossings, or if there are any that have been used in the past that are still active. I'm having trouble finding dogs that have the right look (and a documented pedigree) without having (or being claimed to have) high wolf content. Thanks!

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:18 pm

Is he from Leeloo x Midas? If so he hardly shares any relationship to the breeding Tamaskan dogs in the US except for Zephyr (who only sired a single litter). US breeders are having a difficult time finding suitable stud dogs because many are too closely related. It also isn't that easy to find suitable outcross.
I think he would make an excellent breeding male for many US Tamaskan breeding females if he passes all his health testing, so I don't see any reason to breed him to an outcross female only.

If you are looking to own a breeding female yourself that can be bred to him perhaps import another Tamaskan from Europe from an outcross mating.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:48 pm

Yes,he is from that litter and doesn't share much common blood with the US dogs. However, it was brought to my attention to try and avoid dogs with Kyte, Cougar, and Paloose blood which is quite nearly every breeding Tamaskan in the US (except for those that are approved outcrosses, and perhaps those breeders who do not disclose their dog's pedigrees online).

I am considering studding him with other US breeders dogs, but for my own purposes, I would like a female who does not contain these concerning bloodlines.

I know that an Alaskan Noble Companion Dog has been approved in the past and was wondering if a Vlcak might also be approved...Or if people had opinions or resources regarding outcrossing potentials.

Thanks!

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:46 pm

oliviagonzalez wrote:However, it was brought to my attention to try and avoid dogs with Kyte, Cougar, and Paloose blood which is quite nearly every breeding Tamaskan in the US (except for those that are approved outcrosses, and perhaps those breeders who do not disclose their dog's pedigrees online).
Not just in the US, pretty much every Tamaskan Dog in existence has either, or all of those, dogs in their pedigree. It is unwise to linebreed (too closely) on these dogs because they have produced offspring affected by epilepsy/addison's, but avoiding breeding with them completely basically means letting the breed go extinct... Your male has neither of these dogs in his pedigree so in my opinion that makes him an excellent breeding partner to those females who do have these dogs in their pedigree.
oliviagonzalez wrote: I am considering studding him with other US breeders dogs, but for my own purposes, I would like a female who does not contain these concerning bloodlines.

I know that an Alaskan Noble Companion Dog has been approved in the past and was wondering if a Vlcak might also be approved...Or if people had opinions or resources regarding outcrossing potentials.
I know US breeders aren't too eager when it comes to the Vlcak. There's actually two breeding females in the US and one in Canada from an outcross mating with a Vlcak (pups were imported from an outcross litter in the Netherlands). A lot of outcrossing is done in the Netherlands and Germany with all sorts of breeds/mixes (Saarloos, Vlcak, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, AWD, German Shepherd, White Swiss Shepherd, Belgian Shepherd etc.) so perhaps importing a female from one of those litters would be good.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:17 pm

Right, I understand that nearly all Tams have these lines, which is why (of course, pending on health scores) I'd be delighted to stud my dog.

But because of these known risks associated with the BLs, shouldn't it mean that more outcrossed dogs need to be incorporated into the mix?

I'm curious which 2 females are from a Vlack outcross (I'm still very new to the community). I'll definitely look into the breeders in the Netherlands and Germany!

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:18 pm

Other than relation to Zephyr pups, your boy is also related to the Sequioa pups from Tarheel Tamaskan.

I agree with what Wolfsbane mentioned - he shouldnt be restricted to outcrosses only. He may be the only choice available to some females, regardless of their location in the world.

Looking into outcross litters in Netherlands may be the most beneficial to the US. But I think nearly all Tamaskan lines have Paloose, Cougar and/or Kyte in the mix somewhere within 5 generations.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Wolfsbane » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:28 pm

oliviagonzalez wrote:Right, I understand that nearly all Tams have these lines, which is why (of course, pending on health scores) I'd be delighted to stud my dog.
Great :)
oliviagonzalez wrote:But because of these known risks associated with the BLs, shouldn't it mean that more outcrossed dogs need to be incorporated into the mix?
Yes and no. We do need outcross but breeders need to find a balance. Too much outcrossing and the breed will become very inconsistent (which you already see now), temperament and type being all over the place. It is important to keep the inbreeding coefficient low, this way the chances for 'bad' recessive genes to come together is slim. Breeding 100% healthy dogs however is just not possible, there is always some risk. There are more ways to keep the COI to a minimum besides outcross... I still see Tamaskan breeders doing repeat matings and breeding litter siblings to the same stud dog, that's just not beneficial to the genetic diversity.
Also, outcross does not always equal healthy. For example: in the United States, Arrow the Hedlund Husky was used as outcross. This breed we were told had no health issues (seriously, EVERY dog breed has health issues, every single living being on this planet carries some 'bad' genes). He sired 3 Tamaskan litters and then we found out one of those pups is a carrier of Von Willebrands Disease. This health issue has not been found before in the Tamaskan... but now an outcross was used and we have carriers of this disease (mom was tested and clear so it came from dad). So bringing in outcross has the risk of bringing in new health problems too.

In Europe a lot of outcrossing is done at the moment and I do think they should consider more Tamaskan x Tamaskan matings. The US however is doing a lot of close linebreeding and I personally think some combinations are too risky. It might be easier though to import fresh blood from Europe, like your male, than to find new outcross dogs.
oliviagonzalez wrote:I'm curious which 2 females are from a Vlack outcross (I'm still very new to the community). I'll definitely look into the breeders in the Netherlands and Germany!
Elin van 't Aelse Sluske, owned by Tarheel Tamaskans: http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/el ... lse-sluske
Evwyn van 't Aelse Sluske, owned by Double J Kennels: http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/ev ... lse-sluske

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:40 am

Glad to have more information regarding reasons to and not to consider outcrosses! I definitely see your point.

I sent Tarheel a message regarding Elin as I believe they plan on breeding her this year sometime.

Thank you so much for all of the insight! :D

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:53 am

Wolfsbane wrote:For example: in the United States, Arrow the Hedlund Husky was used as outcross. This breed we were told had no health issues (seriously, EVERY dog breed has health issues, every single living being on this planet carries some 'bad' genes). He sired 3 Tamaskan litters and then we found out one of those pups is a carrier of Von Willebrands Disease. This health issue has not been found before in the Tamaskan... but now an outcross was used and we have carriers of this disease (mom was tested and clear so it came from dad). So bringing in outcross has the risk of bringing in new health problems too.

In Europe a lot of outcrossing is done at the moment and I do think they should consider more Tamaskan x Tamaskan matings. The US however is doing a lot of close linebreeding and I personally think some combinations are too risky. It might be easier though to import fresh blood from Europe, like your male, than to find new outcross dogs.
I thought Koda also tested as a carrier of vWD?
http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/hawthorne-katiyana
https://www.mydogdna.com/crm/index.html ... /disorders
Wolfsbane wrote: Elin van 't Aelse Sluske, owned by Tarheel Tamaskans: http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/el ... lse-sluske
Evwyn van 't Aelse Sluske, owned by Double J Kennels: http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/ev ... lse-sluske
I was under the impression that Double J (J&J) aren't registered with the TDR. Unless they are seeking to re-register as a breeder with the TDR?

There is also a TDR registered Rayza/Yukon male in Canada with Oslett Tamaskan (http://www.tamaskan-database.com/dog/en ... lse-sluske) I am not sure how close she is to you (olivia) though.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Wolfsbane » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:48 am

Yes Koda tested as a carrier, and then later on also one of his sisters.

Double J isn't registered with the TDR as far as I know. But some of the pups they bred, and are now used for breeding (Darwin & Kya), were.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:44 am

**OFF TOPIC**
Wolfsbane wrote:Double J isn't registered with the TDR as far as I know. But some of the pups they bred, and are now used for breeding (Darwin & Kya), were.
Then unless Double J re-registers with TDR, any litters they produce won't be TDR registered. With that said, I personally can't recommend a TDR dog being bred to a non-TDR registered breeder. Especially since Chewy is supposed to be conditionally registered with the TDR due to being from an outcross litter...unless, Double J seeks full registration for Chewy only, but doesn't re-register their kennel with TDR (does that even work? lol).

I am not sure if Darwin and Kya's littermates were also fully registered with the TDR, but if not, then Darwin and Kya are the exceptions; not the standard.

**END OFF TOPIC**

olivia, you may want to consider importing another Tamaskan from overseas that has minimal Tamaskan blood in her if your goal is to help US/Canada lines - probably something that is more distantly related to the US/Canada lines (think 3-4 generations away). Rahne's database is a fantastic resource. If you ever have questions, you can always post on the forum or in any of the various facebook groups (Tamaskan Dog Register, All About Tamaskans, or the Tamaskan Dog Debate Group).

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:52 pm

arianwenarie wrote:**OFF TOPIC**
Wolfsbane wrote:Double J isn't registered with the TDR as far as I know. But some of the pups they bred, and are now used for breeding (Darwin & Kya), were.
Then unless Double J re-registers with TDR, any litters they produce won't be TDR registered. With that said, I personally can't recommend a TDR dog being bred to a non-TDR registered breeder. Especially since Chewy is supposed to be conditionally registered with the TDR due to being from an outcross litter...unless, Double J seeks full registration for Chewy only, but doesn't re-register their kennel with TDR (does that even work? lol).

I am not sure if Darwin and Kya's littermates were also fully registered with the TDR, but if not, then Darwin and Kya are the exceptions; not the standard.

**END OFF TOPIC**

Yes, I know that they are no longer associated and think it's best that I just steer clear from them.

olivia, you may want to consider importing another Tamaskan from overseas that has minimal Tamaskan blood in her if your goal is to help US/Canada lines - probably something that is more distantly related to the US/Canada lines (think 3-4 generations away). Rahne's database is a fantastic resource. If you ever have questions, you can always post on the forum or in any of the various facebook groups (Tamaskan Dog Register, All About Tamaskans, or the Tamaskan Dog Debate Group).
I ended finding that both Booma Tamaskan in Australia and Mystic White Tamaska in Croatia were having approved outcrosses this summer. Due to flight time and prices my boyfriend and I are going with a pup from Croatia. I have used the tamaskan-database.com for a lot of research. The tamaskan being used in this outcrossing is Gru (Sylvaen Ninjato) who is also from an outcrossing. Unfortunately there are a lot of health concerns still associated with his mother's pedigree, but I'm hoping with the double outcrossing these issues won't be passed on.

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:21 pm

oliviagonzalez wrote:I ended finding that both Booma Tamaskan in Australia and Mystic White Tamaska in Croatia were having approved outcrosses this summer. Due to flight time and prices my boyfriend and I are going with a pup from Croatia. I have used the tamaskan-database.com for a lot of research. The tamaskan being used in this outcrossing is Gru (Sylvaen Ninjato) who is also from an outcrossing. Unfortunately there are a lot of health concerns still associated with his mother's pedigree, but I'm hoping with the double outcrossing these issues won't be passed on.
Mystic White Tamaska is located in the Netherlands. Marisca will be driving to us in Croatia to breed her female Tam, Tasha, with our co-owned stud dog, Gru (Sylvaen Ninjato).
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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by oliviagonzalez » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:43 pm

Sylvaen wrote:Mystic White Tamaska is located in the Netherlands. Marisca will be driving to us in Croatia to breed her female Tam, Tasha, with our co-owned stud dog, Gru (Sylvaen Ninjato).
Whoops! Thanks for clearing up that confusion! :)

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Re: Suggestions for Outcross Breeds

Post by Wolfsbane » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:56 pm

I think a girl from Tasha x Gru is a good choice :)

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